Um, wow. I am speechless. Completely totally speechless. Well, obviously not really, but you get the point. Thank you so much Castle for the info and response. I can't say enough how happy just hearing that there is a minute possibility of some changes has made me! 
/em gives Castle a massive Otter hug.
And 100+ Posts since yesterday, yowza! I'm going to go through and read them all, then I'll get back to ya all. Might take me a bit.
d=@_@=b <-- Stunned by turn-out double otter thumbs up.
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my only losses were in SG v SG events and my 1 on 1 against Pohsyb's Ill/Kin Controller.
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/em flex
\o(^_^)o/
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/ZOMG! I got 2 Devs at once!
/em Flex2
/em Victory
Mace and Invul tankers, eat your hearts out. 
d=^_^=b
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Someone suggested in this thread that a possible reason for datamining showing that Ice Melee tankers underperform less than expected is because many Ice Melee players don't even take all the Ice Melee attacks, supplanting them with power pool attacks (aka air superiority, boxing).
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Speaking of which, has it struck anyone else that the period of worst performance for /ice ends at 45? That is, I suspect not coincidentally, the earliest you can possibly take and slot any of the three single-target APP blasts.
tundara just can't affect the fact that she's overpowered.
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tundara just can't affect the fact that she's overpowered.
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Am Not!
*One hit KO's an AV*
>_> ... <_<;; Whooops?
=^_^=
I think most of /Ice's real issues would go away if Frozen Aura turned into AA instead. The chance to confuse would adda lot of damage mitigation.
Even better would be making the Tier 9 a PbAoE version of Ice Storm. Man, that power ROCKS!
Arcanaville, this post on How To Get The Devs To Listen should be expanded into a guide and placed in Forum Guides.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Tankers, as a whole, do better than average
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I would love to know how you measure this. Deaths? Debt? XP/S?
Somehow I doubt its anything that I use to value an AT.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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The problem with most mathematical experiments I see here in the forums is that they are measuring the extremities of performance. The datamining I do shows how players are actually performing in the "reality" of the game. The two are related, but there is often a vast gulf between what a set is capable of and what it is typically asked to do in gameplay.
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The reason we do that is because you (the Devs) when you talk about how you balance a Powerset seem to suggest you do so at the extremes of lvl 50. Is that wrong?
I ask because I would love to seem some discussion about "normal" builds and "normal" AT performance.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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[Veruca Salt]
But I want it NOW!!!
[/Veruca Salt]
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Ugh! Can we get "Veruca Salt" added to the forum filter please?
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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_Castle_ wrote:
Ice Melee does well at all power levels
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
LOL.
And Kheldians don't suck.
And the check's in the mail.
Also, We are from the Government - we are here to help.
Well, if we're going to go about it this way, might we want to start coming up with a list of the data we'd like to see, or how we would go about getting the data, since we won't be able to see it?
It seems like we've gone from showing the Devs our math to making sure they have the numbers we'd be looking at if we were doing this.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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ice melee is stupidly overpowered with that ice patch. not a thing should be changed. that's basically control for clearing mobs as is.
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thanks for actually reading the thread... are you retarded?
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I like how just because I disagree with you, I'm retarded and a troll.
yes, ice patch makes the set. the massive slows put ice melee on the top for actual tanking, since it lowers incoming damage toward you. it makes for the perfect tanking set. hence it needs no fixing.
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Are you talking Ice melee or ice armor... the slows from ice melee do very little at slowing incoming attacks. Frost has the biggest slow of the set, and without range enhancements, it wont affect more than two or three if lucky. Even with three damage/range HO's, getting more in the short cone is hard at best.
Is is the single target attacks that provide all the damage mitigation that you speak of? Please tell me how FF, IS, and GIS reduce the damage coming in.
I did not call you a troll, just wondered if you are retarded. I do wonder if you have actually played ice melee???
The set is not stupidly powerful, not by any means. There have been three recent threads about ice melee, so feel free to post your evidence to back up your statement.
(and... look at the hyperlink in the sig...)
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
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Arcanaville, this post on How To Get The Devs To Listen should be expanded into a guide and placed in Forum Guides.
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Seconded! Actually, Arcana has posted a few posts recently about how the devs think and how to advocate for change. I'd compile them into a guide, starting with the one in this thread.
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_Castle_ wrote:
Ice Melee does well at all power levels
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
LOL.
And Kheldians don't suck.
And the check's in the mail.
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Whoa, Khelds don't suck.
Guess I'm the minority, my Fire/Ice seems powerful enough to me. Not expecting blaster type damage lvls or controller lvl abilities, but he lays mass waste fast. Granted I only use him to herd and as far as that goes he's a impressive force for those that have him seen him in action. I just can't see all the negatives for Ice Melee. Do I Wish I had a AOE besides the epic? Yeah of course, but man that would be overkill. Just my opinion.
Boycot Ice Melee....
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Guess I'm the minority, my Fire/Ice seems powerful enough to me.
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I think that's the point, and has been heavily discussed in the 3 threads on Fixing Ice Melee. No one is debating Fire/Ice isn't fine in the dmg department, but that's mainly due to the one trick pony of Ice Patch+Burn.
Someone suggested datamining Ice Melee's performance after *excluding* Fire/Ice. Seems like a good place to start.
Let me add: fixing the pause after GIS is more of a bug than a balance issue IMO. If GFS was fixed, so should GIS...and fast.
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_Castle_ wrote:
Ice Melee does well at all power levels
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
LOL.
And Kheldians don't suck.
And the check's in the mail.
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Whoa, Khelds don't suck.
Guess I'm the minority, my Fire/Ice seems powerful enough to me. Not expecting blaster type damage lvls or controller lvl abilities, but he lays mass waste fast. Granted I only use him to herd and as far as that goes he's a impressive force for those that have him seen him in action. I just can't see all the negatives for Ice Melee. Do I Wish I had a AOE besides the epic? Yeah of course, but man that would be overkill. Just my opinion.
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I currently have all of the single target attacks and frost from ice melee, and soloing without burn or blazing aura is horribly slow. from my test (in the other thread) it takes twice as long to solo without them just using the ice melee attacks.
a burninator with fireball will go even faster, which is why i am respecing the swords out and getting pyre epic back.
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
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Goes against everything I've seen in the game. I've seen /Stone tankers out control me, and most every other tanker secondary can out-damage me. Based on my experiences in the game, I don't get how the above is true at all. The mathematical experiments we've run in versions of Tundara's thread don't back it up either.
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The problem with most mathematical experiments I see here in the forums is that they are measuring the extremities of performance. The datamining I do shows how players are actually performing in the "reality" of the game. The two are related, but there is often a vast gulf between what a set is capable of and what it is typically asked to do in gameplay.
Edit: Also, the quote you referred to is across all AT/Powerset combinations. */Ice outperforms many other AT/Powerset combinations.
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Umm, I see no denial that ice melee is underperforming for tanks. When it comes to all powerset combinations I would definatly put it at the low end of mid range as well. However, that doesn't mean its going to be popular with tanks that have significant defense already and every other tank melee set is outperforming in offense.
So why so much problem with improving Ice Melee? A rarely played set may have survivability, but if no one wants to play it, then it adds little to the game.
I'm mystified by this preference to create new sets over improve existing sets. Players love their Alt-itis, and any reasonably good buffs and people want to play it like a whole new set. Look at the Fire armor when it recieved a single power buff, a lot of fire tanks we're created since players had a little extra motivation to try it.
Seriously, If 1 or 2 rarely played sets recieved a few buffs every issue, a lot of players would be simply ecstatic. Since players haven't been playing it, it's practically a new set that doesn't require a lot of animator/modeller/programmer time to add. Just play-tester time to check game balance.
Another thing that baffles me, if all this data mining is so good, why can't it find out that players are avoiding specific sets/AT's. The measure of success in any AT isn't survivability, damage or whatever, it's simply whether or not the players want to play it. Just like the measure of success for any game is whether or not players want to play it.
It seems that in a game where Alt-itis is considered the best feature in the game, having sets that the general game population doesn't want to play is one of the biggest flaws. Of course I may be biased.
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_Castle_ wrote:
Ice Melee does well at all power levels
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
LOL.
And Kheldians don't suck.
And the check's in the mail.
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Whoa, Khelds don't suck.
Guess I'm the minority, my Fire/Ice seems powerful enough to me. Not expecting blaster type damage lvls or controller lvl abilities, but he lays mass waste fast. Granted I only use him to herd and as far as that goes he's a impressive force for those that have him seen him in action. I just can't see all the negatives for Ice Melee. Do I Wish I had a AOE besides the epic? Yeah of course, but man that would be overkill. Just my opinion.
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I currently have all of the single target attacks and frost from ice melee, and soloing without burn or blazing aura is horribly slow. from my test (in the other thread) it takes twice as long to solo without them just using the ice melee attacks.
a burninator with fireball will go even faster, which is why i am respecing the swords out and getting pyre epic back.
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From the Ice melee, I only took Frost, build-up, ice patch, and greater Ice sword. Yeah I'm fire and fire epic, so maybe I am sitting alil better than some of the other types. Looking now If I did have to rely on Ice as my main attacks I would be sucking. Right now It's more a support function. Normally Ice patch Fiery Embrace+Build, Burn, Frost (With dam.range maxed) and Fire Ball, will take down a whole mob.
Arcanaville,
You and I both know It is very hard to debate someone's results if you can't actualy see the results, the methods they were collected and see if you arrive at the same conclusion. Other wise its the old trust us...we know better....Cyrptic is hardly a transparent organization and they never seem to get in discussions of why they made what choices and that makes for a lot of dis-infranchisement.
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Castle did not "fix" fire tanks until he started to actually play a fire/fire tank.
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My Fire/Fire tank was made before I started working at Cryptic. I just have a serious case of Alt-itis. Also, when were were doing Arena testing in I3, my character of choice was an Invul/Ice Tanker and my only losses were in SG v SG events and my 1 on 1 against Pohsyb's Ill/Kin Controller.
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I want to echo this. Ice Melee is surprisingly decent in PvP. This is Arena only as in Zone PvP nullifies it's advantages. Also, Ice Melee is best against other Melee based toons and Master Minds. Ice Patch is an excellent tool for removing the MMs Pets.
Is it as good as EM or SS? No.
Does it do alright? Yes.
But Arena PvP is not the best or sole measurement of a set. Also, anything that uses Kiting will just pwn an Ice Melee tank in Arena or Zone PvP. Ice only does well after the slows have been stacked a significant amount. As I said a few times in the various Fixing Ice Melee threads; Ice Melee is alright despite it's terrible DPA because it lowers your opponents DPA to be less then even yours.
To Paraphrase J-Man after a one on one fight (he is Inv/SS): "Pie Tundy! I hate fighting you as I can't do anything!"
=^_^=
NOTE Chilling Embrace was also a big contributer to the -Recharge and Speed effects accounting for as much as half of the slows stacked on average.
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my only losses were in SG v SG events and my 1 on 1 against Pohsyb's Ill/Kin Controller.
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/em flex
\o(^_^)o/
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/ZOMG! I got 2 Devs at once!
/em Flex2
/em Victory
Mace and Invul tankers, eat your hearts out.
d=^_^=b
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Ok now you are just herding! Stop it before the entire tanker forum gets nerfed!
I'm inclined to believe my own personal opinion, yes. My mathematics I don't fully trust, but if it's flawed, I'm sure it will be pointed out by more knowledgeable individuals. He's seen my points. I haven't seen his. He tells me such-and-such is this way. I tell him such-and-such is that way, and try to show him why. I'm guilty of not doing that in my original posts, but in subsequent posts, I have attempted, and possibly failed to rectify that. I'm told "Stalkers have issues, but are generally fine". I run basic, very simple mathematical calculations that show very interesting results for burst damage, and noone pays any attention to that - including Castle (not to mention yourself and any real forum numbercruncher). I try to factor in the variables that a Developer must take into account, but anything I run shows a rather glaring power disparity between the two "cousin" Archetypes - Stalkers and Scrappers.
I don't see his numbers. He sees mine. That is where a lot of mistrust comes from, from the playerbase. And that is why I do not give his datamining the benefit of the doubt. I give it the respect it deserves, because those calculations do determine what will happen. Whether they're right or wrong is open to speculation, but the power they have over developer minds is undisputed.
As for:
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So from his perspective, he has no reason to disbelieve his own datamining research, over the subjective judgements of any particular player.
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I suppose I can understand why he thinks that way. Which is why I've tried, and apparently failed, to bring his attention to what my analysis has shown. I doubt I'd believe a random forum-goer either, but I would hear him out. All evidence thus far has shown he hasn't read a single thing I've written. If I had access to his datamining, I could potentially understand his perspective more, but as that is strictly forbidden, I don't exactly have much hope of seeing his analysis'.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.