I think the difference is in what, exactly, is rewarded.
I agree that the top badge is to award to the top healers. It should come in some reasonable time (the current time is way off, and even the 5 year goal of the Devs is off).
But the issue is really: What does it award?
If the badge awards someone who does nothing but heal, then I think the badge fails in the goal of all badges, which should be to improve the game experience.
Thus, the badge should award a highest performance healer for doing what they do. Not healing 24-7, but healing at a decent rate typical of normal gameplay.
Is that rate 80% of the potential max? 50%? 10%? I dunno.
Yes, this means someone can do out and get it 25%, twice, or maybe even 10 times faster if they play differently. So what? If they want it that bad, they can choose to either have patience or to force their build/gameplay to adapt - at least it's their choice, there is not just the 1 path to the badge requiring the build/gameplay to be used a certain way. It's very similar to, say, someone with an accolade at a very low level. Just because it's typically earned in a given time doesn't mean someone won't get it faster, and there's nothing really wrong with that.
You're trying to set the bar using the 2 extremes: max rate times max time. I'm saying that the bar has to be set a little lower because the goal is "in normal play" and max rate is decidedly not "normal play". Yes, this opens up a variety of total times, but I'm not seeing what they would be a problem. There's already a variety of times to get the badge since the max rate would vary by AT and powerset - I think it's better to set the badge at the middle of the range of AT/Powers who heal instead of pinning the number to one end of that range and having everyone else still working overtime.
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OK, so let's say it's broken. So what? Why should they do anything about it now? Why should they change the rules? What's the benefit of doing so?
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The same reason they should fix the broken Robo Surgery units, or missing badge graphics, or costume clipping or bad flight pose? Professionalism, pride in one's work, and credibility? Take your pick.
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That's not an unreasonable reason to change it, but don't we have to consider that in a game, changing the rules shouldn't be something done lightly?
Take balance changes. There the rules change because it's (we assume) hurting the game for a set or power to be too weak or too strong. In the case of Empath and the other epic badges however, does that same harm exist that justifies changing the rules mid-stream?
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I would only consider the harm done in "changing the rules" to be an important consideration if it was possible that the change undermined the effort someone placed into earning the badge that was as high as the badge was intended to require. If every single person that currently has or is working towards Empath was expended far less effort than the badge was intended to require, then no one would have a legitimate case for saying that their effort was trivialized if the requirements were lowered.
Far larger changes to the game have been made with much higher in-game consequences than that in the interests of improving the state of the reward system as a whole. The largest one was probably the massive increase in XP for completing missions that was instituted back in Issue 1, which probably sped up levelling via missions by a significant amount. Certainly, changing the amount of XP you earn has the potential to devalue the effort other players put into levelling, but that change was almost unanimously considered positive.
In any event, I believe this is a purely theoretical concern at least for Empath, because I find it difficult to believe that a significant percentage of the players that have it would object to its requirements being lowered (without being made trivially low), and they themselves are an incredibly small percentage of the player population to begin with.
Personally, I think the entire concept of "Epic" badges is incompatible with the game as a whole, not because they are set too high, but because they are awarded to characters. It therefore sets an extremely strong preference towards players that play a single character constantly, over people who are playing in the mode that is encouraged (but not mandated) within the design of the game: playing alts.
Its not unreasonable to have a reward in the game that might take thousands of hours to achieve, but its less reasonable to require one that takes thousands of hours on one character to achieve. Given the current badge system, its the only alternative for Epic badges.
But if I could make a change to the badge system as a whole (and this is part of my general notion of how the badge system should be organized, which I've mentioned previously), Epic badges should be awarded to players across all their characters, much like Supergroup badges are awarded to SGs across all their members. I think it makes a lot more sense for three reasons:
1. Some badges are easier to get with some characters than others: some are almost impossible to get with some characters. The current system penalizes people arbitrarily based on character creation. A system where Epic badges were awarded across characters would actually encourage people to play a diverse set of alts to get badges: badges would improve the replayability of the game via alts, without penalizing single-character players any more than the current system does.
2. Epic badge requirements could be arbitrarily high, because progress could be made on them indefinitely so long as the player continued to play the game, regardless of what characters they played.
3. Epic badges would be distinguished separate from normal character badges, and thus like SG badges they could be considered "not part of the set" for badge completists who attempt to get every possible "character badge" for a particular alt without being frustrated at being unable to get the Epic-class badges either immediately or with their preferred badge hunting character.
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Is that rate 80% of the potential max? 50%? 10%? I dunno.
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I don't know precisely either, which is why I said specifically:
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That would set Empath at about 100 million points healed. I'm not saying that is what I would set Empath to, but it would be my point of reference for what I would consider "the ballpark" for an epic maximum heal badge. By my estimates, Empath is currently ten times higher than what I consider a reasonably high value, [u]far outside the margin for error.[u]
I would want to factor in actual player healing statistics, which the devs can generate but we won't have prior to the City Vault going on-line.
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What would give me a hint as to what a proper load factor would be are actual in-game healing statistics: not just the top healer, but the approximate shape of the healing stat curve; what percentage of players are near the top, and how sharp the falloff was.
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When did that happen? I'm aware of the devs making balance changes, but I'm not aware of them ever just making a change because it "made sense". In fact, we argue on these boards all the time for things that "make sense" but the devs don't change the rules to accommodate that.
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There are numerous examples. The change to the original mentor badges is a good example. They changed it when it didn't make sense due to the sheer amount of time required to lk someone. Unfortunately they totally screwed it up and went way under, but thats another story. The original numbers didn't make sense. They changed it. The rest is history.
The only thing worse than devs making bad decisions is the hoard of fanboys and bootlickers that keep cheering them on.
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But if I could make a change to the badge system as a whole (and this is part of my general notion of how the badge system should be organized, which I've mentioned previously), Epic badges should be awarded to players across all their characters, much like Supergroup badges are awarded to SGs across all their members.
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Wow. That makes way too much sense. I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned yet. (That I have seen anyway)
I really really love that idea.
This may have been said already but I don't know since I just scanned most of the looooooong posts in this thread, but what about the people that have already earned the badges? I agree with the OP, the original parameters for the badges are absurd. However, for those that did sacrifice their time to earn the badges in their original, and apparently intended, form, what do they get if the badge requirements are changed? To me, if I earned Empath for instance, and suddenly the requirements changed, not only would I get pissed about the change but I would also worry about what future changes might hold and their repercussions.
I make this argument with the realization of the changes made for Zookeeper and the non-existent negative impact that adjustment created. However, that's a difference of 9000 Rikti monkeys, not millions of hit points healed. The prestige of earning the badge would be greatly lessened IMHO, and I say this while simultaneously wishing it were easier to earn the badge.
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This may have been said already but I don't know since I just scanned most of the looooooong posts in this thread, but what about the people that have already earned the badges? I agree with the OP, the original parameters for the badges are absurd. However, for those that did sacrifice their time to earn the badges in their original, and apparently intended, form, what do they get if the badge requirements are changed? To me, if I earned Empath for instance, and suddenly the requirements changed, not only would I get pissed about the change but I would also worry about what future changes might hold and their repercussions.
I make this argument with the realization of the changes made for Zookeeper and the non-existent negative impact that adjustment created. However, that's a difference of 9000 Rikti monkeys, not millions of hit points healed. The prestige of earning the badge would be greatly lessened IMHO, and I say this while simultaneously wishing it were easier to earn the badge.
[/ QUOTE ] A few people with Empath have stated they wouldn't mind if the requirements were lowered. It's not something everyone agrees on, but nothing ever is. I think the majority is there. Regardless, in the case of Empath, I don't think the devs should really care about hurt feelings. At all. "Oh my, I AFK farmed using a known bug in order to get a badge that would be otherwise impossible, and am now angered that the devs made the badge possible to get the way it was intended to be achieved. Oh woe is me." ...Yeah, I think the devs would be laughing.
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This may have been said already but I don't know since I just scanned most of the looooooong posts in this thread, but what about the people that have already earned the badges? I agree with the OP, the original parameters for the badges are absurd. However, for those that did sacrifice their time to earn the badges in their original, and apparently intended, form, what do they get if the badge requirements are changed? To me, if I earned Empath for instance, and suddenly the requirements changed, not only would I get pissed about the change but I would also worry about what future changes might hold and their repercussions.
I make this argument with the realization of the changes made for Zookeeper and the non-existent negative impact that adjustment created. However, that's a difference of 9000 Rikti monkeys, not millions of hit points healed. The prestige of earning the badge would be greatly lessened IMHO, and I say this while simultaneously wishing it were easier to earn the badge.
[/ QUOTE ] A few people with Empath have stated they wouldn't mind if the requirements were lowered. It's not something everyone agrees on, but nothing ever is. I think the majority is there. Regardless, in the case of Empath, I don't think the devs should really care about hurt feelings. At all. "Oh my, I AFK farmed using a known bug in order to get a badge that would be otherwise impossible, and am now angered that the devs made the badge possible to get the way it was intended to be achieved. Oh woe is me." ...Yeah, I think the devs would be laughing.
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I have Immortal on my mastermind and that MM is now on the quest for Empathic. I wouldn't object at all if either requirements were lowered.
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I have Immortal on my dominator I wouldn't object at all if either requirements were lowered.
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Gratz on 500 redside badges, ir0x0r!
I could insert my subrants about Master Thief and Vet rewards; but I think those have both been beaten into the ground. So, I'll stick with expressing my admiration that somebody finally made it redside.
Personally, I would like it if the devs took a look at the +HP increase powers affecting the damage badges' progresss. If that was fixed then I don't care how high the requirements are for the epic damage badges.
The Influence earned and heal badges on the other hands, I could do with a decrease in requirements.
In the Arena of Logic, I fight unarmed.
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Gratz on 500 redside badges, ir0x0r!
I could insert my subrants about Master Thief and Vet rewards; but I think those have both been beaten into the ground. So, I'll stick with expressing my admiration that somebody finally made it redside.
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>.>
<.<
...Well, I'm CLOSE...:P
SadysCHICK ALL the Badges! (I can get. 1396)
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Epic badges aren't a bad idea...Empath is pretty ridiculous though.
My Empath/Psy is about a third to Medical Specialist after over a year's play. Nowadays, I do most of my 'healing' in the Arena...but not with gladiators, with players.
I expect in a 10 minute Arena match I can heal upwards of 3,000-4,000 hit points with Absorb Pain countering spikes on Blasters and such.
I MAY get Medical Specialist in a few months.
I will NEVER get Empath...on my EMPATHY DEFENDER, unless I do things outside the design of the game (massive farming with gladiators).
If you want "Epic" badges, Master of Statesman's/Recluse isn't a bad starting point. The 10,000,000 damage one is pretty hefty too, considering it's needed for a villain accolade.
But when you get to a billion or several billions...then you're encouraging farming, lots of it...not much 'epic', character wise, about that.
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MadScientist just posted this in another thread, but it probably should have gone here 
:
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We just received a great smoothing of the XP curve to help people get to the top level in a more reasonable amount of time and more even amount of effort.
Should the same logic be applied to a Heal Badge earning curve where there is way too much time spent getting over certain hurdles to the next badge, and not enough people are succeeding in getting to the top level?
I know some will reply that they see no problems. Well there was no problem with getting to 50 before, plenty of people were there. Yet the Devs still smoothed out the curve. So it's possible that something is currently not-broken and yet still worth improving.
anyways, just at thought.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
I thought this dead horse had long since rotted away
In short
- Epic Inf, Heal, and Dmg badges suck and should be lowered
- Even most people who have the top badges in those categories think they should be lowered
- Devs have yet to express any interest in changing them
- Blah blah blah
- Yada yada yada
After playing exemplared to 6 of my wife's 50's (yes went from 2-50 on all of them), doing numerous repeatable missions (since I don't have any more real contacts), occasional outdoor hunting, TF's and Trials, I'm finally less than 2 ticks away from Leader! I'm guestimating around 40 mil to go with the amount I've gained since my last tick.
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I thought this dead horse had long since rotted away
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ahhh.... irony. this is why I put it in a new thread.
just can't win. this idea goes nowhere, I guess.
which is sad. because I really thought that if something as un-broken as XP could get all sorts of fixes to help players achieve certain goals better it does sound like there'd be a parallel. I'm not looking to rehash the arguments, I was thinking I'd found a new "in" to get Positron to at least listen to the arguments.
Well on the plus side the XP "smoothing" does make the inf badges a little eaiser.
Not all that much, but a bit.
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I thought this dead horse had long since rotted away
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It isn't dead until fixed. I prefer to think it is still in the hospital.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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I thought this dead horse had long since rotted away
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It isn't dead until fixed. I prefer to think it is still in the hospital.
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Or perhaps the glue factory....
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Sad 
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Well on the plus side the XP "smoothing" does make the inf badges a little eaiser.
Not all that much, but a bit.
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Yes Inf badges are a bit easier, also now that we have a Market and thus a NEED for spending money on our toons, the question now is: do the inf badge requirements need to be lowered?
As far as the Healing and Damage badges go: yes these still need to be looked at. Empath and the medic badges I think should be looked at first since I think Empath is perhaps the most broken one of all the Epics
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Back up a second. If the average gamer plays 10 hours/week.
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You quoted my own pre-response to that comment:
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In my opinion, 500 would be too low for the last healing badge, unless you subscribe to the belief that at least for anyone for which it was achieveable at all, all badges should be achievable in reasonably short periods of time by casual players. I don't think I subscribe to that specific restriction on [u]all[u] badges
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Did you skip over *my* response to that theory?
Let me sum up what I said above in different terms:
If the average gamer plays 10 hours a week, and you think the badge should be achievable in some given time (you stated 2 years), then do you think the gamer should do nothing but chase the badge for that given time frame?
Do you want the gamer to do nothing but heal for 10 hours a week for 2 years? I don't think a gamer would keep their subscription that long just to log on an click heal. So if they're healing at 40% of that rate, because of inefficient teaming, exemping, playing alts, messing around with holiday content, etc., then we're back to seeing 5 years of "normal play" in order to get the badge.
They may put in 1100 hours of play, but the badge should not be for 1100 hours of healing if your goal is 2 years. That's irrational to ask someone to forgo the rest of the game for that length of time.
So in the 1100 hours of play, is 500 hours of that spent healing an OK number for you?
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"Do you think the gamer should do nothing but chase the badge for that given time frame?"
If they want it that fast, they'll have to. I thought I was clear, but since I wasn't, I'll be as precisely direct as I can.
1. I specifically stated that if you believe all (or a reasonable majority of) players are supposed to be able to get all badges, then the healing badges are broken at all levels since most powerset combinations do not have healing ability. The fact that everyone can get aid other is irrelevant: forcing a specific build onto players is significantly more restrictive than forcing specific play strategies on players to achieve any goal in the game: from a design perspective, anything you're willing to require specific builds to achieve, you can't construct good arguments for not requiring special play to achieve either (in fact, the first implies the second anyway).
2. Once you explicitly allow that the healing badges are acceptable, you've eliminated the argument that they should be achieveable by the majority of the playerbase. It is now a reasonable question to ask whether it should be easily attainable by all qualified characters, or if it is acceptable to be achievable only by the highest performing minority of them. This is taken completely for granted as obvious, but its not an obvious question anymore: you've already ruled out most players from ever getting the badges.
3. If you allow that the badge's intent is to reward extremely high performance healers, it *should* be calibrated to what's achievable by the best healers under *their* best performance. And there are players who predominantly heal during teamed play. If not 100% of the time, then a significant percentage of the time. Their performance is relevant to a discussion of a high performance badge.
4. If you don't believe Empath is intended to be a high performance badge for high performance healers, but rather a high healing target for all healers to achieve, then asking what the performance of the healers are is practically irrelevant. Its a question of pure preference: how much effort do you believe any player should "devote" to earning the badge. However, since that is a preference argument, its self-consistency numerically is not persuasive: it only suggests the position is not illogical. But while it advocates a change, it doesn't state why the current situation is wrong and needs changing.
5. I can construct an argument for why the current situation is wrong that isn't subjective: given any reasonable objective for the badge other than "make it so high its essentially unachievable short of exploiting game mechanics anomalies" I'm pretty sure I can argue its set far too high. So that's the argument I'm taking, since its says why the current setting is wrong, not just why I'd prefer it a different way.
I think even *this* is not hitting the point on the head hard enough, so I'll be even more direct:
If the badge is intended to reward the highest performance healers, everyone else will consider the effort required to get it unreasonable. So in fact, if its intended to be a genuine high performance reward, it *must* ultimately have unreasonable requirements, to at least some players. The only question is how many players will think so: it will always be non-zero.
And just to reiterate my position: if it was me, I would not have added *any* healing badges to the game, at least in the form they are currently in. But that's a completely different question than asking how I would address them, if I was in a position to alter them, now that they are already here.
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