Disappointment in the Update Schedule
By
8_Ball,
Posted on: 2006-11-21 24:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Someone is watching this thread closely, it seems. A bunch of posts got deleted when Friggin Taser had a momentary lapse in logic.
EDIT: it's ok Taser, ur still awsome.
[/ QUOTE ] Friggin Taser post is what got deleted , anyone that replied off his original post were automatically deleted.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep. Unfortunately, posts are sort of chained together on this forum, so if you delete one post, all posts that replied to the deleted post go in the can as well.
I've noticed a few times that Lighthouse has taken to just editing out the content of a post and putting in "Post Deleted by Lighthouse" or words to that effect. I much prefer that approach.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But is what you want feasible?
[/ QUOTE ]
World of Warcraft seems to handle it just fine.
[/ QUOTE ]
*falls out of chair laughing*
Oh man my poor keyboard.
BWAHAHAHAHA
[/ QUOTE ]
Why is this so funny? Could you please explain? I've played WoW a couple times(only 1 month when I first bought and just recently). It's not my particular cup of tea but my friends like it a lot and that's mainly the reason I play it. I like playing with RL friends where possible. I'm here because I love superheroes but even the current release schedule is getting to me. I didn't find WoW a bad game and there was certainly a LOT to do and according to one friend, he was quite happy with the content/frequency of the updates. I don't understand that in all non-WoW forums, there is nothing but hate and the spurning of it's success especially if the two games are compared.
[/ QUOTE ]
I played WoW for a few months. I ran out of things to do, I played a few character to high levels, both sides.
The reason why it is so funny is because Blizzard is HORRIBLE at keeping their schedules. We aren't talking weeks or months off, but years.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair, though, that's not really what's being discussed.
Blizzard never gives deadlines out for their games, saying, "They'll be released when they're ready". That much is true.
Regarding WoW, though, they've been pretty much like clockwork since their initial post-launch update lull, with an update of some kind every few months or so.
Though thier box expansion has been pushed back from a pre-christmas launch to the New Year.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our devs can do better than that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not even Blizzard, a company highly regarded for it's quality of games, can do the things you ask.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's very easy to produce quality games when you produce them years behind schedule/release dates.
Star Craft Ghost anyone? Release date, November 2004, shelved until further notice.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair, though, Blizzard wasn't the ones actually developing Starcraft: Ghost. It was a third-party from the very beginning, with Nihilistic being the original developer, before it was later moved to Swingin' Ape studios.
Right, but that hasn't stopped their free updates, as far as I know.
Also, let it be known: I frackin' hate WoW. I think it's over-praised and excels only in its mediocrity.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our devs can do better than that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not even Blizzard, a company highly regarded for it's quality of games, can do the things you ask.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's very easy to produce quality games when you produce them years behind schedule/release dates.
Star Craft Ghost anyone? Release date, November 2004, shelved until further notice.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair, though, Blizzard wasn't the ones actually developing Starcraft: Ghost. It was a third-party from the very beginning, with Nihilistic being the original developer, before it was later moved to Swingin' Ape studios.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, well how about WoW, it was delayed. The update for battlegrounds was also delayed. D2 was delayed way back when, so was Brood Wars. In fact, I honestly can't remember a single game that came out when they first said it would hehe.
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
Anyone remmeber when this thread was about I8?
ARRRGGG! I hate it when the long, crafted post of mine vanishes within moments of posting due to the stupid fact I didn't thread it off the OP.
Once more with feeling.
I develop software for a living. I've worked on projects that must have a major release every year due to trade shows. They also need to have minor releases 2-3 times a year to fix bugs or add specific features targeted at a limited number of customers.
First, people seem to forget how buggy I7 was. From the pet AI to broken missions to mexican magic stores to busted trams. Fixing the worse of these will take time away from developers working on the next release. Time is the only resource a software project uses and can't be recovered. Some of the delay may be coming from a renewed effort to find and fix the really stupid bugs before it even gets to the test server.
Second, even though the basic framework of how safeguard missions will work is based on mayhem missions in CoV, you still need to create all the content for those missions. There is a contact for every normal zone and each of those need a number of missions you can run plus the big safeguard mission at the end. Even if these missions are relatively small when compared to normal missions, constructing all of them will take time.
Third, Veteran Rewards. This has to work right out of the gate, otherwise there will be a lot of POed players. There is additional content that needs to be created, costumes, animations, base bling, mechanism to claim respecs and choosing powers.
Forth, a relatively old threaded interpretive language written by an astronomer in the 70s. Sorry, couldn't help myself ... again. 
Fifth, disruptions in the planed release schedule, the dumping of the paid update and rolling those planned features into future free releases. Also the change in lead for the project may have had some disruptive effect.
Sixth, the surprise release of GvE with it's goody pack of costume and powers might have had a minor impact, along with the Halloween event. Even though a large part of the event was the same as the first one in 2004, there was enough added to make it non-trivial.
That's the bulk of what I remembered writing last time. Now watch this whole thread get nuked by the time I get back to checking it out again in a few hours.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone remmeber when this thread was about I8?
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope. Soon as someone decides to bring up other gaming companies it all goes downhill.
Ok, so it went downhill way before that.. but still.
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
<QR>
We remember when Posi said they wanted to get I8 out by September right? Who would've been ok with a slight delay, like early October?
I'm just wondering if it's the fact that it feels late or if it's the amount of time that it feels late by that's getting some of us a little frazzled.
I don't have a problem with I8 being a bit late, but going from a hoped-for September date to one nearly in December is more than a bit late.
But there's nothing we can do about it, really, except to voice our concerns and hope the devs can deliver new updates in a more timely manner once I8 is out.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our devs can do better than that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not even Blizzard, a company highly regarded for it's quality of games, can do the things you ask.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's very easy to produce quality games when you produce them years behind schedule/release dates.
Star Craft Ghost anyone? Release date, November 2004, shelved until further notice.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair, though, Blizzard wasn't the ones actually developing Starcraft: Ghost. It was a third-party from the very beginning, with Nihilistic being the original developer, before it was later moved to Swingin' Ape studios.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, well how about WoW, it was delayed. The update for battlegrounds was also delayed. D2 was delayed way back when, so was Brood Wars. In fact, I honestly can't remember a single game that came out when they first said it would hehe.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now see, that part I'm not denying at all.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't have a problem with I8 being a bit late, but going from a hoped-for September date to one nearly in December is more than a bit late.
But there's nothing we can do about it, really, except to voice our concerns and hope the devs can deliver new updates in a more timely manner once I8 is out.
[/ QUOTE ]
What if, when it looked like it was going to be late, and let's not kid ourselves, someone knew it wasn't going to be a quick fix. When it looked like September just wasn't going to happen at all, would it have been acceptable to you (lurkers, you guys answer too, ok) if Cryptic came out and said, "I8 will be released, but we can't get all of it done. We're releasing this part now (insert something, costumes, safeguard missions, whatever isn't totally fubared right now) and we'll release the rest when it's ready."
I guess I'm playing dev-fangirl here and trying to find away that they can placate us.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our devs can do better than that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not even Blizzard, a company highly regarded for it's quality of games, can do the things you ask.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's very easy to produce quality games when you produce them years behind schedule/release dates.
Star Craft Ghost anyone? Release date, November 2004, shelved until further notice.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be fair, though, Blizzard wasn't the ones actually developing Starcraft: Ghost. It was a third-party from the very beginning, with Nihilistic being the original developer, before it was later moved to Swingin' Ape studios.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, well how about WoW, it was delayed. The update for battlegrounds was also delayed. D2 was delayed way back when, so was Brood Wars. In fact, I honestly can't remember a single game that came out when they first said it would hehe.
[/ QUOTE ]
Now see, that part I'm not denying at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
tha'ts because it's a developement house that publishes their own games, so the games are pretty as hell with all kinds of fancy cut-scenes and movies and pretty graphics, but by the time the game is released anything "new" about it will have been done already because it took so damn long to come out.
For as muhc as I hate publishers like EA and LucasArts and Atari for pushing their dev houses too hard and playing the "release it now, patch it later game", Blizzard is a prime example of the other end of the spectrum.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
I might be wrong, but hasn't the time between "New issue on test" and "new issue on live" been greater than normal?
There are a number of things that, when drawn out to their maximum, can be that much more pleasurable when finally occuring. However, if drawn out too long any additional pleasure is lost as a result of the frustration.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
[ QUOTE ]
I develop software for a living. I've worked on projects that must have a major release every year due to trade shows. They also need to have minor releases 2-3 times a year to fix bugs or add specific features targeted at a limited number of customers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Same here. The difference between what we do and this, though, is that if we miss a release date, we're screwed financially. This isn't a product that's sold independently, so the market impact is different.
The rest of your post is spot on.
[ QUOTE ]
But there's nothing we can do about it, really, except to voice our concerns and hope the devs can deliver new updates in a more timely manner once I8 is out.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I've switched from auto-renewal to monthly billing myself. When I'm unhappy, I don't pay/play for a while. Aside from that, it's an indication that they need to earn my money month-to-month--it's not guaranteed income anymore.
A slight delay, I think, would be OK with most folks. There would of course be some complaining, thats inevitable. Its when delays start to get longer and longer, and it seems like its becoming a pattern that people get more riled up. Its like if your friend is late by ten or fifteen minutes to meet you, thats not so big a deal. But if that friend is a hour late, thats more of an issue. And if your friend is consistantly an hour late, then, you start wondering if its worth making plans with them anymore. 
Originally, IIRC, Issue Seven was aimed at being released in April. To that end, they started promoting it in Febuary. And then for various reasons it didn't arrive on Live until June. Which meant we'd been hearing about the issue for months by then. The sense of excitement and anticipation that the initial promotion of an issue brings gets replaced by a "is this thing ever coming out" sort of feeling.
Issue Eight is suffering from some of the same problems. Not so much the premature promotion, but the taking too long to go from Test to Live. I think part of what is upsetting people is that the Issue Seven debacle, which we had hoped was an isolated incident, feels like it could be becoming the standard to expect from now on.
I don't know, it just feels to me like the sense of excitement and energy that a new update brings to the game is getting squandered by the delays. When CoV launched, we had the highest subscriber count the game has seen, excepting perhaps the months between CoH Launch and WoW launching. Failing to get an update out for six months after that really squandered a lot of that momentum in my opinion. And it feels like this becoming a pattern. Thats not good.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
[ QUOTE ]
tha'ts because it's a developement house that publishes their own games, so the games are pretty as hell with all kinds of fancy cut-scenes and movies and pretty graphics, but by the time the game is released anything "new" about it will have been done already because it took so damn long to come out.
For as muhc as I hate publishers like EA and LucasArts and Atari for pushing their dev houses too hard and playing the "release it now, patch it later game", Blizzard is a prime example of the other end of the spectrum.
[/ QUOTE ]
Prime example yes. But none the less, they really should not give out release dates when they are nowhere near even close to having a game done. Don't get me wrong, I like Blizzard, I have a bunch of their games, I love them (ok, not a WoW fan, got bored of it way too fast), even made new maps and mods for Star Craft with my brother, but I have always hated how they say "such and such will be out on...." and then push it back 3-5 times.
But, back on topic. I still prefer that the devs of this game take their time in getting things working better, though maybe in the future trying to do less per issue might be a good idea.
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
[ QUOTE ]
I might be wrong, but hasn't the time between "New issue on test" and "new issue on live" been greater than normal?
There are a number of things that, when drawn out to their maximum, can be that much more pleasurable when finally occuring. However, if drawn out too long any additional pleasure is lost as a result of the frustration.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but when unforseen crap comes up, would giving us one bit, then another bit, then the big bit be better than just posting on the forums and taking a break from the game itself until the issue finally hits?
[ QUOTE ]
What if, when it looked like it was going to be late, and let's not kid ourselves, someone knew it wasn't going to be a quick fix. When it looked like September just wasn't going to happen at all, would it have been acceptable to you (lurkers, you guys answer too, ok) if Cryptic came out and said, "I8 will be released, but we can't get all of it done. We're releasing this part now (insert something, costumes, safeguard missions, whatever isn't totally fubared right now) and we'll release the rest when it's ready."
[/ QUOTE ]
Aside from disabling the Vet reward triggers, I'm not sure if they could have split things up without creating even more work and risking more bugs. Without knowing how integrated or modular the features are, it's tough to see if it could be done piecemeal or if it was an all-or-nothing deal.
Even if it could be released in phases, that adds additional workload behind the scenes--a lot of additional workload. Which, in turn means resourses get tied up, and other things in the pipeline get delayed, and furture schedules get slipped or have to be seriously reworked. It's a godawful mess when you start mucking with content at the tail end of a development cycle, and you don't want to go down that road unless you have no other choice. Since a delay will not adversely affect sales, and will likely only marginally affect subscriptions, there's probably not much to be gained by phasing the release just to placate the concerned subscribers (which may be only a small, though vocal group, relative to the entire player base anyhow).
[ QUOTE ]
Aside from disabling the Vet reward triggers, I'm not sure if they could have split things up without creating even more work and risking more bugs. Without knowing how integrated or modular the features are, it's tough to see if it could be done piecemeal or if it was an all-or-nothing deal.
Even if it could be released in phases, that adds additional workload behind the scenes--a lot of additional workload. Which, in turn means resourses get tied up, and other things in the pipeline get delayed, and furture schedules get slipped or have to be seriously reworked. It's a godawful mess when you start mucking with content at the tail end of a development cycle, and you don't want to go down that road unless you have no other choice. Since a delay will not adversely affect sales, and will likely only marginally affect subscriptions, there's probably not much to be gained by phasing the release just to placate the concerned subscribers (which may be only a small, though vocal group, relative to the entire player base anyhow).
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok... It was just a random thought.
[ QUOTE ]
Prime example yes. But none the less, they really should not give out release dates when they are nowhere near even close to having a game done.
[/ QUOTE ]
well, no kidding, that's kinda what I'm getting at.
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but when unforseen crap comes up, would giving us one bit, then another bit, then the big bit be better than just posting on the forums and taking a break from the game itself until the issue finally hits?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, we don't really know how it's put together. It could be that every issue is more or less a package deal. It seems likley with I8 that they could have given us the issue and then the vet rewards later, I guess.
Either way, people like to talk about how active the devs are on the forums, but quite frankly, as much as they might be, I'd like to see a little more feedback on stuff like this.
"Hey, guys, we're running behind because we have issues X, Y and Z to deal with. Not sure how long it'll take, we'll keep you posted."
"Hey, guys, got issue X dealt with, just wrapping up on Y but Z is still giving us some trouble, keep you posted."
But there is very little of that in terms of how they communicate their timing. Instead we're supposed to sit on our hands.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What if, when it looked like it was going to be late, and let's not kid ourselves, someone knew it wasn't going to be a quick fix. When it looked like September just wasn't going to happen at all, would it have been acceptable to you (lurkers, you guys answer too, ok) if Cryptic came out and said, "I8 will be released, but we can't get all of it done. We're releasing this part now (insert something, costumes, safeguard missions, whatever isn't totally fubared right now) and we'll release the rest when it's ready."
[/ QUOTE ]
Aside from disabling the Vet reward triggers, I'm not sure if they could have split things up without creating even more work and risking more bugs. Without knowing how integrated or modular the features are, it's tough to see if it could be done piecemeal or if it was an all-or-nothing deal.
Even if it could be released in phases, that adds additional workload behind the scenes--a lot of additional workload. Which, in turn means resourses get tied up, and other things in the pipeline get delayed, and furture schedules get slipped or have to be seriously reworked. It's a godawful mess when you start mucking with content at the tail end of a development cycle, and you don't want to go down that road unless you have no other choice. Since a delay will not adversely affect sales, and will likely only marginally affect subscriptions, there's probably not much to be gained by phasing the release just to placate the concerned subscribers (which may be only a small, though vocal group, relative to the entire player base anyhow).
[/ QUOTE ]
They released them in bits onto Test, though. Not being able to release individual bits means that their development strategy is (perhaps necessarily) unmodular.
Heck, ideally they should be set up so that each individual system is its own piece which can be enabled or disabled independent of the rest, with little extra work outside of what's already a part of the standard publishing function they have now.
They managed to put in two types of wings without enabling all the other types, and the Cathedral of Pain has been disabled since CoV's release, so there is SOME ability to break things into smaller pieces. They just need to take that further, so that if something (Vet Rewards, for instance) isn't ready, they can say, "Sorry guys, Vet Rewards have some issues. Good news, though, we're still releasing everything else from I8 now, with the rewards to follow!" (Like they've done with the Fly poses.)
'course, that doesn't help them if there are major bugs in everything...
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What if, when it looked like it was going to be late, and let's not kid ourselves, someone knew it wasn't going to be a quick fix. When it looked like September just wasn't going to happen at all, would it have been acceptable to you (lurkers, you guys answer too, ok) if Cryptic came out and said, "I8 will be released, but we can't get all of it done. We're releasing this part now (insert something, costumes, safeguard missions, whatever isn't totally fubared right now) and we'll release the rest when it's ready."
[/ QUOTE ]
Aside from disabling the Vet reward triggers, I'm not sure if they could have split things up without creating even more work and risking more bugs. Without knowing how integrated or modular the features are, it's tough to see if it could be done piecemeal or if it was an all-or-nothing deal.
Even if it could be released in phases, that adds additional workload behind the scenes--a lot of additional workload. Which, in turn means resourses get tied up, and other things in the pipeline get delayed, and furture schedules get slipped or have to be seriously reworked. It's a godawful mess when you start mucking with content at the tail end of a development cycle, and you don't want to go down that road unless you have no other choice. Since a delay will not adversely affect sales, and will likely only marginally affect subscriptions, there's probably not much to be gained by phasing the release just to placate the concerned subscribers (which may be only a small, though vocal group, relative to the entire player base anyhow).
[/ QUOTE ]
They released them in bits onto Test, though. Not being able to release individual bits means that their development strategy is (perhaps necessarily) unmodular.
Heck, ideally they should be set up so that each individual system is its own piece which can be enabled or disabled independent of the rest, with little extra work outside of what's already a part of the standard publishing function they have now.
They managed to put in two types of wings without enabling all the other types, and the Cathedral of Pain has been disabled since CoV's release, so there is SOME ability to break things into smaller pieces. They just need to take that further, so that if something (Vet Rewards, for instance) isn't ready, they can say, "Sorry guys, Vet Rewards have some issues. Good news, though, we're still releasing everything else from I8 now, with the rewards to follow!" (Like they've done with the Fly poses.)
'course, that doesn't help them if there are major bugs in everything...
[/ QUOTE ]
While I think this is a good idea in theory; here's my huge concern with something like that.
People will still [censored].
Namely - you tell them "Sorry, everything about I8 will come out except for <insert feature>" and you'll spend the next 2 weeks-2 months dealing with bilespewing dev-hate filled rants on the boards because "X feature was the only reason I was keeping my subscription active!!"
Especially something major like Vet Rewards.
I'm not saying its not a better strategy overall - But it seems that people will be jerks regardless of how you swing it; and so I have to ask "Is it worth it to the devs to split things up into a more efficient system when the players will be just as gripey?"
Maybe thats just my own personality leaking through though - I know in their position I personally would do what's easiest for me unless I thought that doing something a particular way had a good chance of making a desirable impact. Failing that impact I'm just not going to muck with it.
Again, that's all personal opinion - I'd be fine seeing the updates switched to a smaller more modular approach; I just question how much impact it'd actually have.
A Warrior's Friend: ID 335212 - Help Infernal save Valkyrie from Battle Maiden.
Above Mars Part 1: The Wellington: ID 159769 - Save Mars by destroying a monstrous battleship from the inside!
>.> My DA page, where I attempt to art.
[ QUOTE ]
Someone is watching this thread closely, it seems. A bunch of posts got deleted when Friggin Taser had a momentary lapse in logic.
EDIT: it's ok Taser, ur still awsome.
[/ QUOTE ] Friggin Taser post is what got deleted , anyone that replied off his original post were automatically deleted.