I will be starting an Invuln/Ice tank soon and I WILL have fun and make it work.
Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...
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It's been a while since I've looked, and I'm kind of taking too long of a work break right now, but what set bonuses of real value to a Tanker are in the sleep sets?
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Hibernation
Sleep Dur / +Health / + Smashing Res / - Recharge Time
Induced Coma (Chance for Recharge Slow proc IO)
Sleep Dur / +Health / Debt Prot / + Move / + Melee Def
Lethargic Repose
Sleep Dur / + Energy Def / + Smashing Def / + AoE Def / + Toxic Res
Call of the Sandman (Chance for Self Heal proc IO)
Sleep Dur / +Health / +Endurance / - Recharge Time / + Toxic/Psionic Res
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So, nothing that you can't get from having a useful power instead of Frozen Aura. 
=. .=
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FA is useful! How else are we supposed to wow the newbies in Atlas?
Edit -> and to channel GA for a second, those hellions aren't going to get the Top Dog badge by themselves!
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Whoa! For a second there I thought I was standing someplace else covered in Ice, and for some reason I was holding a Carp.
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
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I will be starting an Invuln/Ice tank soon and I WILL have fun and make it work.
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YES!! Company!!
*pst*
We have a secret hand shake too 
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The right build and the right missions are what makes for a good farm. I don't have much opinion on the effectiveness of Ice Melee in regular missions since truth be told I haven't used him in that manner in along time. My Fire/Ice was breed to herd and it's something either me or the build do very well. I run farming missions with him often and I'm just not seeing how you say it's a bad herder.
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it does ok 5 at a time. my spines can hit the entire spawn.
i created mine in the I3-I4 ice patch/burn hey day and I have herded entire maps before. fire/ice is not the most effective or efficient herder.
ice/fire or fire/fire do better imo. With the recharge bonuses out of ice/fire, I think that one is better atm.
ice melee should be a more effective tanker secondary. FA, which should be the reason to take the set, but it is not worth taking.
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
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Goes against everything I've seen in the game. I've seen /Stone tankers out control me, and most every other tanker secondary can out-damage me. Based on my experiences in the game, I don't get how the above is true at all. The mathematical experiments we've run in versions of Tundara's thread don't back it up either.
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The problem with most mathematical experiments I see here in the forums is that they are measuring the extremities of performance. The datamining I do shows how players are actually performing in the "reality" of the game. The two are related, but there is often a vast gulf between what a set is capable of and what it is typically asked to do in gameplay.
Edit: Also, the quote you referred to is across all AT/Powerset combinations. */Ice outperforms many other AT/Powerset combinations.
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Castle, I honestly think that the fundamental flaw of data mining is that it looks at the whole spectrum of players. Your average CoH player, who frankly isn't very good, will do far better on a tank because it is the hardest AT to die on. Another way to put it is a FoTM is not broken unless in the hands of a good enough player.
I did get a hearty laugh at the best PvP toon being an inv/ice, it lent us insight into why pvp is so misunderstood by the devs, apparently you are all n00bs. Either that or you possess a sublime sense of sarcasm that I sir salute you for.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
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It's been a while since I've looked, and I'm kind of taking too long of a work break right now, but what set bonuses of real value to a Tanker are in the sleep sets?
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Hibernation
Sleep Dur / +Health / + Smashing Res / - Recharge Time
Induced Coma (Chance for Recharge Slow proc IO)
Sleep Dur / +Health / Debt Prot / + Move / + Melee Def
Lethargic Repose
Sleep Dur / + Energy Def / + Smashing Def / + AoE Def / + Toxic Res
Call of the Sandman (Chance for Self Heal proc IO)
Sleep Dur / +Health / +Endurance / - Recharge Time / + Toxic/Psionic Res
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So, nothing that you can't get from having a useful power instead of Frozen Aura.
=. .=
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So the answer is no, there's nothing worth taking Frozen Aura for in Invention Sets. I wonder....
Would it be a viable compromise if we were given a Sleep Set or two with one of the following procs?:
-25% Chance for Head Asplode
-20% Chance for Ice Nunchunks (120 second duration)
-10% Chance for Hellfrost Pet Spawn
its just another case of the devs being totally clueless to their own game mechanics. It sure as hell wouldn't be the first time that's happened.
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Castle, I honestly think that the fundamental flaw of data mining is that it looks at the whole spectrum of players. Your average CoH player, who frankly isn't very good, will do far better on a tank because it is the hardest AT to die on. Another way to put it is a FoTM is not broken unless in the hands of a good enough player.
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That's not a fundamental flaw, that's a fundamental difference of opinion.
There are many people who believe that the powersets should be balanced for their performance when handed to some arbitrarily skilled player, who presumably gets something close to optimal performance out of the set. Those are simply presumed to be the players that "count" when it comes to balancing, and all other players' performance is presumed to be unimportant relative to that standard.
The devs don't have that opinion. They attempt to balance the powersets based on the average skill level of the players actually currently playing the game, and that means the average performance of a set across all players, both the best and the worst, is relevant. I'm not sure I would do it that way (actually, I'm sure I wouldn't do it that way), but its not fundamentally flawed.
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I am really sorry I couldn't get you all the changes the set needs.
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First, let me echo what your fellow players have said -- you have nothing to be sorry about.
Ice Melee does well at all power levels -- it's never the worst, and never the best. Datamining shows that the points it does worst is in the 38-45 range, which is where the Tier 9 power normally comes into it's own. Since Ice Melee players typically ignore their Tier 9, this can be seen as the cause.
So, why does Frozen Aura get ignored? There've been many threads on this here in the forums, the gist of which is that a PBAoE SLEEP doesn't add anything to a Tankers Repertoire. Since any Aura power interrupts Sleep effects, and Tankers essentially *must* run auras to fulfill their roll, it is counterproductive.
So, what's the solution? Currently, there isn't one. Tankers, as a whole, do better than average, and this includes Ice Melee. My focus is on those AT's who, as a group, underperform. I may be able to take some time to make some changes during the I11 beta, or afterwards, but it entirely depends on how things are going. No promises!
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An idea just struck me: could you make a power which imposes a penalty to mobs' resistance to mez powers? That might be better for the /Ice T9, at least on teams, than a PBAoE Sleep is, for the reasons you've observed.
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could you make a power which imposes a penalty to mobs' resistance to mez powers?
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I believe its possible to debuff critter mez resistance, which would make all mezzes (or at least mezzes of the types being debuffed) last longer. Almost anything that can be buffed can be debuffed, and mez resistance can be buffed (i.e. accelerate metabolism).
However, I think you might have meant mez protection, not resistance, and the answer is also yes, and interestingly enough, one of the examples of where this actually exists is very relevent to /Ice tankers in theory: Benumb, the cold domination power, debuffs mez protection (weaken is the other power I'm aware of that does this). This also has an odd side effect (depending on your point of view): it simultaneously debuffs the target's own mez durations (mez duration and mez magnitude are both affected by something called mez strength which is what is increased by mez enhancements in individual powers, and debuffed by benumb).
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I'm not entirely sure it works that way. I recall it actively weakening each effect produced by the target. For instance, if I were to, say, hit a Fortunata Boss with Weaken (Fortunata bosses have an active mez protection toggle that CAN be weakened by, well, Weaken), I'd be able to hold her in (I think) two shots as opposed to the three or four. Either way, it's noticeable.
Whereas if I were to hit a normal boss, I'd still have to hit them twice with a hold to hold them. It doesn't actively work against native mez protection; it simply works against any effects that are actively causing mez protection.
I think your quoted poster was wanting Frozen Aura to actively lower native mez protection. I don't think it's doable. However, an anti-power boost? Sure, it might be interesting.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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I'm not entirely sure it works that way. I recall it actively weakening each effect produced by the target. For instance, if I were to, say, hit a Fortunata Boss with Weaken (Fortunata bosses have an active mez protection toggle that CAN be weakened by, well, Weaken), I'd be able to hold her in (I think) two shots as opposed to the three or four. Either way, it's noticeable.
Whereas if I were to hit a normal boss, I'd still have to hit them twice with a hold to hold them. It doesn't actively work against native mez protection; it simply works against any effects that are actively causing mez protection.
I think your quoted poster was wanting Frozen Aura to actively lower native mez protection. I don't think it's doable. However, an anti-power boost? Sure, it might be interesting.
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You're absolutely right: powers like Benumb can only debuff actual powers, not intrinsic mez protection. So it would mostly work against the mez protection of things with active mez protection, like you mention. However, it still has the additional side effect also mentioned: it would reduce the durations of mezzes that affected critters use. This might be helpful for the specific case of critters that use AoE mezzes: even taunted, they can strike unprotected squishies and mez them, but a weakened mez would wear off much faster.
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The right build and the right missions are what makes for a good farm. I don't have much opinion on the effectiveness of Ice Melee in regular missions since truth be told I haven't used him in that manner in along time. My Fire/Ice was breed to herd and it's something either me or the build do very well. I run farming missions with him often and I'm just not seeing how you say it's a bad herder.
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it does ok 5 at a time. my spines can hit the entire spawn.
i created mine in the I3-I4 ice patch/burn hey day and I have herded entire maps before. fire/ice is not the most effective or efficient herder.
ice/fire or fire/fire do better imo. With the recharge bonuses out of ice/fire, I think that one is better atm.
ice melee should be a more effective tanker secondary. FA, which should be the reason to take the set, but it is not worth taking.
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I created mine back in the i3 days also and yeah it's different, but doable. I herd Warriors 2 groups at a time for about 20+ minions/lts and I promise U , I spend no more than 2-3 minutes a group. I can run the map as fast as any AT with no fear of death. Anybody who has been on one of my runs can tell you, I make it look easy. But as I said the right AT/Build/MAP/Enemies can herd anything effeciently.
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The right build and the right missions are what makes for a good farm. I don't have much opinion on the effectiveness of Ice Melee in regular missions since truth be told I haven't used him in that manner in along time. My Fire/Ice was breed to herd and it's something either me or the build do very well. I run farming missions with him often and I'm just not seeing how you say it's a bad herder.
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it does ok 5 at a time. my spines can hit the entire spawn.
i created mine in the I3-I4 ice patch/burn hey day and I have herded entire maps before. fire/ice is not the most effective or efficient herder.
ice/fire or fire/fire do better imo. With the recharge bonuses out of ice/fire, I think that one is better atm.
ice melee should be a more effective tanker secondary. FA, which should be the reason to take the set, but it is not worth taking.
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I created mine back in the i3 days also and yeah it's different, but doable. I herd Warriors 2 groups at a time for about 20+ minions/lts and I promise U , I spend no more than 2-3 minutes a group. I can run the map as fast as any AT with no fear of death. Anybody who has been on one of my runs can tell you, I make it look easy. But as I said the right AT/Build/MAP/Enemies can herd anything effeciently.
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Okay, now round up the same amount of warriors, and don't use burn. See how long it takes you without that tool at your disposal.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Okay, now round up the same amount of warriors, and don't use burn. See how long it takes you without that tool at your disposal.
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Don't get me wrong, I know Ice Melee by itself is lacking. I just take exception into someone saying you can't herd well with a fire/ice. I know my name has been ranked up on the Punishers list many times when I get the bug.
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Okay, now round up the same amount of warriors, and don't use burn. See how long it takes you without that tool at your disposal.
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Don't get me wrong, I know Ice Melee by itself is lacking. I just take exception into someone saying you can't herd well with a fire/ice. I know my name has been ranked up on the Punishers list many times when I get the bug.
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without burn, it takes at least twice as long using only ice melee attacks and nothing from the epic pool.
My testing in the other thread verified that.
I am currently trying to figure out how to herd Chimera's map w/o a kin. I may just move up through the arc and get to Bobcat or Battle Maiden, they may be a bit easier (faster)
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
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Okay, now round up the same amount of warriors, and don't use burn. See how long it takes you without that tool at your disposal.
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Don't get me wrong, I know Ice Melee by itself is lacking. I just take exception into someone saying you can't herd well with a fire/ice. I know my name has been ranked up on the Punishers list many times when I get the bug.
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without burn, it takes at least twice as long using only ice melee attacks and nothing from the epic pool.
My testing in the other thread verified that.
I am currently trying to figure out how to herd Chimera's map w/o a kin. I may just move up through the arc and get to Bobcat or Battle Maiden, they may be a bit easier (faster)
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Twice as long is an understatement. 3 or 4 times I would think is about right. at least for an Inv/Ice tank.
No AOE's to speak of, Those Minions will take time to get rid of.
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
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without burn, it takes at least twice as long using only ice melee attacks and nothing from the epic pool.
My testing in the other thread verified that.
I am currently trying to figure out how to herd Chimera's map w/o a kin. I may just move up through the arc and get to Bobcat or Battle Maiden, they may be a bit easier (faster)
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Battle Maiden will be your bread and butter. It's perfectly designed for fire/ice. Warriors seem to hold aggro, once you hit the aggro limit and start widdling guys down the ones your aggroed before will come running so its easy to gather more than you can handle. Lot of choke points for the buff up burn/FireBall/DamRnGFrost/ RInse & Repeat. Get a good IO build and you're golden.
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without burn, it takes at least twice as long using only ice melee attacks and nothing from the epic pool.
My testing in the other thread verified that.
I am currently trying to figure out how to herd Chimera's map w/o a kin. I may just move up through the arc and get to Bobcat or Battle Maiden, they may be a bit easier (faster)
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Battle Maiden will be your bread and butter. It's perfectly designed for fire/ice. Warriors seem to hold aggro, once you hit the aggro limit and start widdling guys down the ones your aggroed before will come running so its easy to gather more than you can handle. Lot of choke points for the buff up burn/FireBall/DamRnGFrost/ RInse & Repeat. Get a good IO build and you're golden.
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Chimera's ninja's dont do knockback, so I was contemplating a hover/fly build, with IO's for knockback. It would lower my defense because of my slotting in CJ, but I may drop weave again anyways. The defense, even with the resist/def IO still is not high and makes very little difference.
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
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without burn, it takes at least twice as long using only ice melee attacks and nothing from the epic pool.
My testing in the other thread verified that.
I am currently trying to figure out how to herd Chimera's map w/o a kin. I may just move up through the arc and get to Bobcat or Battle Maiden, they may be a bit easier (faster)
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Battle Maiden will be your bread and butter. It's perfectly designed for fire/ice. Warriors seem to hold aggro, once you hit the aggro limit and start widdling guys down the ones your aggroed before will come running so its easy to gather more than you can handle. Lot of choke points for the buff up burn/FireBall/DamRnGFrost/ RInse & Repeat. Get a good IO build and you're golden.
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Chimera's ninja's dont do knockback, so I was contemplating a hover/fly build, with IO's for knockback. It would lower my defense because of my slotting in CJ, but I may drop weave again anyways. The defense, even with the resist/def IO still is not high and makes very little difference.
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I dropped Weave along time ago and you're a fire/ice w/o Acro or Knockback IOs? Ouch. Chimera's map is not optimal and Caltrops plain ole suck, I would pass. Battle Maidens map is perfect.
The problem many of us have with Ice Melee is that it's a poor melee set.
It is quite simply the lack of single target _and_ AoE attacks we have at our disposal, without having to go outside the set for attacks like Boxing or Air Superiority. And that defeats the purpose of picking Ice Melee. We get two attacks at level 2 and 4, and nothing else until level 28, and that's more of a hold than an attack. Our third actual attack is at level 35.
So for the first 2-35 levels we are relying on two single-target attacks total, unless we delve into power pools. That's nuts.
Let's not forget that one of our three single target attacks is weak in terms of DPS - that's Frozen Fists. And we can't even skip it!
And to top that off we only get one AoE attack.
We'd kill for Ice Sword Circle, and another _legit_ melee attack. And fix Frozen Fists. But we get get two powers that would better fit in Ice Armor: Ice Slick and Frozen Aura. What a rip!
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Also, the quote you referred to is across all AT/Powerset combinations. */Ice outperforms many other AT/Powerset combinations.
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Well, if I can assume that your data mining doesn't look at a single powerset, I can also make the statement that I think it should. If you want to balance your game you need to look at individual powersets and their strengths and weaknesses. I will also assume that your data mining doesn't cover damage per second for powersets, seeing as /Fire and /Super Strength will do double to quadruple damage of /Ice just because they have strong AoEs. There is strong evidence of this, anyone running hero stats can tell you. Assuming that your data mining doesn't look at individual powersets, I will also assume that it doesn't look at individual powers themselves. Ice melee's activations are horrible (as well are mace's and battle axe's). Ice melee also only has one power that does AoE damage, and its a small cone. Every other tanker seccondary has a damaging pbaoe attack, and most of them have more than one damaging AoE attack.
The very fact that Ice melee has little AoE damage means it does not perform as well as any other tanker seccondary. Every other secondary can deal damage better than Ice melee, against one target and against many. This is a fact. Whether or not your mined data can actually show the full potential of powersets or not, it is a fact. Ice melee has the lowest potential of all tanker secondaries, and in my ranking it is the third worst powerset in the game.
Tanker secondaries are not very well balanced at all. They're almost as bad as Blaster secondaries. You have Super Strength and Fire Melee, which both deal huge AoE damage. You have Energy Melee which has massive single target destruction, as well as a very powerful secondary effect. You have Stone Melee with very quick activations and really strong control. Warmace and Battle Axe lack behind these powersets because of their activation times, knockback, and the fact that they're drawn weapons. And then you have Ice Melee, which has lower single target damage than all of the above and the lowest AoE damage of any damage powerset in the game. Its control isn't as good as Stone Melee's, and its secondary effect doesn't come close to /Fire's or /Energy's. Did your data mining tell you all that? It should have because its all facts.
And for an example of how bad ice melee performs in the game here is the whole reason I decided to make this post in the first place:
Today I teamed with a Fire/Ice tanker. We were doing a Rikti mission with generators to kill. Of course the two scrappers were off killing all the generators spawning their mass of ambushes. The tanker was trying to kill groups, and he was doing it very slowly. Since he couldn't kill groups very fast (60+ seconds to kill a group with no bosses) and I couldn't help him because I kept getting stunned (I'm a blaster) and the empathy wasn't buffing anyone because she was dead (destroyed by multiple ambushes) I was forced to run. The tanker couldn't kill fast enough to aggro enemies off of me, and I couldn't kill at all without his protection. Later I quit the team because it was awful. This is an example of how /Ice's lack of performance caused me many deaths and frustrations.
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Also, the quote you referred to is across all AT/Powerset combinations. */Ice outperforms many other AT/Powerset combinations.
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Well, if I can assume that your data mining doesn't look at a single powerset, I can also make the statement that I think it should. If you want to balance your game you need to look at individual powersets and their strengths and weaknesses. I will also assume that your data mining doesn't cover damage per second for powersets, seeing as /Fire and /Super Strength will do double to quadruple damage of /Ice just because they have strong AoEs. There is strong evidence of this, anyone running hero stats can tell you. Assuming that your data mining doesn't look at individual powersets, I will also assume that it doesn't look at individual powers themselves. Ice melee's activations are horrible (as well are mace's and battle axe's). Ice melee also only has one power that does AoE damage, and its a small cone. Every other tanker seccondary has a damaging pbaoe attack, and most of them have more than one damaging AoE attack.
The very fact that Ice melee has little AoE damage means it does not perform as well as any other tanker seccondary. Every other secondary can deal damage better than Ice melee, against one target and against many. This is a fact. Whether or not your mined data can actually show the full potential of powersets or not, it is a fact. Ice melee has the lowest potential of all tanker secondaries, and in my ranking it is the third worst powerset in the game.
Tanker secondaries are not very well balanced at all. They're almost as bad as Blaster secondaries. You have Super Strength and Fire Melee, which both deal huge AoE damage. You have Energy Melee which has massive single target destruction, as well as a very powerful secondary effect. You have Stone Melee with very quick activations and really strong control. Warmace and Battle Axe lack behind these powersets because of their activation times, knockback, and the fact that they're drawn weapons. And then you have Ice Melee, which has lower single target damage than all of the above and the lowest AoE damage of any damage powerset in the game. Its control isn't as good as Stone Melee's, and its secondary effect doesn't come close to /Fire's or /Energy's. Did your data mining tell you all that? It should have because its all facts.
And for an example of how bad ice melee performs in the game here is the whole reason I decided to make this post in the first place:
Today I teamed with a Fire/Ice tanker. We were doing a Rikti mission with generators to kill. Of course the two scrappers were off killing all the generators spawning their mass of ambushes. The tanker was trying to kill groups, and he was doing it very slowly. Since he couldn't kill groups very fast (60+ seconds to kill a group with no bosses) and I couldn't help him because I kept getting stunned (I'm a blaster) and the empathy wasn't buffing anyone because she was dead (destroyed by multiple ambushes) I was forced to run. The tanker couldn't kill fast enough to aggro enemies off of me, and I couldn't kill at all without his protection. Later I quit the team because it was awful. This is an example of how /Ice's lack of performance caused me many deaths and frustrations.
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Let's be fair a bit here...while I agree /Ice needs work in the damage compartment, cuz it's control isn't all that.
However, it seems like you had a bad team. Sure, the ATs together would seem to work, but the teamwork looks like it was lacking.
Those scrappers should of been by the tank. And also, what was the tank doing? IP + Burn?
If I had a Fire/Ice (I don't...I have an Ice/Ice and a Fire/Fire), I'd have been laying down multiple ice patches, with burns on them, then moving to the next group (this is assuming I'm going for aggro management)...taunt thrown here and there (no taunt on my Ice/Ice tho my Fire/Fire does have it).
Now this is also assuming this was more than 17 enemies to begin with...which is past the aggro cap for a tank.
However, I do find multiple IP's help alot. 
...
That being said...so I was doing some missions the other day on my Ice/Ice, with some AOE happy teammates...and I still got a couple of enemies slept with FA, before they were awaken 2 seconds later)
Tho really, I was only using it as an AOE taunt, and it has a cool graphic. Don't know if it actually generates aggro tho?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Small correction RR, but Ice Melee has 3 attacks in it's first tiers. Than has nothing until level 28 (Frozen Touch). Frozen Touch is actually its best ST attack overall. The second best is Frost, which is the sets Cone and only form of quasi-pbAoE.
The set needs another damaging attack. It is my opinion, and everone probably knows it by now, but adding Damage to Frozen Aura is the best answer and kills 2 or 3 birds with one stone. The only potential downside to this depending on the coding is that Damage Procs could break the sleep. The answer is to simply delay the Sleep until after the Procs are checked and applied. I don't know if that is possable though.
=. .=
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It's been a while since I've looked, and I'm kind of taking too long of a work break right now, but what set bonuses of real value to a Tanker are in the sleep sets?
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Hibernation
Sleep Dur / +Health / + Smashing Res / - Recharge Time
Induced Coma (Chance for Recharge Slow proc IO)
Sleep Dur / +Health / Debt Prot / + Move / + Melee Def
Lethargic Repose
Sleep Dur / + Energy Def / + Smashing Def / + AoE Def / + Toxic Res
Call of the Sandman (Chance for Self Heal proc IO)
Sleep Dur / +Health / +Endurance / - Recharge Time / + Toxic/Psionic Res
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So, nothing that you can't get from having a useful power instead of Frozen Aura.
=. .=
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FA is useful! How else are we supposed to wow the newbies in Atlas?
Edit -> and to channel GA for a second, those hellions aren't going to get the Top Dog badge by themselves!
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus