should team buffs have diminishing returns?
By
ageone,
Posted on: 2007-04-10 09:49 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Nope, think it works just fine now. Can use those extra strength on the large team to survive the bigger spawns, more bosses, etc.
Cheers!
Nope. I think it works fine as it is. There are caps on the effects and the current method allows people to piece together the best team for themselves rather than having to work out a whole array of numbers every time they put a team together.
Reducing returns would cause misery...
This would be an extreme solution so something that isn't really a problem.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
I don't know. I'm kind of annoyed by the Buffing Is King theme of Co*. I'm annoyed that Stone Brute + 7 Corruptors is head and shoulders above every other villain team ever. I don't like hearing about 8-Defender teams watching AVs melt in seconds before their eyes. Then again, I don't actually participate in these ultra teams, so maybe all I've heard is a bunch of hogwash.
Diminishing returns makes sense to me, something like 100% of the largest buff of a given attribute, 50% of the 2nd largest, 25% of the 3rd largest, etc.
I don't see it as a big deal though.
We have a Forums Games section and a Suggestions and Ideas section. FYI.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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team buffs have a mechanics problem. Teams vary in size from 1-8 so a buff that applies to everyone on the team is multiplied in effectiveness from 1x to 8x. Either a buff is useless for small teams or godmode for large teams - or both.
What if team buffs had diminishing returns? Say 150% effectiveness for teams of 1-2, 125% for 3-4, 100% for 5-6, and 75% for 7-8 (numbers given are just an idea, the real numbers would need to be better balanced and more complex like (Y-1) X (12.5% + R/2.3).
That way buffs would be more useful on smaller teams and less powerful on bigger teams than they are now. A team buff should still give a bigger total boost on a large team but not 4x on an 8 person team what it does on a 2 person team.
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The Devs have always encouraged team play. Your idea would nerf 2 ATs that are very team oriented. I have many Defenders that cannot solo most missions on heroic. On teams I do well, on teams with other defenders/controllers I do very well (assuming they know what they are doing....and I know what I am doing). Quotes from my really outdated CoH manual:
Controller - "A Controller who wishes to adventure solo must do so with extreme caution. The archetype really contributes as part of a group"
Defender - "The Defender is a suitable archetype for grouping, though soloing is possible"
Why do you feel that team buffs have a mechanics problem? Are your non-buffing/debuffing toons having a problem finding teams?
I would only agree to an idea like this one if the diminishing returns applied to *all* ATs. Scrappers and blasters do less damage...the taunt effectivness of tanks goes down.
Making allies stronger and enemies weaker is what controllers and defenders do. Defenders and controllers can't solo missions as well as scrappers and blasters (at least in the early game). Why is it so bad that a group of 8 scrappers and blasters can't run thru missions as well as a group of 8 defenders and controllers?
I love it when this topic comes up...
Back before Issue 5, buffs were secondary, practically unnecessary. Tanks were king. The Devs make some changes that actually make buffs useful, and people cry foul, especially those who played Tanks.
This topic comes up at least once every few months, always by someone who played an AT that didn't need support back before the GDN and ED. And considering the OP started a thread in the AT General section about Tanks' usefulness in the post-GDN/ED world... color me not surprised.
"A good Defender is the battle hardened Corpsman who will kill a Nazi with a tongue depressor while putting a splint on your leg, then hand you a fresh clip of ammo." ~Jock_Thompson
Repeat Offenders, TNT Profile, My little hero
This is a solution in search of a problem.
Its going to be searching a long time.
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I don't see this as a problem. I'm shocked that folks would bring this up.
You want to make teaming a bad thing? 
Sound to me like somebody's tank or scrapper got on a mostly defender team and felt useless. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
Link
That thread is pretty much the reason for this one.
"A good Defender is the battle hardened Corpsman who will kill a Nazi with a tongue depressor while putting a splint on your leg, then hand you a fresh clip of ammo." ~Jock_Thompson
Repeat Offenders, TNT Profile, My little hero
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Link
That thread is pretty much the reason for this one.
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Aha! I see the reasoning now hehe
Cheers!
You know what this game needs? MORE MATH!
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
Team buffs do not need diminishing returns. Buffs should be multiplicative not additive.
Repeat Offenders the SG and mindset rail against this idea for a very good reason, it destroys the basis for their playstyle. From that perspective I understand where they are coming from. That same argument didn't stop the GDN/ED, however.
The devs look ready to start looking at buffs/debuffs. The -regen change was very good. But I don't expect any major changes for the buffers/debuffers. The time for that has past.
So we'll see tweaks here and there so that the biggest Offenders (pun not intended) aren't so powerful. But the only way I see a major change in the offing is if you started to see a major shift towards Defenders.
You did see such a shift towards Controllers, but the devs decided to hit the primaries/epics instead of catching the defenders in a buff/debuff nerf.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I don't know. I'm kind of annoyed by the Buffing Is King theme of Co*. I'm annoyed that Stone Brute + 7 Corruptors is head and shoulders above every other villain team ever. I don't like hearing about 8- Defender teams watching AVs melt in seconds before their eyes. Then again, I don't actually participate in these ultra teams, so maybe all I've heard is a bunch of hogwash.
Diminishing returns makes sense to me, something like 100% of the largest buff of a given attribute, 50% of the 2nd largest, 25% of the 3rd largest, etc.
I don't see it as a big deal though.
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Not a "big" deal, true, but a problem none-the-less. I've even felt that why about those kinds of teams. Their broken.
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Link
That thread is pretty much the reason for this one.
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Actually it is not but nice attempt at inductive reasoning. Trying to find a master plan in my posts is giving me far too much credit.
I've been playing a controller, and teaming with controllers and defenders. On a two person team a defender is not very helpful, on an 8 person team a defender is amazing. The game seems to be designed around solo or 8 person teams with nothing in the middle.
It is bad design to have 2 defenders teaming be weak and 8 defenders teaming be godmode. The 2 defenders team should be strong and the 8 defenders team should be strong - maybe a bit stronger.
It is a question of balance. There should not be one best way to play the game. And currently there is - stacked buffers (and debuffers but that's another topic) are godmode a duo of buffers is weak. That's bad design and invites abuse.
Bull crap it isn't the reason for this thread. You pretty much had it pointed out that people have finally realized the usefulness of buffs and debuffs and that Tanks aren't as necessary as before. Then you post this? It may not have been conscious, but it's definitely a factor. And why am I not surprised to find the king of the argument for making buffs/debuffs weaker has already found his way here...
If you honestly think 8 defenders is godmode...
Then you've never played on a team with 8 defenders.
Just like tri-form Warshades... all-defender teams are at one of two extremes. They either do exceptionally well, or crash and burn faster than you can blink.
"A good Defender is the battle hardened Corpsman who will kill a Nazi with a tongue depressor while putting a splint on your leg, then hand you a fresh clip of ammo." ~Jock_Thompson
Repeat Offenders, TNT Profile, My little hero
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Sound to me like somebody's tank or scrapper got on a mostly defender team and felt useless. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
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Interestingly, this happened in my SG the other night. We are primarily a Psychic SG (Defenders and Controllers with Psy powers) who also takes on "Thralls" from time to time.
The team was a trio of Defenders, a Controller and a Scrapper. The Scrapper was feeling a little superfluous for good reason but he did serve a purpose in helping us take down groups and bosses faster.
It's a perception thing and some players have trouble integrating the concept of a team doing well over their perceived individual performance.
That being said, Teaming is what makes you feel really super in this game. Even a team of 8 Blasters are going to blow through missions with ease.
Nerfing teaming is no solution to any problem in this game.
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all-defender teams are at one of two extremes. They either do exceptionally well, or crash and burn faster than you can blink.
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That is for sure. Funny how Repeat Offenders always gets hauled out as an example by people that don't play with us. Believe me, there are plenty of wipes, and no, not all of them are my fault. 
Cheers!
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Bull crap it isn't the reason for this thread. You pretty much had it pointed out that people have finally realized the usefulness of buffs and debuffs and that Tanks aren't as necessary as before. Then you post this? It may not have been conscious, but it's definitely a factor. And why am I not surprised to find the king of the argument for making buffs/debuffs weaker has already found his way here...
If you honestly think 8 defenders is godmode...
Then you've never played on a team with 8 defenders.
Just like tri-form Warshades... all-defender teams are at one of two extremes. They either do exceptionally well, or crash and burn faster than you can blink.
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Since I haven't played a tanker in over a year, the decline of tankers was a note of interest to me but not the point of this thread. I was playing controllers and am now playing blasters. But I don't expect reality to impact your opinion.
I have not played on a team with 8 defenders. I have played on teams of all controllers and defenders. The result is godmode. I do believe that players can screw up any build or team - I assume from your post that you fall into that category.
I recognize that people who rely upon broken mechanics as a crutch for their poor skills are often terrified that their uber abilities will be taken away and that you are acting according - it may not have been concious, but it's definitely a factor.
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This would be an extreme solution so something that isn't really a problem.
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See: Travel power suppression
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I recognize that people who rely upon broken mechanics as a crutch for their poor skills are often terrified that their uber abilities will be taken away and that you are acting according - it may not have been concious, but it's definitely a factor.
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Way to try to bait someone into a flame war troll!
Wow... Just wow. An idiot and a jerk. Everything you just said... Hmm... 100% incorrect.
/ignore
"A good Defender is the battle hardened Corpsman who will kill a Nazi with a tongue depressor while putting a splint on your leg, then hand you a fresh clip of ammo." ~Jock_Thompson
Repeat Offenders, TNT Profile, My little hero
team buffs have a mechanics problem. Teams vary in size from 1-8 so a buff that applies to everyone on the team is multiplied in effectiveness from 1x to 8x. Either a buff is useless for small teams or godmode for large teams - or both.
What if team buffs had diminishing returns? Say 150% effectiveness for teams of 1-2, 125% for 3-4, 100% for 5-6, and 75% for 7-8 (numbers given are just an idea, the real numbers would need to be better balanced and more complex like (Y-1) X (12.5% + R/2.3).
That way buffs would be more useful on smaller teams and less powerful on bigger teams than they are now. A team buff should still give a bigger total boost on a large team but not 4x on an 8 person team what it does on a 2 person team.