Tundara, you apologize for not doing the Devs work?
Unless you are a red name you do not have the power to make any changes. I have seen the wisdom and creativity of tankers largely ignored for over 3 years and have yet to see a red name comment on whether Ice secondary is even being looked at.
We designed the Brute if you will recall. Yes, right here in this forum and instead of giving it to tanks - they gave it to Villains.
So no, I don't log onto test and I don't try and change something unless as with blasters Castle steps in and says:
Give me some ideas.
Until then - it is working as designed - until its not working as designed.
Tundara, you're at the point I reached a few months back. The "I'm sorry that despite all the good points we've made, nothing got done" phase. The truth is, it's not your fault. You've done a great job of herding cats here, and don't have anything to apologize for. It's not your fault.
Now, you know I respect you, and know that I feel you're doing a great job on trying to get changes for Ice Melee that are, quite frankly, needed for the set. That said, I do want to point out that a few of your conclusions I do not feel are correct, if I may.
[ QUOTE ]
It seems like without a constant whip the other Ice Melee tanks are content to sit silent. I'm very disappointed.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is disingenuous at best. I really don't think that's the reason why we've gotten more quiet recently. It's not that without a whip (to use your metaphor) we stop working, it's that after a while our backs start to harden and the whips lose their bite. We no longer fear them.
There's been a version of the Ice Melee thread here for over 6 months now (I think). That's a long time to continue the same discussion. Even if we were changing points slightly, the gist of the topic has been the same, and burn out is rampant. Many of us may just need a break. Whip us all you want, but we're tired, and it may not hurt any more. But again, that is not your fault (I'll get to who's fault I think it is at the end).
[ QUOTE ]
I even did something I knew so little about and am terrible at; Did the Math and Crunched Numbers. Yes, as often as not I goofed, didn't carry a decimal point, and got it wrong. But hey, I friggin dropped out of remedial math for a reason. Still, I pushed onwards even when I was giving myself migraines trying to figure out how to balance the set. At least back then I felt like it was worth it and I wasn't alone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just wanted to take a step aside here and say thank you for doing this. I did make a lot of difference. As another person who hates math, I really do thank you and Redlynne for doing all that stuff.
[ QUOTE ]
So, I just want to thank a few people quickly. Molar_Mauler, Ice_Ember, Ice_Knight, Wonderslug, and of course, Aett_Thorn. Thank you all so much for your support, ideas, and time over all three threads.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here again I think is one of the problems. The people mentioned above, you, and Redlynne (who has quickly become a very respected member of the /Ice Melee community in my mind) are pretty much it. I mean, /Ice Melee is such an underutilized set in the game, and even on the forums, that after a while, it just becomes us talking to ourselves. I mean, I love you all, but we're pretty much just preaching to the choir here.
Maybe we need a devil's advocate, or even just a troll that argues with us. Because right now, it's pretty much all of us saying "yup, it needs a'changin'."
[ QUOTE ]
No one person or Otter can do this alone. For a long while I felt I was alone during the final few pages of 2.0 and now when Redlynne needed support I abandoned her.
[/ QUOTE ]
I hope she doesn't feel this way. You've done more than any of us on this matter, and that is to truly be applauded. You should not feel bad about this. These forums are not life, and should not be treated as such. Things get in the way of posting. It happens to all of us. Don't beat yourself up for things that happen here when you're out in the real world.
[ QUOTE ]
But I just can't do -THIS- anymore.
[/ QUOTE ]
And like I said before, welcome to my life. It just took you longer to get there than me. I've been fighting this fight for almost three years now. You want to know how many positive changes I've seen happen to Ice Melee: 0.
And this brings me back to who I think is really at fault for the Ice Melee threads dying: The Devs. I don't mean this in any way as calling them out, but we have heard next to nothing from them on the matter. I know that several of us have PMed them on this matter, but really, we needed more from them. I know that _Castle_ is working with Blasters and Defiance now, but quite frankly a post or two from him in one of these threads explaining what the situation was, and whether he would even use the data were were giving them would have gone a long, long way, I feel. I mean, it's great to toss ideas back and forth at each other, but without feeling like the Devs even care, it feels a lot like tilting at windmills.
We're worn out. We need a break. Give us two months, and we'll start a 4.0 version or something. I bet you responses will pick up then. But right now, I think we all just need a break.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe we need a devil's advocate, or even just a troll that argues with us. Because right now, it's pretty much all of us saying "yup, it needs a'changin'."
[/ QUOTE ]
One of my current new projects is an Ice/Ice tanker. And I have never been accused of being shy...
Juzam
Tanker aficionado
Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.
Im not paticularly fond of ice melee. Its lackluster, kind of like mace. It feels generic. I agree, something needs to be done to bring it up to snuff. The devs went out of thier way to bring everything low in the name of "balance" and at least one year later very little is balanced. The devs have shuffled off at least one member of thier staff(i wouldnt imagine it being a large staff) if not more to work on Coh2 or whats known as Marvel Universe, so not even the fan boi's can actually expect much to get done.
The best Tanks can do is post videos of Ice melee decimating large spawns of Ai, and winning all the team pvp battles to even get ice melee thought of being looked at. That and beating stalkers senseless since thier whinning and clamouring for Dev attention isnt helping anyone.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe we need a devil's advocate, or even just a troll that argues with us. Because right now, it's pretty much all of us saying "yup, it needs a'changin'."
[/ QUOTE ]
One of my current new projects is an Ice/Ice tanker. And I have never been accused of being shy...
[/ QUOTE ]
Shy, no. Balanced against other secondaries, especially in the high levels, no.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe we need a devil's advocate, or even just a troll that argues with us. Because right now, it's pretty much all of us saying "yup, it needs a'changin'."
[/ QUOTE ]
One of my current new projects is an Ice/Ice tanker. And I have never been accused of being shy...
[/ QUOTE ]
Shy, no. Balanced against other secondaries, especially in the high levels, no.
[/ QUOTE ]
It will be a bit before I can come to my own conclusions. I don't like to offer opinion until I have some experience to argue from.
Juzam
Tanker aficionado
Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.
This is like asking the dev to buff Stalkers in pve. NO ANSWER. NO HOPE.
I suggest you change to another set to play. Ice Melee is reserved to those who want to be gimped. Trust me, there are quite a few players who just play "gimped" sets. 
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
[ QUOTE ]
This is like asking the dev to buff Stalkers in pve. NO ANSWER. NO HOPE.
I suggest you change to another set to play. Ice Melee is reserved to those who want to be gimped. Trust me, there are quite a few players who just play "gimped" sets.
[/ QUOTE ]
What a great attitude!
Juzam
Tanker aficionado
Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.
[ QUOTE ]
I go away for just a few days, and look what I come back too. The thread's buried several pages down. No talking, discussion, bouncing ideas, just the silence of defeat.
[/ QUOTE ]
And here I thought that was actually my fault for actually giving something so concrete and complete that no one could in their own mind(s) encompass the totality of it all ... and therefore didn't really know what to say. I don't in any way blame you Tundy, for the current state of affairs.
[ QUOTE ]
You know what, I think this is it. I'm done with Ice Melee.
[/ QUOTE ]
And in a quiet, unwatched corner of Paragon City ... a bouquet of beautiful flowers starts to wither and die, shriveling on the stem, as they pass into shadow ... and the long night of disappointment begins anew.
/emote cry
[ QUOTE ]
At least back then I felt like it was worth it and I wasn't alone.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're not alone, Tundy. You're not.
[ QUOTE ]
Molar_Mauler, Ice_Ember, Ice_Knight, Wonderslug, and of course, Aett_Thorn.
[/ QUOTE ]
/emote salute
[ QUOTE ]
As for Redlynne, well, I feel really sorry for her. She has put in a ton of effort on her latest ideas and they have been by and large ignored by everyone, myself included.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, just because I could crank that gigantic pile of info out in a single day doesn't mean that I think people should be able to absorb and fully understand it all in about the same amount of time. It's a LOT to try and encompass all at once, and probably the only real way to get a good grasp of what it all "means" would be to playtest it so as to get a "feel" for what happens. So I figured that it might take a few days for people to get around to trying to assimilate all the data and put together the interlocking pieces (trust me, it's designed as a somewhat unified whole) so as to understand the subtle yet fundamental underlying shifts in gameplay and performance.
Short answer: it wasn't simple to do, so I didn't assume it would be simple to understand. Just take your time. I'll still be here in case anyone wants to chat about it, and I am (still) very much wanting to hear point-vs-counterpoint on what works vs what doesn't.
[ QUOTE ]
I could claim burn out, but that's no excuse.
[/ QUOTE ]
It may not be an excuse, but it's good way of explaining. Heck, it took me most of a day's free time to write everything up, and it would be presumptuous on my part to expect everyone else interested in the state of Ice Melee to stop playing the game just as long to listen to what I have to say.
So don't lose heart Tundy. I'm a patient person. After all, I played MA/SR without damage enhancements until the mid-40s on Redlynne (go go No Get Hitsu!) back in the pre-ED days, so it's not as if I suffer from Short Attention Span Theatre.
[ QUOTE ]
The least I should have done was really read them and said if I felt she was still on the right track, or if there were grevous flaws. She deserved a lot better then to be largely ignored.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're forgiven Tundy. It's okay. You're forgiven.
[ QUOTE ]
No one person or Otter can do this alone.
[/ QUOTE ]
And you're not alone. You're not.
[ QUOTE ]
For a long while I felt I was alone during the final few pages of 2.0 and now when Redlynne needed support I abandoned her.
[/ QUOTE ]
Like I said ... I can be patient. I'd rather you take your time and think things through than try to rush things. No rush.
[ QUOTE ]
I feel like I've failed not just her, but the entire community.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, I'm not going to let you take all that on your shoulders alone.
/powexec_name Taunt
You have received Catch a Breath from Redlynne.
You have received Respite from Redlynne.
You have received Breakfree from Redlynne.
Rest up Tundy, and come back into the fray when your toggles are up again. I can Fight The Good Fight ... but it just isn't the same without you, ya know?
Besides ... who else can I talk fashion with (for hours at a time)? 
[ QUOTE ]
It's only now thinking back over this summer and spring, at all the Fixing Ice Melee threads that it seems like I was in a way the leader the community rallied around.
[/ QUOTE ]
The first rule of leadership is:
Earn respect before commanding it.
The community rallied around you Tundy because you earned our/everyone's respect. It also helped that you knew what you were talking about ... ... unlike some people (such as myself).
[ QUOTE ]
Still, even though my math was weak and I didn't do some of the exhaustive number gathering and crunching, it feels like I was the Mother for the movement. Encourging, pitching in, propping things up when they faltered.
[/ QUOTE ]
Everyone has their own unique talents and skills. Mine just happen to be game mechanics (and the rules lawyering thereof) and superheroic/supervillainous fashion sense. You've got more "people powers" than math powers perhaps, but that hardly "disqualifies" you from being a valued, trusted and admired member of the community. Far from it in fact.
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I'm wrong and am just over blowing my role in the threads over the last few months. Maybe.
[/ QUOTE ]
In one sense, you're not ... and in another, you are. It's not that you (personally) stopped posting, it's that everyone else kinda sorta took a holiday from posting and the well dried up all on its own.
[ QUOTE ]
I can't pour my heart and soul into the fight and feel like I am alone. That is exactly how I felt at the end of 2.0. So, not good-bye, rather throwing in the towel on the fight.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's hard to go on ... feeling like you're screaming in an empty room ... with no one to hear you.
[ QUOTE ]
I am really sorry I couldn't get you all the changes the set needs.
I am sorry.
[/ QUOTE ]
NOT YOUR FAULT.
Keep the flame of faith alive, Tundara ... you aren't a soloist on this one.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
[ QUOTE ]
Besides ... who else can I talk fashion with (for hours at a time)?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, you can try with me, but be forewarned, my idea of good fashion is a t-shirt, jeans and sandals. Underwear, while nice, is not mandatory. 
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Besides ... who else can I talk fashion with (for hours at a time)?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, you can try with me, but be forewarned, my idea of good fashion is a t-shirt, jeans and sandals. Underwear, while nice, is not mandatory.
[/ QUOTE ]
No longer....the toughest tanker primary is being released next issue: Burlap underwear! If you can get through 50 levels of that then you truly are hardcore.
Juzam
Tanker aficionado
Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.
Dont apologize for a dev not addressing the needs of Ice Melee. We have discussed this set for I dont know how long about how it underperforms when compared to the other sets.
Ice melee sucks.
The dev's dont give a rats behind that ice melee sucks.
take energy melee for single target damage
take fire melee for aoe damage
take stone melee for control and single target damage
take mace and axe for concept
take ice for an aoe sleep power at lvl 38 which is out done by another aoe sleep power at 41.
take ice melee if you wnat you highest damaging attack at lvl 35 which does the same damage as other sets lvl 4 attack power
take ice melee if you dont want a true aoe attack power
take ice melee if you dont want a large cone attack power
take ice melee if you want you aoe damage aura to out damage your entire attack set
take ice melee if you want the fire epic power to out damage your entire attack set
take ice melee if you want to, by why after reading this would anyone actually want to?
I still think that one particular dev has a hard on for Frozen crapcicle and that is why we still dont see any changes to the set after three friggin years. (granted, I have only been here since I3 and 30 monthes... but the set still sucks.)
I knew I should have rolled a fire/fire tanker instead (and at this point, ice/fire is quite a bit better imo....)
YMMV---IMO
Ice Ember
QR
I have not followed every thread about Ice Melee but what makes everyone think the Devs are not looking at the set?
Sorry if this question has been asked/answered, it just seems the Devs have their hands full with Dual Blades, Willpower, fixing defiance, Halloween event and all of i11 content just to name a few.
Maybe it's on their list?
[ QUOTE ]
QR
I have not followed every thread about Ice Melee but what makes everyone think the Devs are not looking at the set?
Sorry if this question has been asked/answered, it just seems the Devs have their hands full with Dual Blades, Willpower, fixing defiance, Halloween event and all of i11 content just to name a few.
Maybe it's on their list?
[/ QUOTE ]
why bother to fix old broken sets when they can gives new broken sets?
granted, i am happy that tanks and scrappers are FINALLY getting new sets... but the 30 minutes to fix ice melee should have been done quite a while ago.
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe it's on their list?
[/ QUOTE ]
This is actually the last we've heard from them on the matter, pretty much. And this is after several months of talking amongst ourselves and PMing them.
And yes, we know that they have other things going on, but in reality, it's not like we sprung this one them. I know that I've seen Ice Melee threads for about 3 years now, and it's deficiencies. Frozen Aura threads and changes for about the same amount of time. It should have been 'on their list' for a long time now. That it hasn't graduated from that list in all this time is a big problem in my eyes.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
The problem isn't a new one. So, these new issues you've brought up aren't relevant.
Unfortunately, its seems the devs feel certain powersets work just fine, despite anything that's been brought to the table.
I commend anybody who spends hours trying to get powersets or even powers looked at. I certainly don't have it in me to do this. I just play something else. Sad part is, alot of folks feel this way about the game overall, and end up leaving because of it.
People give me static for rolling new alts all the time. My reasoning is because it's what keeps the game interesting. New content is nice, but I prefer playing from a different view point constantly. I wish they would take a closer look at Ice melee, so I would be more inclined to give it a longer try. But it doesn't have any serious redeeming qualities that draws people to it like other sets. I give massive props to all you who have spent alot of time trying to get Ice melee looked at. It's sad that it appears they just don't give a crap. 
Don't I know you???
I personally have not been involved in this discussion as I do not have any experience with /ice tanks.
But I like others in this thread have given up on trying to get constructive ideas across to the devs. Why? Because they clearly do not think there is a problem and therefore have no intention of responding to our concerns.
Maybe when a RED NAME decides to get involved in the discussion /ice tankers will make themselves known, until then its like shoveling pooh against the tide. [pardon my language]
Unfortunately most older MMO development teams are to concerned with attracting a mythical audience who doesnt play, but will once we add this new content
Juzam
Tanker aficionado
Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.
To be honest, I think the problem lies in the fact there are a number of sets (across many ATs) that require a Dev's touch, i.e. to be fixed and Ice Melee is one of them.
[ QUOTE ]
The problem isn't a new one. So, these new issues you've brought up aren't relevant.
[/ QUOTE ]
I was not aware. I just thought the devs worked on issues, etc. months in advanced and had no idea this had been an issue for so long (only a 15 month vet).
I am going to bow out since I have not played an Ice Melee tanker (only /axe and /em) and cannot provide any counter-points. Thanks for answering my questions.
[ QUOTE ]
Well, you can try with me, but be forewarned, my idea of good fashion is a t-shirt, jeans and sandals. Underwear, while nice, is not mandatory.
[/ QUOTE ]That is entirely the wrong attitude. You see, as long as you have clean underwear, it doesn't matter all that much whether your jeans are clean.
Alt-itis stole my soul!
The Annual Paragon City Gauntlet Marathon - Arc ID: 352887 (feedback appreciated)
Current Project: nothing specific, just general badge hunting right now.
I agree with what some have said...sit back, take a break, come back and fight the good fight again when you're rested. I can understand the discouragement, for sure...but I think ice melee COULD be such a cool set, it needs champions. Unfortunately I'm not qualified, I don't think, especially compared to the ottergal
You did much better than I did. I gave it up as hopeless a long time ago.
*Hugs*
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
I believe we have been complaining about ice melee since day one. At least in those days ice melee's slick was good to mix with fire armor's burn patches.
So, we've always known that ice is underpowered, and I really think the devs know it too. They just don't think it's worth their time to try to fix it.
I bet the dev realize the issue already, so the work is not wasted. Concerning whether and when the set will be fixed, it's not really something we can control.
Maybe, one thing you can do is to keep a record of the ice melee issue/suggestion list, and various arguments with those headache-inducing maths. When the forum purges old threads, you can re-post it such that the information will not be gone. And I'm sure that suggestions to buff ice melee will come up occassionally, it will be nice if we can always point people to your issue/suggestion list.
*sigh*
I go away for just a few days, and look what I come back too. The thread's buried several pages down. No talking, discussion, bouncing ideas, just the silence of defeat.
You know what, I think this is it. I'm done with Ice Melee. It seems like without a constant whip the other Ice Melee tanks are content to sit silent. I'm very disappointed. For months I tried to spur discussion, keep thread after thread going. I even did something I knew so little about and am terrible at; Did the Math and Crunched Numbers. Yes, as often as not I goofed, didn't carry a decimal point, and got it wrong. But hey, I friggin dropped out of remedial math for a reason. Still, I pushed onwards even when I was giving myself migraines trying to figure out how to balance the set. At least back then I felt like it was worth it and I wasn't alone.
So, I just want to thank a few people quickly. Molar_Mauler, Ice_Ember, Ice_Knight, Wonderslug, and of course, Aett_Thorn. Thank you all so much for your support, ideas, and time over all three threads. I wish I could givce all of you a basket of cookies for the help you were back in the golden age of 'Fixing Ice Melee'.
As for Redlynne, well, I feel really sorry for her. She has put in a ton of effort on her latest ideas and they have been by and large ignored by everyone, myself included. I could claim burn out, but that's no excuse. The least I should have done was really read them and said if I felt she was still on the right track, or if there were grevous flaws. She deserved a lot better then to be largely ignored.
To every other Ice Melee tanker out there who has been here for most of Fixing Ice Melee One and Two; :disappointment:
No one person or Otter can do this alone. For a long while I felt I was alone during the final few pages of 2.0 and now when Redlynne needed support I abandoned her. For this, I am deeply sorry. I feel like I've failed not just her, but the entire community. It's only now thinking back over this summer and spring, at all the Fixing Ice Melee threads that it seems like I was in a way the leader the community rallied around. No, I was far from alone and had excellent help (All the people I thanked above). Still, even though my math was weak and I didn't do some of the exhaustive number gathering and crunching, it feels like I was the Mother for the movement. Encourging, pitching in, propping things up when they faltered. Maybe I'm wrong and am just over blowing my role in the threads over the last few months. Maybe.
I guess in a way this is a good-bye thread, though it isn't that really. Afterall, I do still play. I will continue to come to the Tanker forum. But I just can't do -THIS- anymore. I can't pour my heart and soul into the fight and feel like I am alone. That is exactly how I felt at the end of 2.0. So, not good-bye, rather throwing in the towel on the fight.
I am really sorry I couldn't get you all the changes the set needs.
I am sorry.
-Tundara
=. .=