Article Discussion: Redesigning Hamidon
By
AmazingMOO,
Posted on: 2007-03-22 13:31 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I'm a bit concerned about the 50 player limit.
I'm mostly a solo player and I enjoyed the Hamidon encounter as it was because I could join in and contribute...as either my Blaster or Empath. I didn't go AFK either, I was at the keyboard for the whole thing. If I got an invite, I'd join a team, but I didn't have to be on a team to contribute.
With the new player limit, I can see going to whatever zone has an opening and seeing broadcasts or getting tells asking me to leave because I'm not part of XYZ SG that is trying to do an SG only raid. I guess in this case I'd be labeled a leecher? Or a griefer?
I'll try it a few times to see what it's like before giving up on it though.
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I only have one comment.
I participate in a raid.
There are 50 players in said raid.
Everyone is having alot of fun.
Then at some point I get Mapserved. (cuz you know, mapserver happens)
...
I start Verifying files...
...
Someone else heading to the Hive suddenly enters the hive.
...
Still verifying files...
...
...
I log in.
...
...
I can't re-enter the Hive to my raid.
...
...
Now I'm pissed.
"All that crap is grey to me, no XP." - Positron 5/15/05 8:36am . . . The world stopped and silence ensued except for the sound of a crying infant off in the distance.
"Everyone needs to chill the hell out." - BackAlleyBrawler 11/13/08 3:26pm . . . Geeks around the world stopped and blinked.
That was definitely an interesting article. It's always interesting to get inside the minds of the devs, so to speak.
That having been said, I have to echo some of the concerns of the other posters. Unless the instance locks to only the set of people in the zone when Hamidon is spawned -- such that only those people can get into and out of that instance -- griefers and leechers can still take advantage of the instancing system if someone gets disconnected or otherwise has to leave the zone.
Also, from reading the article, I'm as always skeptical that some ATs will serve any purpose in the new encounter. For example, it definitely seems to be the objective of the developers to eliminate the need for Control ATs, mostly by hamstringing their control with immune mobs or utterly useless duration/recharge values, or by reducing their damage. Unless there's some magical weakness the new Hamidon mobs have to Control effects, we'll run into the same situation we have now in AV/GM fights: Controllers act as cut-rate Defenders, and Dominators act as cut-rate Blasters. That is, quite frankly, not fun at all and a disservice to these players. The issue of a missing Stalker role is also salient, though at least Stalkers can deal significant damage to targets during a prolonged fight.
After reading the article, I found myself more interested in the development decisions and process than in the encounter itself, which seems likely to require even more specialized techniques and strategies (or a good bit of luck) than the old one. That'd be good, of course, if (as in other MMOs) those specialized strategies could be executed in a variety of different ways that utilize everyone and that lead to a quick and fun resolution of the encounter. However, I imagine we'll see groups spending 30-45 minutes beating on a mob, while the low damage Control ATs, who can't really do anything besides put a power on auto, go take a nap -- or don't get invited at all.
I like the fact that the Hami is being updated, but I have a few concerns.
- My main issue with Hami raids hasn't been resolved - griefers. Indeed with less people per raid, they will now be WORSE. Someone spawning a Kronos is irritating for 80-100 people, what would it be like for 50?
- Firstly, I think the 50 cap is too low. If there is any sort of organised raid time, we could well end up where 50 will raid, 20 will sit in the other instance knowing they have missed their chance. Plus, what happens if they disconnect?
- The 24 hour rule means that someone could play at the same time every day, and not get his enhancement because a raid was completed faster than the previous time. Could it not be made to a literal day (Being defined by a set timezone) or 20 hours?
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Plus, what happens if they disconnect?
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I was just thinking that.
You disconnect and someone else takes your spot in the zone.
That would suck.
Wait... Posi goofed? 
I liked the article, course, I didn't see the original incarnation of it since I was at work before the article was reworked, but like others have said, it is a trove of useful information.
So BAB, you going to pop in more often?
CatMan - some form on every server
Always here, there, and there again.
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We love our dev interaction.
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Yes, we do. Oh, step over that pile of bones there.
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LMAO *trips over pile of bones* 
One comment on the article: now that we know the strategy that geko had in mind, its worth noting that there were actual players discussing the possibility of just that strategy way back in 2004. In fact, the article describes attacking from one side, letting the mitos spawn, and then switching to attacking from the other side. The player version of this strategy recognized that there are *two* respawns, and the attacks would have to come from points on a triangle: first evading respawn #1, and then evading respawn #2. The problem was one of coordination: it took so many players to successfully attack Hamidon (at least in a relatively open raid without carefully crafted characters) that coordinating the "jumps" was a non-trivial problem.
But the actual *strategy* was, in a sense, discovered by the players, just not to my knowledge executed.
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One comment on the article: now that we know the strategy that geko had in mind, its worth noting that there were actual players discussing the possibility of just that strategy way back in 2004. In fact, the article describes attacking from one side, letting the mitos spawn, and then switching to attacking from the other side. The player version of this strategy recognized that there are *two* respawns, and the attacks would have to come from points on a triangle: first evading respawn #1, and then evading respawn #2. The problem was one of coordination: it took so many players to successfully attack Hamidon (at least in a relatively open raid without carefully crafted characters) that coordinating the "jumps" was a non-trivial problem.
But the actual *strategy* was, in a sense, discovered by the players, just not to my knowledge executed.
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Yep, and the main reason it was never successfully done in an open raid was that it was not only more vulnerable to griefing than the hold strategy, but it was extremely vulnerable to ignorance. Half a dozen people who didn't know what was going on could conceivably spread the Mito spawn to areas where it would be fatal.
On top of this, every *fix* to Hami proceeded to make this stategy more and more unlikely. Today, it's outright impossible, as Hami and the Mitos simply have too much range for it to work.
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Great....they just ruined the Hamidon.
50 player cap? Don't like it. I love big groups and the lag does not bother me at all. I really don't know what you guys are thinking but I'm starting to have doubts. Ever take into consideration that other people do like the giant raid groups and all the stuff that goes on during the raid? Wonder how many people they actually interviewed to get that pole count on changing Hamidon.....
Dev points in my book: -34
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How can you actually LIKE the train wreck that is the current Hami raid? It's a huge lagfest, especially when the zone caps out. Auto follow a mito targeter if you're a damage dealer, and punch the keys on your KB and watch your powers activate 5 mins later since everything's running at a very slow slideshow. Then go sit on a rock and wait as all the controllers pile around Hami and put themselves on Auto. Oh wait, a bunch of griefers might show up and cause a yellow dawn, wasting your time spent on the raid. And don't forget, if you're a tanker you only have two things to do at a raid: Jack and Squat
I'm sorry, but the current Hamidon setup is just a huge flop. It's not a raid when 90% of the players in the Hive are just standing around waiting for Hami to drop, while the other 10% are on Auto while they're off making a sandwich or something. Games like WoW and such got the idea right(execution by the players is another thing). CoH did not, but with I9 it's finally moving in the right direction.
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Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.
Before I'd gone through the story arc that gave Hamidon's backstory, I had assumed from the screenshots that Hamidon was some sort of Elder God of School Cafeteria Jello. The Mitocondrias were some sort of floaty faux fruit chunks.
Even Cthulu cowers before the alien J'ello from the distant planet Kr'aft and their ambassador of doom Kros-bi.
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Before I'd gone through the story arc that gave Hamidon's backstory, I had assumed from the screenshots that Hamidon was some sort of Elder God of School Cafeteria Jello. The Mitocondrias were some sort of floaty faux fruit chunks.
Even Cthulu cowers before the alien J'ello from the distant planet Kr'aft and their ambassador of doom Kros-bi.
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OMG... one of the first times I've laughed, for real. Usually I snicker or chuckle or something. My kid just asked me "What's so funny mom?"
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Back Alley Brawler?!?!?
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That's what I said! 
Sign It : http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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One comment on the article: now that we know the strategy that geko had in mind, its worth noting that there were actual players discussing the possibility of just that strategy way back in 2004. In fact, the article describes attacking from one side, letting the mitos spawn, and then switching to attacking from the other side. The player version of this strategy recognized that there are *two* respawns, and the attacks would have to come from points on a triangle: first evading respawn #1, and then evading respawn #2. The problem was one of coordination: it took so many players to successfully attack Hamidon (at least in a relatively open raid without carefully crafted characters) that coordinating the "jumps" was a non-trivial problem.
But the actual *strategy* was, in a sense, discovered by the players, just not to my knowledge executed.
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Yep, and the main reason it was never successfully done in an open raid was that it was not only more vulnerable to griefing than the hold strategy, but it was extremely vulnerable to ignorance. Half a dozen people who didn't know what was going on could conceivably spread the Mito spawn to areas where it would be fatal.
On top of this, every *fix* to Hami proceeded to make this stategy more and more unlikely. Today, it's outright impossible, as Hami and the Mitos simply have too much range for it to work.
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It actually predates the hold strategy by several months. Its main problem I think was coordination. I know it was *attempted* on at least a couple of occasions, but I wasn't a direct witness to any of the attempts (not my server).
Timing is critical: so critical, I'm not sure if geko actually stepped through it moment by moment himself. Once you get Hami below a certain health level, he spawns on you. You have to be able to relocate rapidly, and continue fighting, so he doesn't regain ground on you and go back above half-health and stay there too long (or you'll get another respawn).
The thought was that timing needed to be so perfect, that the full version of this strategy involved at least three strike teams. Three attack positions (A, B, and C) are selected. Strike team one attacks from position A, strike team two waits outside the goo near position B and specifically doesn't attack (this prevents them from drawing respawned mitos), strike team three waits near position C. When attack team one reduces hami to half health and causes him to respawn, they ditch and strike team two immediately moves to position B and continues the attack, out of range of the respawned mitos, giving hami no chance to recover. Strike team one then regroups, joins strike team two, and continues the fight. When that group causes a respawn on position B, strike team three moves in at position C and continues the fight, while strike teams one and two regroup and join them, to finish the fight.
Imagine coordinating that on your server.
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Who dat?
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Not sure how this is going to look until I see it in person. However, if we have to do all the "work" of clearing out the hive just to get Hami to spawn and then defeat him then there should be a guarantee of getting a reward instead of this 24 hour limit. What if we defeat Hami after 23 hours? No dice.
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The thought was that timing needed to be so perfect, that the full version of this strategy involved at least three strike teams. Three attack positions (A, B, and C) are selected. Strike team one attacks from position A, strike team two waits outside the goo near position B and specifically doesn't attack (this prevents them from drawing respawned mitos), strike team three waits near position C. When attack team one reduces hami to half health and causes him to respawn, they ditch and strike team two immediately moves to position B and continues the attack, out of range of the respawned mitos, giving hami no chance to recover. Strike team one then regroups, joins strike team two, and continues the fight. When that group causes a respawn on position B, strike team three moves in at position C and continues the fight, while strike teams one and two regroup and join them, to finish the fight.
Imagine coordinating that on your server.
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Not to mention that a good number of the people in the various teams might have to act without actually being able to see Hamidon itself. The insane graphics 'lag' that the Hami encounter can generate is a serious monkeywrench for even experienced teams.
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Looking forward to testing.
But like others, I think 75 should be the zone limit to match the sg limit.
Hopefully they're intending it to be doable with 30-35 really good and focused players. Because with the 50 limit and no instancing there still will be people that show up and just want their free stuff.
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Not sure how this is going to look until I see it in person. However, if we have to do all the "work" of clearing out the hive just to get Hami to spawn and then defeat him then there should be a guarantee of getting a reward instead of this 24 hour limit. What if we defeat Hami after 23 hours? No dice.
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It looks to be not as bad as you are painting. From the article, there appear to be separate coutners for HOs and Rare Recipes. If you got an HO 23 hours past, you should, in theory, still be able to get a Rare Recipe the 2nd time. Short of a red name confirming this, we cannot be 100% certain of this, but that's how I read the article.
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Um, did anyone actually READ the first section instead of skim it?
"The Hamidon was once a zealous scientist named Hamidon Pasilima. Using hideous dark magic and his own genetic genius, he transformed himself into the god-like monster that would spawn the Devouring Earth and threaten the entire world. Time and again, hundreds of heroes from Paragon City have banded together to defeat the Hamidon whenever it arises."
Where does it say he's a god? It says "god-LIKE". LIKE! Given how easily he can take down large numbers of super-powered entities, I'd say that's a fairly safe boast to make.
Second, where does it say he goes back to some dimension? I searched the article for such a thing and found nothing.
Really, the only thing that would point to ANY of this would be the title of the article, and I'm certain that was just a figure of speech. When you say someone's "burning the midnight oil", after all, you don't start complaining that they're actually using electricity in their lights, and that furthermore, what distinguishes midnight oil from regular oil? Nor should "Redesigning the Old God" be taken literally.
In short, I see nothing that contradicts what we already know about Hamidon.
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Um, did anyone actually READ the first section instead of skim it?
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Yes, everybody did. And then complained about it. And then it got corrected to what you just saw now.
Before getting sarcastic about peoples' responses, please read the thread.
I did, but somehow I missed that. I must have accidentally clicked from page 2 to 4 and missed B.A.B.'s explanation. I withdraw my statement then.
Folks this Hamidon raid is MORE open to griefing.
How?
I take my group of Uber players into Hamidon and we set up camp there. We defeat Hamidon and STAY there. 50 man cap and no instancing means grief city.
If I refuse to leave even tho' I get no reward I effectively grief others.
As far as no holding making it more fun - how's that Sewer Trial doing now? Yes, no one does it. I am not encouraged by the description of this encounter.
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The only awkward situation I foresee is an optimal strategy that requires a certain AT and no more of that AT being allowed into that Hive till a less optimal player leaves the zone... talk about awkward.
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I hate "optimal". I think people need to stop thinking "optimal" and start thinking "doable". "Optimal" is what gets the LRSF a bad name.
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no the poorly designed last mission is what got the LRSF a bad name