Article Discussion: Redesigning Hamidon
By
AmazingMOO,
Posted on: 2007-03-22 13:31 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
From the article:
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The Problems
<ul type="square">[*] Hamidon raids are a hotspot for griefing[*] Hamidon raids reward Leeching [/list]
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It's unclear to me how this new implementation solves these problems. The word "leech" (and variants) doesn't occur again in the article. Griefing is explained away by this vague bit:
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Weve also changed the way Hamidon spawns Mitochondria to protect himself as hes damaged. This change will prevent a raid from ever reaching the dreaded sea of orange names or yellow dawn, which also greatly reduces the impact of rogue players attempting to grief a Hamidon raid.
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So what's to stop a lone griefer from training giant monsters on the raiders? Or monkeying with Hami or mito aggro?
Instancing would have stopped both griefing and leeching much more decisively, but
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We recognize that Hamidon raids are a big social event as well as a PvE encounter. They're a unique opportunity for a lot of players to congregate in one place and fight one common enemy. Because of this, we chose to not go with an instanced trial.
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I'm not sure how 50 random people defeating Hami is any more social than 50 people who know one another doing it. If you instanced it, it would still be x people (where x is however many required to defeat Hami) being social. As it stands now, it will be x people and (50-x) griefers, leechers or gawkers.
I don't know, but it seems like instancing was eschewed for questionable benefit in a case where it would have solved two explicit problems.
Scrap
Actually the answer would be accessible GMs to kick tards and not players with extra game powers. I was already in two games where people were given extra game powers and those powers were abused and used to play favorites instead of being used to benefit the general public.
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I see more problems with the new creation of Hami then our gaming community currently deals with now.
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You know, if you guys are determined to MAKE UP things to complain about, you can do a lot better than this.
How about "Whenever I9 Hamidon kills you, the game automatically formats your hard drive"? I mean, that packs in WAYYYY more doom than "I haven't fought I9 Hamidon or talked to anyone who has, but it's impossible with 50 people".
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Begone, foul logic!
The power of teh intrawebs compels you!!
(I also need a young hacker, and an old one, to make this really work. Anyone got some to spare?)
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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You know, if you guys are determined to MAKE UP things to complain about, you can do a lot better than this.
How about "Whenever I9 Hamidon kills you, the game automatically formats your hard drive"? I mean, that packs in WAYYYY more doom than "I haven't fought I9 Hamidon or talked to anyone who has, but it's impossible with 50 people".
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No ones saying it's impossible. However people are coming to some easily drawn conclusions, and noticing that these changes could cause some serious problems. Now is the time to voice these concerns, while it is still in the development phase. It could be that the Dev's have solutions to these concerns already in place, but until it is open to test, or more details are given, we have some valid concerns.
Now some people are complaining that not all AT's have a real roll on a Hami raid. I for one have no problem with the fact that some AT's are more usefull than others on this encounter. Right now, all thats required is one team with 2 tanks and at least 4 healers (preferably empaths), one team with group fly and Illusion controllers, as many controllers as possible, and as many Rad defenders/controllers that you can find. Anyone else can help clear mitos and help on the final attack. True, a Stone/energy tank with teleport, and no ranged attacks is only going to be able to contribute to the final attack, and will be sitting on the rock most of the raid (unless he is on the aggro team).
Guess what? I have no problem with that. Already there is a great requirement for various AT's in this raid. Controllers for holding, and phantom drops, Defenders for healing and buffs, Controllers and dark defenders for pets to target off, and blasters for mito killing. Tanks are only needed for the Aggro team (but this is arguably the most important role). That leaves scrappers without a niche (kheldons can moonlight as other AT's). To me that is an accomplishment, that requires a large diversity of players. For my part, I keep my lvl 50 MC/emp troller parked in the hive, and log her on whenever I want to do a hami raid. Of all my toons, that one is the most generally usefull for the raid (though my tank has been on the aggro team a few times). I have no problem with my dark/dark defender not being as usefull in this scenario. He shines in other areas, like debuffing an AV's accuracy to the floor. If I wanted to bring him he could still contribute, but generally for raid purposes my controller is the better choice.
I am not sure if the changes they are making will help things that much. Now with 50 players tops, a new optimal configuration will emerge. We will learn that we should have x blasters for Mito A, y number of scrappers for Mito B, etc.. We won't be solving the problem, only changing the mix. You will still get people who are one tank to many, and now spots may be reserved for a particular AT or even power set. "Sorry, can you leave? We are saving the 50th slot for some one with phantom army and group fly, thanks".
I tend to agree with some of the others. New hami level encounters would be a better solution. Ones with different challenges and abilities. Perhaps an encounter with something that is mobile, ground based, and with lots of cover, making melee more important? Perhaps a Master Mind type of encounter, making controllers and blasters shine, by wiping out the swarms of underlings ( Lord Recluse could be a fine choice). I can go on and on. You will never please everyone, every encounter. So design enough encounters so that everyone can find something they like, and finally bring some more high level content to the game.
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Wait, Hamidon is a god?
I thought he was a science experiment gone somewhat wrong by a crazed scientist injecting himself with the Will of Earth?
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"god like", not a god.
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Interesting article. I noticed the 50 player cap too. I never raided Hamidon before, how many people could you get in there before?
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I think the Hive instances at about 200, give or take 20-30.
This Hamidon looks to be interesting to fight. It'll be good to shake up the good old "clear mitos, hold Hamidon, kill Hamidon" strategy. It's served us well, now it's time to move on.
Wait a second, I just spotted a flaw in the set up.
Max members in an SG: 75
Max amount of characters in the Hive/Abyss: 50
So... Does an SG make a Hive 2 and do a 32/33 man raid in each?
Fun idea: The Hami-race. Spawn two or more Hives/Abysses and see who finishes first. You only need 50+N characters to create N instances. (Leave one character in Hive 1, 50 goes to Hive 2, spawns Hive 3 and so on.)
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A while back Statesman explained the reason that SGs cap at 75 members is because they felt bases couldn't handle more than 75 players at one time. Everyone countered that no SG actually had 75 individual players on at the same time, and most SGs were actually comprised of a much smaller number of players with multiple alts as members.
Now you're saying that raids shouldn't be 50 people cap because SGs can have 75 people who want to raid? Have more people started playing since then? Does this SG membership cap now actually make sense?
You want a larger zone cap on the hive, or do you want more SG members? Cause we can't really use the same arguement to justify both.
Formerly "Back Alley Brawler"
way to limit dominator usefulness before the trial even comes out devs! Sounds like for villains its another corrupter/brute (maybe mm) lovefest.
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From the article:
[ QUOTE ]
The Problems
<ul type="square">[*] Hamidon raids are a hotspot for griefing[*] Hamidon raids reward Leeching [/list]
[/ QUOTE ]
It's unclear to me how this new implementation solves these problems. The word "leech" (and variants) doesn't occur again in the article. Griefing is explained away by this vague bit:
[ QUOTE ]
Weve also changed the way Hamidon spawns Mitochondria to protect himself as hes damaged. This change will prevent a raid from ever reaching the dreaded sea of orange names or yellow dawn, which also greatly reduces the impact of rogue players attempting to grief a Hamidon raid.
[/ QUOTE ]
So what's to stop a lone griefer from training giant monsters on the raiders? Or monkeying with Hami or mito aggro?
Instancing would have stopped both griefing and leeching much more decisively, but
[ QUOTE ]
We recognize that Hamidon raids are a big social event as well as a PvE encounter. They're a unique opportunity for a lot of players to congregate in one place and fight one common enemy. Because of this, we chose to not go with an instanced trial.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure how 50 random people defeating Hami is any more social than 50 people who know one another doing it. If you instanced it, it would still be x people (where x is however many required to defeat Hami) being social. As it stands now, it will be x people and (50-x) griefers, leechers or gawkers.
I don't know, but it seems like instancing was eschewed for questionable benefit in a case where it would have solved two explicit problems.
Scrap
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How often is Lusca griefed? When people actually get together to take him down I mean, how often does someone show up to grief? Never. Why? Because it's not a rare occurance and it's not something a player can actually affect. That's something a lot of people are overlooking. People grief because it's effective. If there's no longer an effective way to grief at Hamidon raids, then they won't grief them.
The raid zones (Hive/Abyss) will instance at a much lower number than any other zone in the game. Estimations are at around 40 players. This means it's very likely that anytime enough people get together for a raid, a new instance is going to open. I think it's very likely that there will always be at least 2 instances, possibly 3, 4, maybe 5 instances when this first goes live and everyone's trying to raid at the same time.
That means that Hamidon is no longer just one thing in one place at one time as a big target for some griefer. That automatically makes it much harder for a single person to grief a raid.
Add to this that Hamidon is spawned by player action...presumably he can be spawned at any time. It's very possible that when Hamidon is defeated in Hive 1, he could be immediately respawned in Hive 1 and defeated again. There could be 4 zones open with back to back Hami raids in all of them. That also makes Hamidon raids a lot less unique.
Third, and most importantly, no more monsters in the hive when Hamidon spawns. The vast majority of griefing is done by someone pulling GMs into the raid party. No more GMs, no more hold phase, no more yellow mito spawn. So griefing will consist of what exactly? Jumping around talking about how everyone smells bad? /ignore player. They can't cause a failed raid because there won't be a failure point for raids. You can either defeat Hamidon or you can keep at it until you do. Hamidon never wins. That simple.
As for leeching, you get too many players into a raid zone that aren't going to be helping then the raids won't succeed. You can't leech from something that doesn't succeed. Leeching only works now because you can jump in on the tail end of a raid that's going to succeed whether you help or not and get your free reward. You can get it for any number of accounts you can log in on. With a zone cap, that's not going to happen. If you don't get there early, you're not going to be a part of that raid and you're not going to get in later.
So really that only leaves the possiblity of someone who's been involved in the raid the whole time crashing or being mapserved at the tail end. Yeah, I know the possibility of dropping from a zone exists, but let's be really honest about this. How likely is it that swarms of players are going to hang out on the door for 2 hours or however long it takes to raid, trying to click on Hive 1, Hive 2, or Hive 3 so they can slip in just in case someone DCs? Sure, it's possible...but is it really that likely? I just don't see it as happening. That's too much work to avoid doing any work. I'm willing to just wait and see if that's actually a common problem before demanding they implement a solution to prevent it (and postponing Issue 9 going live for even longer). I'll give you it's likely to happen initially just because the game's always a bit fidgety after a new issue, and everyone's going to be clamoring to get in to see the new Hamidon. But when things finally settle down into a predictable pattern of raids, I really don't think this is going to be an issue.
There's also lots of ways that we as players can prevent a lot of that ourselves...things like, oh...maybe not allowing known leechers to be members of our global channels where we plan and organize raids. Maybe not announcing in those global channels that the raids about to be over. If they don't know when and where a raid is going on, they'd have to be really motivated to monitor the player searches or just hang out at the hive entrance 24/7 waiting for their opportunity. I've yet to meet that level of dedication in someone trying to avoid doing something.
Formerly "Back Alley Brawler"
soo what happens in 4-6 months when the "NEW" hami is as old hat as the current? when the players have figured out a safe, fast way to win?I know the "new and improved" hami raids,my only request instead of a 24 hour limit it be either 20 or 22 hours, take the case we start the raid at 8pm est, and finsih at 10 pm est, then having to wait til 10 pm the next day, as some of have a small habit of sleeping and going to work , if it was lesser it would still limit the repeatable and give us a small cool down time
Fluffy Bunny 1 Person SG
Rabid Bunny 1 Person VG
Both on Pinnacle
Hobbit's Hole 1 Person SG
Spider's Web 1 Person VG
Both on Freedom
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From the article:
[ QUOTE ]
The Problems
<ul type="square">[*] Hamidon raids are a hotspot for griefing[*] Hamidon raids reward Leeching [/list]
[/ QUOTE ]
It's unclear to me how this new implementation solves these problems. The word "leech" (and variants) doesn't occur again in the article. Griefing is explained away by this vague bit:
[ QUOTE ]
Weve also changed the way Hamidon spawns Mitochondria to protect himself as hes damaged. This change will prevent a raid from ever reaching the dreaded sea of orange names or yellow dawn, which also greatly reduces the impact of rogue players attempting to grief a Hamidon raid.
[/ QUOTE ]
So what's to stop a lone griefer from training giant monsters on the raiders? Or monkeying with Hami or mito aggro?
Instancing would have stopped both griefing and leeching much more decisively, but
[ QUOTE ]
We recognize that Hamidon raids are a big social event as well as a PvE encounter. They're a unique opportunity for a lot of players to congregate in one place and fight one common enemy. Because of this, we chose to not go with an instanced trial.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure how 50 random people defeating Hami is any more social than 50 people who know one another doing it. If you instanced it, it would still be x people (where x is however many required to defeat Hami) being social. As it stands now, it will be x people and (50-x) griefers, leechers or gawkers.
I don't know, but it seems like instancing was eschewed for questionable benefit in a case where it would have solved two explicit problems.
Scrap
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But the big problem is, how exactly do you setup Hami as a private instance for 40-50 people? The tech for that simply may not exist. Of course the logical thought is make it like the CoP trial. But how do you make a setup like that accessible to the general public? That's the problem. Again, the tech to make that possible may not exist, or be possible to implement. Besides, sometimes it's hard enough to get one 8 man team going. Imagine trying to get five teams organized and running.
The only problem with making like a CoP trial is....
THEY HAVEN'T FIXED THE CoP TRIAL SINCE IT WAS PROMISED IN ISSUE 6 AS A BOX FEATURE FOR CoV.
Somehow...I don't think you folks would ever see a Hami raid if that was the case.
Tic,
You wouldn't know it to meet me now, but I used to be a prolific vandal when I was a teenager. I mention this not because I'm proud of it (I'm not), but because it gives you a bit of context for why I see the following points the way I do.
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How often is Lusca griefed? When people actually get together to take him down I mean, how often does someone show up to grief? Never. Why? Because it's not a rare occurance and it's not something a player can actually affect.
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I don't believe scarcity has anything to do with it. If I'm a griefer, the more opportunities the merrier. Why wouldn't I grief Lusca? Because it's more or less impossible. Here's why: 1) there isn't any really deadly aggro in the area to train on people, and 2) because taking Lusca out doesn't require any particularly advanced tactics or large-group coordination that I can exploit to create a lot of orange names. It's lack of opportunity, pure and simple. If Lusca spawned near Monster Island in PI, or if Lusca required Hami-style coordination, you'd see a lot more Lusca griefing.
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I think it's very likely that there will always be at least 2 instances, possibly 3, 4, maybe 5 instances when this first goes live and everyone's trying to raid at the same time.
That means that Hamidon is no longer just one thing in one place at one time as a big target for some griefer. That automatically makes it much harder for a single person to grief a raid.
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If somebody told me as a teenager that I would have to browse four different versions of my neighborhood to find some good things to vandalize, I'd have been delighted. Why? Because it means potentially four times as many things to hit. If things aren't working out in one zone, then I have one, two, three, maybe four others to try.
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Add to this that Hamidon is spawned by player action...presumably he can be spawned at any time. It's very possible that when Hamidon is defeated in Hive 1, he could be immediately respawned in Hive 1 and defeated again. There could be 4 zones open with back to back Hami raids in all of them. That also makes Hamidon raids a lot less unique.
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I'm not with you on the "unique" argument. I don't see why uniqueness is a draw for griefers. If you've played other MMOs, surely you've seen plenty of griefing that didn't rely on large raids or other "unique" events.
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Third, and most importantly, no more monsters in the hive when Hamidon spawns.
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Why do you think so? Other people seem to think so, too, and I'm not sure why. I think either I've missed something in the article or I'm not up to date on my informed speculation. Is it because of this statement in the Curse Gaming article?
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The Devouring Earth monsters that roam in The Hive and The Abyss need to be defeated in order for Hamidon to spawn.
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Are folks assuming this means that all the GMs in the zone have to be defeated? I can see why somebody might read this statement that way, but I also see that it doesn't necessarily mean that.
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Leeching only works now because you can jump in on the tail end of a raid that's going to succeed whether you help or not and get your free reward.
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This confuses me. To me, somebody who shows up at the start of the raid, doesn't lift a finger except to get his hit on Hami during the hold phase, and then collects his HO is still leeching. You seem to be assuming that people wouldn't leech if the door to the Hive closed and locked after a raid started. I think instead leechers would show up at the beginning of a raid. Just because it's most convenient to pop in at the last minute now doesn't mean that's the only way a leecher will do it.
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If you don't get there early, you're not going to be a part of that raid and you're not going to get in later.
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Why not? I'm not sure how you can know this. Are you assuming that raiders will always have groups of precisely 50 people who enter the zone in a coordinated fashion? Or are you figuring that the people who join after the main raid group is in will all be participants? Let's say a raid group of 32 people, 4 full teams, shows up and starts working the GMs in order to spawn Hami. So far you've suggested that no griefers will appear, but you're also suggesting the zone will fill up. Who will be doing the filling, in that case? And why couldn't some of those people be griefers and leechers?
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How likely is it that swarms of players are going to hang out on the door for 2 hours or however long it takes to raid, trying to click on Hive 1, Hive 2, or Hive 3 so they can slip in just in case someone DCs? Sure, it's possible...but is it really that likely?
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You don't have to hang out. When you see 3 or more hives in the search list, head to Eden and try each of them. If you can't get in, then go back to what you were doing. Heck, if you have a dedicated griefing toon (tankers work so well), just always log him out at the Eden entrance - then finding out if you can get into an Eden zone to grief is as quick as a relog.
I'm still confused by why you think every raid instance will fill up with people who are earnestly trying to participate in the raid. Even if your mental model is "participants show up early, leechers and griefers show up late," once the leechers and griefers find out that being late doesn't work, they'll stop being late.
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I'm willing to just wait and see if that's actually a common problem before demanding they implement a solution to prevent it (and postponing Issue 9 going live for even longer).
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I don't remember making a demand of any sort, particularly not requesting any particular implementation. What I do remember writing is that I find it odd that they eschewed instancing, which would solve leeching and griefing categorically (as per your "If there's no longer an effective way to grief at Hamidon raids, then they won't grief them" statement), because of a dubious "social" benefit which would be present in an instance anyway.
Put another way: if an open zone is more social than an instance, then it's because people you didn't expect show up. If people you don't expect show up, then there is certainly a chance that some of them will be griefers, leechers, or gawkers. If your predictions that it will be practically unfeasible for leechers or griefers to show up are accurate, then the social benefit of an open zone over an instance is negated. One way or the other, it doesn't make sense: either you've got an open zone that is more social and prone to griefing, or you've got an open zone that only participating raiders can get into and so it's no more social than it would be if it were an instance.
As presented in the article, it looks to me like a clumsy design for questionable benefit. It raises the bar somewhat for leechers and griefers, but it's a little more social. I'd rather have the solution that 100% stops leeching and griefing and is only 80% as social as an open zone. Wouldn't you?
I suspect that something else has been done to prevent the leeching problem and it just wasn't mentioned in the article. The omission of a solution for that particular problem was a little too obvious for me to believe they didn't account for it in the design. I'm not sure what the solution is, but perhaps something similar to the "You haven't been on the mission map long enough to qualify for a reward" feature.
Even if so, griefing is the bigger issue to me.
Scrap
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Wait... Posi goofed? 
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I take credit for the mistake, but blame the fact-checker for being sick that day. 
I think I can now safely say that I have forgotten more about this game than most will ever know, and I proved it.
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Yes, you've obviously also forgotten about that Carnie Mastermind set you promised a couple of months back as well.....
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Begone, foul logic!
The power of teh intrawebs compels you!!
(I also need a young hacker, and an old one, to make this really work. Anyone got some to spare?)
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm old and I hacked something up this morning. Do I qualify?
Dec out.
I've read the post on redesigning Hamidon several times, and, you still we not need a defender. As long a controller secondaries do not scale to defenders, the same way defender secondaries scale to blasters, no mission in this game will require a defender.
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I've read the post on redesigning Hamidon several times, and, you still we not need a defender. As long a controller secondaries do not scale to defenders, the same way defender secondaries scale to blasters, no mission in this game will require a defender.
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You mean defenders aren't useful?
Oh good, I can stop teaming with them then.
Formerly "Back Alley Brawler"
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I think I can now safely say that I have forgotten more about this game than most will ever know, and I proved it.
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Does this mean "Forgetful" will be the 39 month veteran badge? 
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
*Stares at the 'new' dev.*
Where'd he come from? 
Arc ID: 475246, "Bringing a Lord to Power"
"I'm only a simple man trying to cling to my tomorrow. Every day. By any means necessary."
-Caldwell B. Cladwell
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Yeah, the 50 players cap on The Hive/Abyss should be interesting to see how it play out.
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I really don't like Cryptic making this exclusionary move. It screams "Hi, we're too cheap to provide the adequate resources to handle a raid of over 50 players." It shows up Cryptic's continual lack of committment to its own game and its own player base.
Total Focus is a hold, right?
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Interesting article. I noticed the 50 player cap too. I never raided Hamidon before, how many people could you get in there before?
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I think the Hive instances at about 200, give or take 20-30.
This Hamidon looks to be interesting to fight. It'll be good to shake up the good old "clear mitos, hold Hamidon, kill Hamidon" strategy. It's served us well, now it's time to move on.
Wait a second, I just spotted a flaw in the set up.
Max members in an SG: 75
Max amount of characters in the Hive/Abyss: 50
So... Does an SG make a Hive 2 and do a 32/33 man raid in each?
Fun idea: The Hami-race. Spawn two or more Hives/Abysses and see who finishes first. You only need 50+N characters to create N instances. (Leave one character in Hive 1, 50 goes to Hive 2, spawns Hive 3 and so on.)
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And what about SG's that have several "chapters" to the the pathetically low limit of members per SG?
Total Focus is a hold, right?
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Interesting article. I noticed the 50 player cap too. I never raided Hamidon before, how many people could you get in there before?
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I think the Hive instances at about 200, give or take 20-30.
This Hamidon looks to be interesting to fight. It'll be good to shake up the good old "clear mitos, hold Hamidon, kill Hamidon" strategy. It's served us well, now it's time to move on.
Wait a second, I just spotted a flaw in the set up.
Max members in an SG: 75
Max amount of characters in the Hive/Abyss: 50
So... Does an SG make a Hive 2 and do a 32/33 man raid in each?
Fun idea: The Hami-race. Spawn two or more Hives/Abysses and see who finishes first. You only need 50+N characters to create N instances. (Leave one character in Hive 1, 50 goes to Hive 2, spawns Hive 3 and so on.)
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And what about SG's that have several "chapters" to the the pathetically low limit of members per SG?
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I guess they can split up and do several instances of the Hamidon at once. So instead of one raid of 200 people from this hypothetical SG (and all associated chapters), they can have 4 raids of 50 each. Which would be easier to manage on a per raid basis, I would think.
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hamidon still sucks and is a tedious affair, adding a couple of extra tasks to the event does nothing to resolve the fact that fighting a blob of jelly just isnt fun. Statesman wishes they invested more time into the hamidon in the first place as it didnt come out the way they envisioned, this is just puting a band aid on a decapitation victim. Hamidon should have evolved into a Galactus like entity IMO
I am also fearful of the way the devs equate rediculously hard with fun, the rollbacked AV/GM buff is a prime example as is the exclusionary setup of the last mission in the RSF which renders many ATs simply unwanted.
Punching deadly jelly = dull dull dull
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/agreed
It's as dull as the Eden grindfest...er trial...
Total Focus is a hold, right?
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Yeah, the 50 players cap on The Hive/Abyss should be interesting to see how it play out.
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I really don't like Cryptic making this exclusionary move. It screams "Hi, we're too cheap to provide the adequate resources to handle a raid of over 50 players." It shows up Cryptic's continual lack of committment to its own game and its own player base.
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Alternatively: "We aren't redesigning a core system from the ground up for one piece of content. Instead, we'll spend that programmer time on things that a larger proportion of the player base can enjoy."
well maybe they are making the hami such a pain that we all will jump on the lets farm for IO bandwagon.personally I thik IO are going to be a pain and boring, I would rather do a 2 hour hami raid than farm for IO salvage
Fluffy Bunny 1 Person SG
Rabid Bunny 1 Person VG
Both on Pinnacle
Hobbit's Hole 1 Person SG
Spider's Web 1 Person VG
Both on Freedom
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I take credit for the mistake, but blame the fact-checker for being sick that day.
I think I can now safely say that I have forgotten more about this game than most will ever know, and I proved it.
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You know, I wish more folks could turn what might be viewed as a negative experience into a positive one. The world would be a happier place.
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I wholeheartedly agree.
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qft.
Lady-Dee: Hey my fat keeps me warm in the winter and shady in the summer.