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Castle did not "fix" fire tanks until he started to actually play a fire/fire tank.
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My Fire/Fire tank was made before I started working at Cryptic. I just have a serious case of Alt-itis. Also, when were were doing Arena testing in I3, my character of choice was an Invul/Ice Tanker and my only losses were in SG v SG events and my 1 on 1 against Pohsyb's Ill/Kin Controller.
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Thank you for the reply. It is greatly appreciated. (and thanks for clearing it up. From your Fire armor thread, I thought you created your tank then.)
You are one of +/- 5 Invuln/ice tankers, which is a true rarity. What lvl is yours now?
I am currently running a build with all of the attacks from Ice melee except Frozen Aura. It does not compare to Stone melee, and because of set bonuses and insane recharge speed, I only use Heavy Mallet and Seismic Smash and Tremor (Fault if on a team)
Greater Ice Sword seems to actually make the attack chain worse because of the animation. (I am dropping both Swords from my next build, once I can afford the IO's.)
Any hope that GIS will be made into a cone like Head Splitter?
I am keeping Frost, because three dam/range HO's make it usable against more than just two enemies.
Thanks for posting on the subject.
(please fix ice melee 
)
YMMV---IMO
Ice Ember
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Then it would need to be slotted for accuracies, -recharge and hold duration, which would destroy its ability to solo efficiently. If people are truly slotting Seismic Smash as a control power, then more power to them. Ice Melee is still going to be controlling more and better, judging from what I've seen.
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Honestly, I couldn't get a boss even close to perma-held with Frozen Touch until I paired it with the ancillary power pool hold. I slotted FT for damage, because that's what I needed. The hold was a byproduct. I see most people slot that way, actually. So you've got pretty similar slotting between SS and FT. Except, SS can hold a boss in one app, while FT would need two. And SS would still do more damage for the same slotting.
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If a set has a high degree of mitigation, it will usually end up with a low level of damage to balance it.
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I agree with this, I really do. Except, without the tier nine (which even Castle says not many /Ice tanks take), we don't win on control. We win on control efficiency. Stone's controls can hit up to ten. Ice Patch can hit 5. So while it is more permanent, it is not necessarily 'more' control.
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Ice Melee, undoubtedly, has a high degree of mitigation potential. Arguably more than Stone, in an AoE.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would definitely argue the other way on this one. I think Stone is very comparable to Ice Melee in effective control.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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My focus is on those AT's who, as a group, underperform.
[/ QUOTE ]
So is this a hint at future stalker lovin????? 
Now that you have worked on blasters, there shouldnt be any AT in team pve that is in worse shape than stalkers are.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Also, SS can one shot hold a boss, and be perma if slotted that way.
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I think you meant SM there.
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SS = Seismic Smash
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Oh right. Too many powers in this game with the SS abbreviation.
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My focus is on those AT's who, as a group, underperform.
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So is this a hint at future stalker lovin????? Now that you have worked on blasters, there shouldnt be any AT in team pve that is in worse shape than stalkers are.
[/ QUOTE ] Go take your Stalker grievences to their board please. We're fussing about /Ice tankers now here.
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If I recall, Ice Patch only affects 5 targets, and it doesn't rotate through all of them like it used to. It picks 5 and sticks with only those 5 until something dies or walks off of it. (Someone who has actually used IP, correct me if I'm wrong.)
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Ice patch pulses 5 times per second.
Every time it pulses it can hit up to 5 enemies.
It has an accuracy of 1, meaning 75% against even level enemies.
It is auto hit.
It only has an 8% chance of going off.
This means that tops, it will only hit the closest 5 enemies, but also means that it will hit enemies regardless how much defense they have or how high level they are, however it will only do so 8% of the time. This means it hits about once every 10 to 11 ticks, meaning it only may hit every 2 seconds, and then again, only the closest 5.
I think the only pro this power has, is that the 8% is steady depsite the enemy defense or level relative to yours. It has a strong slow that will keep the enemy in the patch, though.
Ironically, looking at it in City of Data, it seems to be the only placed pet attack that does not make enemies run away. What does this means? That only (ironically) burn users can get the most of the power, because burn not only adds damage, but also forces enemies to flee. With the speed debuff, they will be running at one inch per hour and not attacking, not only this, but they will randomly run (AI thing) in different pathing/speeds causing the patch to actually hit more than just 5 targets due to their position changes relative to yours (movement will change who the 5 closest are)
I ponder how ice melee ranks if all fire/ tankers and all the ones that take fire epic were taken out of the datamine results.
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my only losses were in SG v SG events and my 1 on 1 against Pohsyb's Ill/Kin Controller.
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/em flex
\o(^_^)o/
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He lives!
And lemme try that...
d=(^u^)=b
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It has a strong slow that will keep the enemy in the patch, though.
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Well, I know I wouldn't consider a 0.45 second slow effect to be 'strong.' In fact, I didn't even know it existed until you mentioned it and I went to check.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
I'll be brief, since I've already been over this in previous incarnations of this thread 
Ice Patch is powerful, yes, but in no way does it equate to permanently removing things from the fight. Based on empirical testing I did around the time I9 came out, Ice Patch prevents, on average, about 60% of the attacks from "normal" sized enemies and about 70% of attacks from big lumbery things that take forever to stand up (Freak Tanks and Warhulks being good examples). If you want to see my preliminary results and methodology, they're reposted on page 3 of the Fixing Ice Melee 2.0 thread, and the subsequent tests I did more or less confirmed what's there.
To put that 60% in context, during the testing I found that two +1 Cor Leonis Adjutants would kill me before the ice patch tests were complete unless I used Dull Pain and a few greens.
Fault, incidentally, can easily be slotted to stun minions permamently, using no Hasten and only SOs. Lieutenants can theoretically also be permanently stunned, although it's only 50/50 odds to hit mag 3 with Fault.
As for Freezing Touch, the "if given a chance to stack" bit is not trivial. At level 50 it has a base duration of 11.92 seconds. It recharges in 16. Slotting 1 hold/1 recharge Freezing Touch will allow it to stack...for under four seconds...against even cons. A 2 rech or 2 hold slotting will allow even less overlap. In order to make FT nearly perma (again, against even cons only) requires four slots devoted to some combination of hold and recharge. Even then, it will take at least 9 seconds to stack on a boss, compared to the 1.5 second animation time of Seismic.
Four slots is a lot, given that Freezing Touch is the second most powerful attack in the set. Sacrificing that much damage is not a trivial decision.
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It has a strong slow that will keep the enemy in the patch, though.
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Well, I know I wouldn't consider a 0.45 second slow effect to be 'strong.' In fact, I didn't even know it existed until you mentioned it and I went to check.
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it isnt strong, I watch +2's run off of the patch and have to chase them down to finish them off.
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
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Honestly, I couldn't get a boss even close to perma-held with Frozen Touch until I paired it with the ancillary power pool hold. I slotted FT for damage, because that's what I needed. The hold was a byproduct. I see most people slot that way, actually. So you've got pretty similar slotting between SS and FT. Except, SS can hold a boss in one app, while FT would need two. And SS would still do more damage for the same slotting.
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That's true, that's true. However, I'll do a bit of math here.
With two level 50 IO's, Freezing Touch would recharge in 8.69 seconds.
And with three SO's, Freezing Touch lasts 23.36 seconds. That's more than enough to stack it onto a boss. Unless I'm quite mistaken, that should provide enough to perma-hold a +2 boss.
mmm, lemme check my math on that. Yep. Your powers only affect +2's by 80% their normal values, so Freezing Touch would last 18.69 seconds, which is more than enough to stack.
By comparison, Seismic Smash would recharge in 10.87 seconds, and would last 18.48 seconds, and drops to 14.79 seconds when used against a +2. So, slotted for control, you're doing the same thing.
I think you guys have a point that Seismic Smash has more "burst" control, as evidenced by the quick math doodle above, but comparing two powers in a vacuum is undoubtedly going to lead to anomalies. The devs balance the entire sets with one another, as opposed to power vs. power. I shall, again, state that Ice Patch is skewing their analysis of the matter, as it is a permanent control as opposed to the four second knockdown that Fault provides.
So, in essence, I think the most buff you guys will get will be upping Freezing Touch's magnitude to provide the "burst mez" that other sets can. Whether this is right or wrong is entirely dependent on what you folks want: do you want mez and mitigation, or do you want a damage increase?
Edit: This is really great, by the way. You guys wanted a troll to poke at, so I figured I'd oblige. And I get to learn a bit more about Ice Melee, which has always intrigued me. Win/Win, ya?
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
<qr>
Man, nothing stirs up a thread like a dev post.
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I'll be brief, since I've already been over this in previous incarnations of this thread
Ice Patch is powerful, yes, but in no way does it equate to permanently removing things from the fight. Based on empirical testing I did around the time I9 came out, Ice Patch prevents, on average, about 60% of the attacks from "normal" sized enemies and about 70% of attacks from big lumbery things that take forever to stand up (Freak Tanks and Warhulks being good examples). If you want to see my preliminary results and methodology, they're reposted on page 3 of the Fixing Ice Melee 2.0 thread, and the subsequent tests I did more or less confirmed what's there.
To put that 60% in context, during the testing I found that two +1 Cor Leonis Adjutants would kill me before the ice patch tests were complete unless I used Dull Pain and a few greens.
Fault, incidentally, can easily be slotted to stun minions permamently, using no Hasten and only SOs. Lieutenants can theoretically also be permanently stunned, although it's only 50/50 odds to hit mag 3 with Fault.
As for Freezing Touch, the "if given a chance to stack" bit is not trivial. At level 50 it has a base duration of 11.92 seconds. It recharges in 16. Slotting 1 hold/1 recharge Freezing Touch will allow it to stack...for under four seconds...against even cons. A 2 rech or 2 hold slotting will allow even less overlap. In order to make FT nearly perma (again, against even cons only) requires four slots devoted to some combination of hold and recharge. Even then, it will take at least 9 seconds to stack on a boss, compared to the 1.5 second animation time of Seismic.
Four slots is a lot, given that Freezing Touch is the second most powerful attack in the set. Sacrificing that much damage is not a trivial decision.
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That's precisely the point. If Stone must, why can't Ice Melee?
As for Fault, I'd really like to know exactly how much of a threat a [EDIT]group of[/edit] minion[edit]s[/edit] is to a Tank. If it's "not that much", then that's undoubtedly factored into the Developer mindset.
As for Ice Patch, I think, if you wish to see a significant amount of more damage, this power is going to need a rebalancing. It is a great mitigation ability, and I think its main use is the fact that it can prevent so many attacks from multiple high-threat critters, like Bosses. Whether Stone is too powerful or Ice is too weak in their respective mitigation methods is a matter of speculation, given the fact that each method is both similar and different.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
A_C: here's my point:
Seismic Smash does much more damage than FT and can hold a boss in one hit. In fact, it does so much more damage than FT, that it can do this: be slotted for control and STILL do more damage than FT
SS: 158.38 smashing damage
FT: 6 * 12.46 damage (74.76 total)
FT 3-slotted for damage: 146.53 damage
So, even if you slot SS for control, you get much better control than FT, and still do more damage with each application. Doesn't that strike you as odd?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I shall, again, state that Ice Patch is skewing their analysis of the matter, as it is a permanent control as opposed to the four second knockdown that Fault provides.
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The "control" from Ice melee comes fro Frozen Aura. Ice Patch is a nice bonus power that "may" remove 5 enemies from a fight temporarily. Just because it has 5 enemies on it does not mean that they will stay or that they cannot attack. Enemies do stand up and fire an attack and enemies do run off of the ice patch.
Tremor does knock down ten enemies and Fault does knock down ten enemies. Fault may stun then as well, and with slotting and recharge bonuses, it may stack.
What I would like for the set is more damage, because GIS does not compare, not even remotely close, to other tanker sets high damage attack. Frozen Touch I wish was burst damage. I wish it was a mag 4 like other sets get as well, or at least a percent to become a mag 4, similar to Total Focus. (not the damage, just the %for mag 4)
And Frozen Aura should be made some sort of AoE damage power. I would be happy with making it like Combustion. Or a Cold damage toggle. (Blazing Aura anyone?)
Adjust GIS and(/or) FT. Add AoE damage to FA.
Pyre mastery does more damage than Ice Melee.
I would like to not rely on Ice Patch/Burn for my damage.
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
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A_C: here's my point:
Seismic Smash does much more damage than FT and can hold a boss in one hit. In fact, it does so much more damage than FT, that it can do this: be slotted for control and STILL do more damage than FT
SS: 158.38 smashing damage
FT: 6 * 12.46 damage (74.76 total)
FT 3-slotted for damage: 146.53 damage
So, even if you slot SS for control, you get much better control than FT, and still do more damage with each application. Doesn't that strike you as odd?
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Yes. Compared in a vacuum, of course. I suppose Seismic Smash is the "Total Focus", compared to Freezing Touch's "Shocking Grasp". It does both less damage, less burst mez, and is of a DoT nature. The difference is between the sets themselves, and as a developer, you must balance each set to each other. I, again, think they made an error somewhere along the lines, and the fixes to Ice Melee are numerous and wholly dependent on the desires of each poster making the suggestion; unfortunately, what will actually be implemented is entirely dependent on how much time Castle has. He's already said that, if he has time, he could try to look at Ice Melee, which tells me it's on his "list" of things he'd like to get around to. I'm no more happy about this than you are, because Stalkers are in the same boat. Or so we think, because Castle's never actually bothered commenting in our neck of the woods.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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I think the point is the fact that Ice Patch can do that at all times. While granted, it's only five targets, that's five targets that can essentially be permanently removed from the fight.
As for Stone, while yes, Seismic Smash can remove a boss from the fight temporarily, Freezing Touch can remove one permanently, if given a chance to stack (if my mental math is correct). It's also able to be selected some ten levels before Seismic Smash, which all factors into the Developer Datamining, as shown by Castle's words above.
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Ummm...as was pointed out, SS can take a boss out of the fight permanently (while doing more damage than FT) if slotted for it. FT cannot, as it is lower mag, and the duration is not long enough to keep a permanent hold on most bosses.
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Then it would need to be slotted for accuracies, -recharge and hold duration, which would destroy its ability to solo efficiently. If people are truly slotting Seismic Smash as a control power, then more power to them. Ice Melee is still going to be controlling more and better, judging from what I've seen.
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Well I slot my seismic smash Acc/mez HO, 2 dam/mez HOs and 3 makos, dam/rech, acc/end/rech, acc/dam/end/rech and I'm gimped on this power how ? According to mids, this gives me 18.6s hold duration with a recharge of 9.76s when hasten is not up (I have some +rech set bonuses), and 7.27s when it is. If I didn't bother with the extra makos set bonus and but a pure recharge in instead of the dam/rech, would be even better and double stackable all the time without hasten.
Also remember fault will combine with boxing (10% chance) and stone fist (10% chance) to stun bosses even when they're not held, and in fact fault will self stack most of the time anyway. Mine lasts 16.9s and with hasten up recharges in 7.8 (10.7 without) so you can AoE stun bosses as well as hold them (and perma stun even con bosses).
Lady Lahar 50 ice/stone Virtue and 13 other 50s
It's true. This game is NOT rocket surgery. - BillZBubba
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I shall, again, state that Ice Patch is skewing their analysis of the matter, as it is a permanent control as opposed to the four second knockdown that Fault provides.
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The "control" from Ice melee comes fro Frozen Aura. Ice Patch is a nice bonus power that "may" remove 5 enemies from a fight temporarily. Just because it has 5 enemies on it does not mean that they will stay or that they cannot attack. Enemies do stand up and fire an attack and enemies do run off of the ice patch.
Tremor does knock down ten enemies and Fault does knock down ten enemies. Fault may stun then as well, and with slotting and recharge bonuses, it may stack.
What I would like for the set is more damage, because GIS does not compare, not even remotely close, to other tanker sets high damage attack. Frozen Touch I wish was burst damage. I wish it was a mag 4 like other sets get as well, or at least a percent to become a mag 4, similar to Total Focus. (not the damage, just the %for mag 4)
And Frozen Aura should be made some sort of AoE damage power. I would be happy with making it like Combustion. Or a Cold damage toggle. (Blazing Aura anyone?)
Adjust GIS and(/or) FT. Add AoE damage to FA.
Pyre mastery does more damage than Ice Melee.
I would like to not rely on Ice Patch/Burn for my damage.
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Total Focus, in all its incarnations except Dominators', is mag four. I agree that Freezing Touch would be made an amazingly good power if it were mag 4, as suddenly you could quite easily perma-hold two bosses.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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I think the point is the fact that Ice Patch can do that at all times. While granted, it's only five targets, that's five targets that can essentially be permanently removed from the fight.
As for Stone, while yes, Seismic Smash can remove a boss from the fight temporarily, Freezing Touch can remove one permanently, if given a chance to stack (if my mental math is correct). It's also able to be selected some ten levels before Seismic Smash, which all factors into the Developer Datamining, as shown by Castle's words above.
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Ummm...as was pointed out, SS can take a boss out of the fight permanently (while doing more damage than FT) if slotted for it. FT cannot, as it is lower mag, and the duration is not long enough to keep a permanent hold on most bosses.
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Then it would need to be slotted for accuracies, -recharge and hold duration, which would destroy its ability to solo efficiently. If people are truly slotting Seismic Smash as a control power, then more power to them. Ice Melee is still going to be controlling more and better, judging from what I've seen.
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Well I slot my seismic smash Acc/mez HO, 2 dam/mez HOs and 3 makos, dam/rech, acc/end/rech, acc/dam/end/rech and I'm gimped on this power how ? According to mids, this gives me 18.6s hold duration with a recharge of 9.76s when hasten is not up (I have some +rech set bonuses), and 7.27s when it is. If I didn't bother with the extra makos set bonus and but a pure recharge in instead of the dam/rech, would be even better and double stackable all the time without hasten.
Also remember fault will combine with boxing (10% chance) and stone fist (10% chance) to stun bosses even when they're not held, and in fact fault will self stack most of the time anyway. Mine lasts 16.9s and with hasten up recharges in 7.8 (10.7 without) so you can AoE stun bosses as well as hold them (and perma stun even con bosses).
Lady Lahar 50 ice/stone Virtue and 13 other 50s
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I did not say slotting damage is gimping you. You must also realize that that's well over thirty million influence in enhancements, or so I recall. That's a big investment, and it obviously paid off.
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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A_C: here's my point:
Seismic Smash does much more damage than FT and can hold a boss in one hit. In fact, it does so much more damage than FT, that it can do this: be slotted for control and STILL do more damage than FT
SS: 158.38 smashing damage
FT: 6 * 12.46 damage (74.76 total)
FT 3-slotted for damage: 146.53 damage
So, even if you slot SS for control, you get much better control than FT, and still do more damage with each application. Doesn't that strike you as odd?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. Compared in a vacuum, of course. I suppose Seismic Smash is the "Total Focus", compared to Freezing Touch's "Shocking Grasp". It does both less damage, less burst mez, and is of a DoT nature. The difference is between the sets themselves, and as a developer, you must balance each set to each other. I, again, think they made an error somewhere along the lines, and the fixes to Ice Melee are numerous and wholly dependent on the desires of each poster making the suggestion; unfortunately, what will actually be implemented is entirely dependent on how much time Castle has. He's already said that, if he has time, he could try to look at Ice Melee, which tells me it's on his "list" of things he'd like to get around to. I'm no more happy about this than you are, because Stalkers are in the same boat. Or so we think, because Castle's never actually bothered commenting in our neck of the woods.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that it's a set-to-set comparison, not a power-to-power comparison. But in every example I've seen, both in-game with other tankers, or mathematical tests on the forums, Stone Melee is pretty good on control, and beats us in damage, on a set-to-set comparison.
I mean, if we were to compare the set power by power (so tier 1 vs tier 1, tier 2 vs tier 2), I'd bet all the money in my bank account that SM would come out ahead on a vast majority of them.
I mean, if you compare Ice's Tier 8 power to Stone's tier 3 power, Stone comes out ahead.
I know that looking at it power-to-power is not the way to go, since we need to balance based on whole sets, but something about this just seems wrong when you compare my (although obviously subjective) experiences in the game to what Castle is telling us.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Total Focus, in all its incarnations except Dominators', is mag four. I agree that Freezing Touch would be made an amazingly good power if it were mag 4, as suddenly you could quite easily perma-hold two bosses.
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you mean just like Seismic Smash can now?
My Seismic Smash has a 6.21 recharge and an 18.21 duration... sounds like 3 Bosses to me...
my FT is 8.73 with a hold of 23.2. Longer Duration, but slower recharge, and you have to hit that second time to get a boss.
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
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I am really sorry I couldn't get you all the changes the set needs.
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First, let me echo what your fellow players have said -- you have nothing to be sorry about.
Ice Melee does well at all power levels -- it's never the worst, and never the best. Datamining shows that the points it does worst is in the 38-45 range, which is where the Tier 9 power normally comes into it's own. Since Ice Melee players typically ignore their Tier 9, this can be seen as the cause.
So, why does Frozen Aura get ignored? There've been many threads on this here in the forums, the gist of which is that a PBAoE SLEEP doesn't add anything to a Tankers Repertoire. Since any Aura power interrupts Sleep effects, and Tankers essentially *must* run auras to fulfill their roll, it is counterproductive.
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_Castle_ Thanks for the response, I want to outline a point on Frozen Aura. Since it is a sleep it makes it a real issue to use effectively in its current incarnation. I am sure you have read Ice Melee 1, 2 and 3 and have seen the boatload of suggestions that have been made. The only Tanker that can benefit from FA in its current form is an Inv/Ice Melee tank which is the rarest Tanker combination.
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So, what's the solution? Currently, there isn't one. Tankers, as a whole, do better than average, and this includes Ice Melee. My focus is on those AT's who, as a group, underperform. I may be able to take some time to make some changes during the I11 beta, or afterwards, but it entirely depends on how things are going. No promises!
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I would love to see a positive change to Frozen Aura and I know 99 % of Ice Melee Tanks would appreciate it. Heck I am happy that its being considered. Thanks for your response on this matter.
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Goes against everything I've seen in the game. I've seen /Stone tankers out control me, and most every other tanker secondary can out-damage me. Based on my experiences in the game, I don't get how the above is true at all. The mathematical experiments we've run in versions of Tundara's thread don't back it up either.
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The problem with most mathematical experiments I see here in the forums is that they are measuring the extremities of performance. The datamining I do shows how players are actually performing in the "reality" of the game. The two are related, but there is often a vast gulf between what a set is capable of and what it is typically asked to do in gameplay.
Edit: Also, the quote you referred to is across all AT/Powerset combinations. */Ice outperforms many other AT/Powerset combinations.
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I want to counter point this thought with one of my own. Fault can effect 10 enemies, knock them down and stun minions. it has a 50 % chance to Stun Lt's. Now it has a tohit check and it isnt constant. Fault needs to be re applied more often the Ice patch. However Ice Patch is constant at least for 30 seconds and will knock anyone down. However Ice Patch can only effect 5 Enemies. I would favor Fault just because of the fact its mobility control and has extra secondary effects.
Seismic Smash has a hold built into it which is a Magnitude 4 hold. That will hold a boss, lets not forget the supreme damage it drops also. Comparing this to Freezing Touch is not much of a comparison. Freezing Touch is a mag 3 hold and recharges in 16 seconds, just 4 seconds sooner then Seismic Smash. Plus FT is a DOT which is always a rough deal when compared to Seismic Smash which hits in one shot.
Comparing Tremor to Frozen Aura is a raw deal. On paper Frozen Aura is an outstanding power, unfortunately as we all learn, what we see on paper and what our experiences tell us are 2 different things. FA will out control darn near anything except Glacier and other PBAoE holds that Controllers have however as long as nothing wakes them up. The real scenario is FA is near useless and Tremor at least gives damage and some control with the knock back.
At the end of the day were does this leave us, Stone can have better control and in the right hands can be outright an evil control set while Ice Melee requires the patience of a saint and the right hands to make the set beneficial and enjoyable. Ice Melee has good control however can be outshined in its own AT. Adjusting Frozen Aura can go a long way to resolving many of these issues.
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That's precisely the point. If Stone must, why can't Ice Melee?
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That presupposes that stone must. How many people actually slot Seismic for hold at all, barring HOs? Permahold SS is a neat party trick, but so what? Stone can kill or maim a boss in the default hold duration, plus follow up with Fault or Tremor or Stone Mallet or Heavy Mallet for KD if additional control is needed.
[ QUOTE ]
As for Fault, I'd really like to know exactly how much of a threat a [EDIT]group of[/edit] minion[edit]s[/edit] is to a Tank. If it's "not that much", then that's undoubtedly factored into the Developer mindset.
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In a sufficiently large spawn, minions can account for a very large portion of the incoming damage. And if we're not talking large spawns: who cares? When has a small number of minions ever been a threat to a tank, unless it's Vanguard or something with substantial end drain?
The question is how much relative value do those powers bring in a team environment? Which one stops more AoE? Which one is better at keeping those 45-second stun grenades off the blasters? Do you know how much knockdown Fault provides? Tremor? The ST attacks? Stone is not hurting for KD, either. And do you know what happens to Ice Patch if you're teamed with so much as one person who gets giddy over knockback powers?
Interesting point: the larger the spawn gets, the more powerful /stone's control gets relative to /ice. If you really want the details, I again refer you to earlier threads as we've been over it multiple times in great detail.
Anyway, that's all I have to say. I have nothing new to add, and I, and others, have answered the exact same objections, multiple times, in prior threads, and I no longer care about trying to convince other players. At this point people are convinced or they aren't, and frankly Castle's the only one that really matters.
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I shall, again, state that Ice Patch is skewing their analysis of the matter, as it is a permanent control as opposed to the four second knockdown that Fault provides.
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The "control" from Ice melee comes fro Frozen Aura. Ice Patch is a nice bonus power that "may" remove 5 enemies from a fight temporarily. Just because it has 5 enemies on it does not mean that they will stay or that they cannot attack. Enemies do stand up and fire an attack and enemies do run off of the ice patch.
Tremor does knock down ten enemies and Fault does knock down ten enemies. Fault may stun then as well, and with slotting and recharge bonuses, it may stack.
What I would like for the set is more damage, because GIS does not compare, not even remotely close, to other tanker sets high damage attack. Frozen Touch I wish was burst damage. I wish it was a mag 4 like other sets get as well, or at least a percent to become a mag 4, similar to Total Focus. (not the damage, just the %for mag 4)
And Frozen Aura should be made some sort of AoE damage power. I would be happy with making it like Combustion. Or a Cold damage toggle. (Blazing Aura anyone?)
Adjust GIS and(/or) FT. Add AoE damage to FA.
Pyre mastery does more damage than Ice Melee.
I would like to not rely on Ice Patch/Burn for my damage.
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Total Focus, in all its incarnations except Dominators', is mag four. I agree that Freezing Touch would be made an amazingly good power if it were mag 4, as suddenly you could quite easily perma-hold two bosses.
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But to do this, you'd be giving up slotting one of your most damaging attacks. If you're going to say that slotting SS for control is a waste because it lowers your damage to do so, you have to do the same for FT. The control is a secondary aspect of the power, especially for Ice Melee, since it needs all the damage it can get.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Goes against everything I've seen in the game. I've seen /Stone tankers out control me, and most every other tanker secondary can out-damage me. Based on my experiences in the game, I don't get how the above is true at all. The mathematical experiments we've run in versions of Tundara's thread don't back it up either.
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The problem with most mathematical experiments I see here in the forums is that they are measuring the extremities of performance. The datamining I do shows how players are actually performing in the "reality" of the game. The two are related, but there is often a vast gulf between what a set is capable of and what it is typically asked to do in gameplay.
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This is why the OP and many others come away from these marathon threads with little to cheer about. Theoretical analysis and static modeling is a weak tool since we do not actually know how much of the game mechanics truly operate. Some users work miracles of analysis to suggest foo and then sometime later the response comes that datamining says bar.
Without access to the raw performance data statistically minded users are groping in the dark. Since the devs do not release that data we can't help them in a "many hands make light work" sort of way. We can't question or confirm their answers that one AT or powerset or power is better or worse by some measure or other that can be confirmed and reviewed.
I do not believe Cryptic attempts to deceive or mislead us when they respond in these forums, but we don't know what questions they ask when they datamine and therefore can't point out biases or other issues that might make a material difference in the context of a larger discussion.
I've made this point since beta: good datamining/statistical analysis is very hard to do; the hardest part is coming up with the right questions to ask based on the data thats collected. Next hardest is showing that the facts mined from the data actually answer the question being asked. Bias, wishful thinking, etc. can creep in at any point - it's why peer-review is the gold-standard for serious scientific/statistical publishing in the real world.
We are not peers - we are customers. Cryptic is fully within its rights to not let us peer behind the curtain. Since that isn't likely to change, I predict that we'll see new forum discussions in the future following the same pattern as this one.
Ohmi