Castle did not "fix" fire tanks until he started to actually play a fire/fire tank.
maybe he will start to play a /ice tank and something will get done to them... but I doubt it.
the Force is weak with ice melee. nothing more to see here.
YMMV---IMO
Ice Ember
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I am really sorry I couldn't get you all the changes the set needs.
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First, let me echo what your fellow players have said -- you have nothing to be sorry about.
Ice Melee does well at all power levels -- it's never the worst, and never the best. Datamining shows that the points it does worst is in the 38-45 range, which is where the Tier 9 power normally comes into it's own. Since Ice Melee players typically ignore their Tier 9, this can be seen as the cause.
So, why does Frozen Aura get ignored? There've been many threads on this here in the forums, the gist of which is that a PBAoE SLEEP doesn't add anything to a Tankers Repertoire. Since any Aura power interrupts Sleep effects, and Tankers essentially *must* run auras to fulfill their roll, it is counterproductive.
So, what's the solution? Currently, there isn't one. Tankers, as a whole, do better than average, and this includes Ice Melee. My focus is on those AT's who, as a group, underperform. I may be able to take some time to make some changes during the I11 beta, or afterwards, but it entirely depends on how things are going. No promises!
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Castle did not "fix" fire tanks until he started to actually play a fire/fire tank.
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My Fire/Fire tank was made before I started working at Cryptic. I just have a serious case of Alt-itis. Also, when were were doing Arena testing in I3, my character of choice was an Invul/Ice Tanker and my only losses were in SG v SG events and my 1 on 1 against Pohsyb's Ill/Kin Controller.
<QR> First post after a Dev!
Thanks for responding Castle.
<QR>
I think that the Devs are definitely having to fight the problem of: The games been going on this way for years now. How can we wipe/replace a power at this stage of the game? In reality I think only effects can be changed a this point.
I doubt a power would ever be replaced at this stage of the game. 3 years ago? Maybe, but now, HIGHLY unlikely. About as likely as a Level 1 fighting Lord Recluse and winning.
_Castle_, first off, thank you for posting on this matter. I do appreciate it.
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Ice Melee does well at all power levels -- it's never the worst, and never the best. Datamining shows that the points it does worst is in the 38-45 range,
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I'd really like to know, if I could, in what level ranges it does the best amongst itself. Not necessarily the best among the sets, but if it's never the best, and never the worst, I'd like to make sure it's not second worst the entire game except levels 1-10 or something like that.
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Tankers, as a whole, do better than average
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I'd agree with this, from playing as or with many tankers. But this:
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and this includes Ice Melee.
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Goes against everything I've seen in the game. I've seen /Stone tankers out control me, and most every other tanker secondary can out-damage me. Based on my experiences in the game, I don't get how the above is true at all. The mathematical experiments we've run in versions of Tundara's thread don't back it up either.
Again, I thank you for your responses, which you were certainly under no obligation to give, but what you're saying seems to go against the opinions and experiences of most people who play /Ice Melee.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Goes against everything I've seen in the game. I've seen /Stone tankers out control me, and most every other tanker secondary can out-damage me. Based on my experiences in the game, I don't get how the above is true at all. The mathematical experiments we've run in versions of Tundara's thread don't back it up either.
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The problem with most mathematical experiments I see here in the forums is that they are measuring the extremities of performance. The datamining I do shows how players are actually performing in the "reality" of the game. The two are related, but there is often a vast gulf between what a set is capable of and what it is typically asked to do in gameplay.
Edit: Also, the quote you referred to is across all AT/Powerset combinations. */Ice outperforms many other AT/Powerset combinations.
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Im not paticularly fond of ice melee. Its lackluster, kind of like mace. It feels generic. I agree, something needs to be done to bring it up to snuff. The devs went out of thier way to bring everything low in the name of "balance" and at least one year later very little is balanced. The devs have shuffled off at least one member of thier staff(i wouldnt imagine it being a large staff) if not more to work on Coh2 or whats known as Marvel Universe, so not even the fan boi's can actually expect much to get done.
The best Tanks can do is post videos of Ice melee decimating large spawns of Ai, and winning all the team pvp battles to even get ice melee thought of being looked at. That and beating stalkers senseless since thier whinning and clamouring for Dev attention isnt helping anyone.
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This is not the attitude that's going to win you support, since I know damn well how weak Stalkers as a whole are, even though you, obviously, do not. However, this isn't the thread for it.
On Topic: I've never played Ice Melee, and hate the concept of Tanks. That being said, I have to wonder if Ice Patch is the thing that's skewing the Dev's opinion of Ice Melee. No other set can cause everything in melee range to permanently flop around like fish. Which just so happens to include Bosses, unlike Stone Melee's Fault.
I'm not saying you guys are wrong and don't need any fixes, but a good chunk of my life is based around trying to figure out what other people think, and I think the above is precisely what the Devs are thinking in regards to Ice Melee: "It's fine, as it has the most mitigation of all the sets." Whether they're right or wrong is not the issue; whether you can PROVE they're wrong is the issue, and making them actually read what you've written is the other.
Edit: And hi Castle! How about going one section up and saying something for Stalkers!
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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The problem with most mathematical experiments I see here in the forums is that they are measuring the extremities of performance. The datamining I do shows how players are actually performing in the "reality" of the game. The two are related, but there is often a vast gulf between what a set is capable of and what it is typically asked to do in gameplay.
Edit: Also, the quote you referred to is across all AT/Powerset combinations. */Ice outperforms many other AT/Powerset combinations.
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I think we're just confused about how a tier 9 power is supposed to be used when its a 'sleep' power instead of some type of damage power like all the others. How should it be used? Hop into a mob, throw it to sleep Minions only for 23 seconds, and then hop to another mob and attack them? Its just a confusing tactic, compared to the High damage ST, or PBAoEs & Cones of the other ATs. A Troller could do that. I think that's all they're saying.
PS. Tell me if i'm wrong.
Is there any chance you can at least give us an update on the Greater Ice Sword animation? Last we heard it had been referred to an animator to look at, and that was several months ago.
I know animation time is at a premium, especially with new sets coming out, but Greater Fire Sword had the exact same animation and received the same fix GIS needs long, long ago--shortly after I7, I believe. And we're on the cusp of I11 now 
edit: It's hard not to feel like there's preferential treatment there, even though I'm sure there's not--especially given that Fire Sword Circle was also tweaked at the same time, whereas Ice Sword Circle was left out in the cold (ha) for considerably longer.
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On Topic: I've never played Ice Melee, and hate the concept of Tanks. That being said, I have to wonder if Ice Patch is the thing that's skewing the Dev's opinion of Ice Melee. No other set can cause everything in melee range to permanently flop around like fish. Which just so happens to include Bosses, unlike Stone Melee's Fault.
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If I recall, Ice Patch only affects 5 targets, and it doesn't rotate through all of them like it used to. It picks 5 and sticks with only those 5 until something dies or walks off of it. (Someone who has actually used IP, correct me if I'm wrong.)
Also, Fault will knockdown bosses. It won't stun them, but it will knock them off their feet. In fact, Stone Mallet, Heavy Mallet and Tremor can knock them down as well. Also, SS can one shot hold a boss, and be perma if slotted that way.
Stone has a lot of control at its disposal... it just costs a lot more endurance.
I think the point is the fact that Ice Patch can do that at all times. While granted, it's only five targets, that's five targets that can essentially be permanently removed from the fight.
As for Stone, while yes, Seismic Smash can remove a boss from the fight temporarily, Freezing Touch can remove one permanently, if given a chance to stack (if my mental math is correct). It's also able to be selected some ten levels before Seismic Smash, which all factors into the Developer Datamining, as shown by Castle's words above.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
It sounds to me like people are asking for something like Shooting Icicles outwards for High Damage PBAoE rather than a sleep power. I admit I've got no plans to create an /Ice tanker, and the tier 9, just seems out of place. If they switched Greater Ice Sword, with FA, and upped Ice Sword a bit damage-wise it would make more flowing sense.
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Also, SS can one shot hold a boss, and be perma if slotted that way.
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I think you meant SM there.
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I think the point is the fact that Ice Patch can do that at all times. While granted, it's only five targets, that's five targets that can essentially be permanently removed from the fight.
As for Stone, while yes, Seismic Smash can remove a boss from the fight temporarily, Freezing Touch can remove one permanently, if given a chance to stack (if my mental math is correct). It's also able to be selected some ten levels before Seismic Smash, which all factors into the Developer Datamining, as shown by Castle's words above.
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Ummm...as was pointed out, SS can take a boss out of the fight permanently (while doing more damage than FT) if slotted for it. FT cannot, as it is lower mag, and the duration is not long enough to keep a permanent hold on most bosses.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Also, SS can one shot hold a boss, and be perma if slotted that way.
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I think you meant SM there.
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SS = Seismic Smash
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I think the point is the fact that Ice Patch can do that at all times. While granted, it's only five targets, that's five targets that can essentially be permanently removed from the fight.
As for Stone, while yes, Seismic Smash can remove a boss from the fight temporarily, Freezing Touch can remove one permanently, if given a chance to stack (if my mental math is correct). It's also able to be selected some ten levels before Seismic Smash, which all factors into the Developer Datamining, as shown by Castle's words above.
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My Seismic Smash can stack and remove a boss permanently, as can everyone's, just like Freezing Touch. And if you look at HO's it is even worse disparity between the two. FT does quite a bit less damage (and over time) and has almost the same recharge, though end cost is way lower.
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
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my only losses were in SG v SG events and my 1 on 1 against Pohsyb's Ill/Kin Controller.
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/em flex
\o(^_^)o/
"We all lose in the end, that is the intention" --Emanuel Lasker
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Also, SS can one shot hold a boss, and be perma if slotted that way.
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I think you meant SM there.
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Probably meant Seismic Smash.
*edit*
I type too slow
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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my only losses were in SG v SG events and my 1 on 1 against Pohsyb's Ill/Kin Controller.
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/em flex
\o(^_^)o/
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Get back in your box!
Edit -> But hi, pohsyb
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
[ QUOTE ]
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I think the point is the fact that Ice Patch can do that at all times. While granted, it's only five targets, that's five targets that can essentially be permanently removed from the fight.
As for Stone, while yes, Seismic Smash can remove a boss from the fight temporarily, Freezing Touch can remove one permanently, if given a chance to stack (if my mental math is correct). It's also able to be selected some ten levels before Seismic Smash, which all factors into the Developer Datamining, as shown by Castle's words above.
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Ummm...as was pointed out, SS can take a boss out of the fight permanently (while doing more damage than FT) if slotted for it. FT cannot, as it is lower mag, and the duration is not long enough to keep a permanent hold on most bosses.
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Then it would need to be slotted for accuracies, -recharge and hold duration, which would destroy its ability to solo efficiently. If people are truly slotting Seismic Smash as a control power, then more power to them. Ice Melee is still going to be controlling more and better, judging from what I've seen.
Like I said, I have no issues with Ice Melee being buffed. I'm simply trying to look at it from a Dev perspective, which is something I've been forced to do very often in the "Stalker Crusade". If a set has a high degree of mitigation, it will usually end up with a low level of damage to balance it. That is, almost certainly, where they're getting their opinion. Ice Melee, undoubtedly, has a high degree of mitigation potential. Arguably more than Stone, in an AoE. I think they simply overcompensated for the mitigation potential, and overly nerfed Ice Melee's ability to inflict damage; which, curiously enough, is the ultimate "mitigation".
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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It sounds to me like people are asking for something like Shooting Icicles outwards for High Damage PBAoE rather than a sleep power. I admit I've got no plans to create an /Ice tanker, and the tier 9, just seems out of place. If they switched Greater Ice Sword, with FA, and upped Ice Sword a bit damage-wise it would make more flowing sense.
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Close, I think ice sword circle (a power they already have) as the tier 9 was what was asked for in the threads long since lost in time.
I think Castle has concisely summed up what the problem is with ice melee, but then said he's not going to do anything about it which is a bit sad. Sounds like he's happy for very few people to play the set.
Btw does anybody know if invincibility breaks sleep ? as if it does, that would make frozen armor broken for every primary except possibly willpower, and broken in almost any team anyway. If it did a slow regardless of whether the sleep was broken it might still be marginally useful.
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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my only losses were in SG v SG events and my 1 on 1 against Pohsyb's Ill/Kin Controller.
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/em flex
\o(^_^)o/
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*LOL*
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
Tundara, you've done good work. More than I ever did for mace. But its not our job to fix things. Devs are paid to do that. We just pay to play. My advice, time to go find something really different from tanks and fall in love with this game all over again.
-Largo
Founder of A.G.O.N.Y. Supergroup on Victory
Member of Thought Sanctum VG on Victory
Member of St0rm Batallion SG on Guardian