Disappointment in the Update Schedule


8_Ball

 

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Heck, ideally they should be set up so that each individual system is its own piece which can be enabled or disabled independent of the rest, with little extra work outside of what's already a part of the standard publishing function they have now.

They managed to put in two types of wings without enabling all the other types, and the Cathedral of Pain has been disabled since CoV's release, so there is SOME ability to break things into smaller pieces. They just need to take that further, so that if something (Vet Rewards, for instance) isn't ready, they can say, "Sorry guys, Vet Rewards have some issues. Good news, though, we're still releasing everything else from I8 now, with the rewards to follow!" (Like they've done with the Fly poses.)


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There are a lot of factors that would need to be considered. Not knowing how their internal structure works, we can only talk in hypotheticals, but for example:

It's easier to roll out in phases than it is to back out pieces. One reason for this is that once a code branch has been integrated, newer code gets written based on the integrated branch. While it's possible to back out a branch, it might entail a rollback of far more than you want, and there develops merge issues, and adds risk. And every time you change the base, you cause a new test cycle to be needed. It's a lot of cost and risk and without much gain from the company's perspective.

In a perfect environment, your architecture would be highly modular, very layered and client-server oriented. Modules would be small and primitive and have very tightly defined interface specs. Adding something new would mean adding a new service, or replacing and old one, not unlike adding a physics card or swapping out your GPU for a better one--all plug and play. It's possible to do development like this: many places do, though I've seen little evidence of it in the gaming industry. It takes a significant up-front investment on architecture and specification and rigorous adherence to standards, which developers tend to rebel against ("limits our creative freedom" is the common refrain), as well as a big leap of faith from the money people because very early on you might not see anything practical showing up; useful stuff to be sure, but stuff that doesn't wow investors. Even though, in the end, you wind up with a system that's easier to maintain, far less prone to bugs, and ultimately faster and cheaper to produce.

Naturally, of course, this is all sensible and logical so this approach isn't often taken and instead code is churned out like sausage from a meat grinder and systems just start evolving. The more evolution, especially poorly documented evolution, the you wind up with a system that's a nightmare to keep running or to extend, resulting in the obligatory rewrite (typically done in phases to ease the pain).

The big long and short of it is that the plug-and-play approach could give you the ability to turn things on and off easily. The more common meat grinder approach doesn't--once you make the sausage, you're stuck with sausage.

Vet rewards could be presumably disabled simply by disabling the trigger that grants the rewards, unless some of the changes they made for reward items have disturbed or broken existing systems, in which case just holding off on the rewards wouldn't work because the thing that's broken isn't the reward itself but the thing the reward is based upon. Ugly, complicated mess, which is why I'm content to wait for a bit yet.


 

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lurkers, you guys answer too, ok

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You'd want us to come out of the shadows to voice our opinion? That would put our lurker status in jeopardy.

Personally, I'd like them to get what they have finished and tested released. If that means that the Vet Rewards will be delayed, fine by me. I won't even notice while I'm in Faultline, or on the Police Scanner.

The features of Issue 8 have no bearing on my subscription status, however. I would keep playing even if Issue 8 was going to be delayed a year, I just love playing CoH.

Now back to lurking!


 

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lurkers, you guys answer too, ok

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You'd want us to come out of the shadows to voice our opinion? That would put our lurker status in jeopardy.

Personally, I'd like them to get what they have finished and tested released. If that means that the Vet Rewards will be delayed, fine by me. I won't even notice while I'm in Faultline, or on the Police Scanner.

The features of Issue 8 have no bearing on my subscription status, however. I would keep playing even if Issue 8 was going to be delayed a year, I just love playing CoH.

Now back to lurking!

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It's Belkar! Don't listen to him! He's Chaotic Evil!... Or maybe Neutral Evil!

He's definitely *not* Lawful at least! <O.O> Which means he's lying!









(sorry <;_;> I loves me OOTS)


A Warrior's Friend: ID 335212 - Help Infernal save Valkyrie from Battle Maiden.
Above Mars Part 1: The Wellington: ID 159769 - Save Mars by destroying a monstrous battleship from the inside!
>.> My DA page, where I attempt to art.

 

Posted

I prefer more frequent, but smaller updates. I'm of amind, though, that these larger updates are significant enough to deem beign mentioned on a video game website's review page, which is extra advertisement and keeps the game "alive" in terms of those looking to pick something up.

Perhaps the reason we don't get more frequent, smaller updates, is because if we did, no one (other than pre-existing players) would care that "CoH patch 79658" was being released...


 

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I don't understand that in all non-WoW forums, there is nothing but hate and the spurning of it's success especially if the two games are compared.

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I may be wrong, Tutelary, but I think wates less about bagging on WoW than finding it humorous for someone to comment that WoW can handle running a MMOG demonstrably better than other companies when they've 'nerfed' their game as much as their competitors over the last year and have started slipping their release windows for content updates as much as their competitors.

You won't find a lot of WoW lovers here mostly because of the loot/no-loot appreciation divide between the two games, but you really won't find a lot of over-the-top WoW hating either. If anything, jabs at WoW here are more about people here bored with sword and sorcery games, of which WoW is the biggest example.


 

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Anyone remember when this thread was about I8?

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Zing!


 

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That's the bulk of what I remembered writing last time. Now watch this whole thread get nuked by the time I get back to checking it out again in a few hours.

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Listen, if you think you cranked out a really good post in a hot topic thread, you might want to hit the 'Print Post' button at the bottom of your post or the 'Print Thread' link at the bottom of the page and have the browser save it as a .html file for later.

I used to do that often for informative and flamey threads. Good info and good snark should never die.


 

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I don't have a problem with I8 being a bit late, but going from a hoped-for September date to one nearly in December is more than a bit late.

But there's nothing we can do about it, really, except to voice our concerns and hope the devs can deliver new updates in a more timely manner once I8 is out.

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What if, when it looked like it was going to be late, and let's not kid ourselves, someone knew it wasn't going to be a quick fix. When it looked like September just wasn't going to happen at all, would it have been acceptable to you (lurkers, you guys answer too, ok) if Cryptic came out and said, "I8 will be released, but we can't get all of it done. We're releasing this part now (insert something, costumes, safeguard missions, whatever isn't totally fubared right now) and we'll release the rest when it's ready."

I guess I'm playing dev-fangirl here and trying to find away that they can placate us.

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Y'mean like when we found out that Inventions was pushed back to I9 so I8 would come out this year?

That fork in the road you describe happened a couple of months ago now. Just saying. The title if the thread is not 'Disappointment in the I8 Schedule'. It's 'Disappointment in the Update Schedule' - meaning, in general for well over a year.

The thread has made it's point clear, and it may seem like mild dogpiling, but it's a mostly adult discussion that is worth being made for more than few posts then forgotten. We can't suggest anything that the fine people at Cryptic haven't had meetings and water cooler talk over, so the best we can do is try to describe our expectations and how they are or aren't being met.

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I guess I'm playing dev-fangirl here and trying to find away that they can placate us.

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This really isn't flame-war going on. We certainly aren't a family trying to get through an awkward dinner. I'm not sure if placating is required. Sometimes things don't have to end up wrapped into a pretty bow that everyone can appreciate. I'm sure there'll be plenty of over-exuberance once I8 goes Live, if history is any indication. The devs and mods can tune out the forum or even just the obvious critique threads until then if they want to.

Frankly, I'm sure most people don't give a fig about being placated. They just don't want to wait 6-8 months between major content updates and some want to register that publicly.


 

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Perhaps the reason we don't get more frequent, smaller updates, is because if we did, no one (other than pre-existing players) would care that "CoH patch 79658" was being released...

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As long as there's been a dev ready to supply quotage, every mini-event this game has done has gotten coverage online. I don't think the problem is that CoX can't get on Gamespy, MMORPG.com, or whatnot. It's that they run out of things that Cryptic people will talk about.

General P.S. - Normally I'd feel awkward about carpet-bombing a thread, but it's the early hours and not much posting going on anyway. By noon, this'll be at the bottom of the front page or lower.


 

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<QR>

We remember when Posi said they wanted to get I8 out by September right? Who would've been ok with a slight delay, like early October?

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<raising hand> Me! Me! Pick me!

FWIW, I consider myself a CoX fanboi and even I'M dissapointed at I8's release date.

There. I've said it. Me wants shineys now, mommy.

Hmph.


- Green Lantern
"Say, Jim...woo! That's a bad out-FIT!" - Superman: The Movie

Me 'n my posse: http://www.citygametracker.com/site/....php?user=5608

 

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I don't have a problem with I8 being a bit late, but going from a hoped-for September date to one nearly in December is more than a bit late.

But there's nothing we can do about it, really, except to voice our concerns and hope the devs can deliver new updates in a more timely manner once I8 is out.

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What if, when it looked like it was going to be late, and let's not kid ourselves, someone knew it wasn't going to be a quick fix. When it looked like September just wasn't going to happen at all, would it have been acceptable to you (lurkers, you guys answer too, ok) if Cryptic came out and said, "I8 will be released, but we can't get all of it done. We're releasing this part now (insert something, costumes, safeguard missions, whatever isn't totally fubared right now) and we'll release the rest when it's ready."

I guess I'm playing dev-fangirl here and trying to find away that they can placate us.

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That've worked for me.

(You go, fangirl)


- Green Lantern
"Say, Jim...woo! That's a bad out-FIT!" - Superman: The Movie

Me 'n my posse: http://www.citygametracker.com/site/....php?user=5608

 

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Prime example yes. But none the less, they really should not give out release dates when they are nowhere near even close to having a game done.

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well, no kidding, that's kinda what I'm getting at.

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Yeah, but when unforseen crap comes up, would giving us one bit, then another bit, then the big bit be better than just posting on the forums and taking a break from the game itself until the issue finally hits?

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Well, we don't really know how it's put together. It could be that every issue is more or less a package deal. It seems likley with I8 that they could have given us the issue and then the vet rewards later, I guess.

Either way, people like to talk about how active the devs are on the forums, but quite frankly, as much as they might be, I'd like to see a little more feedback on stuff like this.

"Hey, guys, we're running behind because we have issues X, Y and Z to deal with. Not sure how long it'll take, we'll keep you posted."

"Hey, guys, got issue X dealt with, just wrapping up on Y but Z is still giving us some trouble, keep you posted."

But there is very little of that in terms of how they communicate their timing. Instead we're supposed to sit on our hands.

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Agreed. I think the central issue here is communication. Or lack thereof.


- Green Lantern
"Say, Jim...woo! That's a bad out-FIT!" - Superman: The Movie

Me 'n my posse: http://www.citygametracker.com/site/....php?user=5608

 

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Don't worry Clint, I was just rambling, and I got it out of my system yesterday.


 

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We remember when Posi said they wanted to get I8 out by September right? Who would've been ok with a slight delay, like early October?

I'm just wondering if it's the fact that it feels late or if it's the amount of time that it feels late by that's getting some of us a little frazzled.

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Well, that and the fact that they already cut the major system it was intended to showcase. Now you've got Vet rewards (great... IF you happen to be a vet, zilch for the rest of us), a remodeled zone and safeguard missions.

CoP still offline, SSOCS/Inventions still put off to the indeterminate future.


 

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lurkers, you guys answer too, ok

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You'd want us to come out of the shadows to voice our opinion? That would put our lurker status in jeopardy.

Personally, I'd like them to get what they have finished and tested released. If that means that the Vet Rewards will be delayed, fine by me. I won't even notice while I'm in Faultline, or on the Police Scanner.

The features of Issue 8 have no bearing on my subscription status, however. I would keep playing even if Issue 8 was going to be delayed a year, I just love playing CoH.

Now back to lurking!

[/ QUOTE ]

It's Belkar! Don't listen to him! He's Chaotic Evil!... Or maybe Neutral Evil!

He's definitely *not* Lawful at least! <O.O> Which means he's lying!









(sorry <;_;> I loves me OOTS)

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Belkar is soooo CE. That little Ranger so has murder on the mind and random acts of total violence. =^ ^= Hmmm... But he does listen to Roy though, and not out of respect for Roy's strengths. That is the only way to keep those crazy homicidal CE's in line. >.> So, Nuetral Evil then? =O o=

...

<.<
>.>

I like OOTS too, what can I say.

=^o^=


 

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Perhaps the reason we don't get more frequent, smaller updates, is because if we did, no one (other than pre-existing players) would care that "CoH patch 79658" was being released...

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As long as there's been a dev ready to supply quotage, every mini-event this game has done has gotten coverage online. I don't think the problem is that CoX can't get on Gamespy, MMORPG.com, or whatnot. It's that they run out of things that Cryptic people will talk about.



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I don't believe that this is a concern. I believe that Posi confirmed the development schedule as 3 mo for small updates, which would be a competetive schedule within the MMORPG industry.

I think that the current CoX team is unable to meet this update schedule, unlike the Legacy CoH team, due to either innefficiency, sloppy programming, understaffing, buracracy, or a combination such negative traits which are part of the currect team of devs. Perhaps some of the devs leaving, such as Lord Recluse, Statesman, has had an impact.

The causes are speculation, the effects are not.


 

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Perhaps the reason we don't get more frequent, smaller updates, is because if we did, no one (other than pre-existing players) would care that "CoH patch 79658" was being released...

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As long as there's been a dev ready to supply quotage, every mini-event this game has done has gotten coverage online. I don't think the problem is that CoX can't get on Gamespy, MMORPG.com, or whatnot. It's that they run out of things that Cryptic people will talk about.



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I don't believe that this is a concern. I believe that Posi confirmed the development schedule as 3 mo for small updates, which would be a competetive schedule within the MMORPG industry.

I think that the current CoX team is unable to meet this update schedule, unlike the Legacy CoH team, due to either innefficiency, sloppy programming, understaffing, buracracy, or a combination such negative traits which are part of the currect team of devs. Perhaps some of the devs leaving, such as Lord Recluse, Statesman, has had an impact.

The causes are speculation, the effects are not.

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So Statesman isn't a part of the game anymore?


 

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They released them in bits onto Test, though. Not being able to release individual bits means that their development strategy is (perhaps necessarily) unmodular.

Heck, ideally they should be set up so that each individual system is its own piece which can be enabled or disabled independent of the rest, with little extra work outside of what's already a part of the standard publishing function they have now.

They managed to put in two types of wings without enabling all the other types, and the Cathedral of Pain has been disabled since CoV's release, so there is SOME ability to break things into smaller pieces. They just need to take that further, so that if something (Vet Rewards, for instance) isn't ready, they can say, "Sorry guys, Vet Rewards have some issues. Good news, though, we're still releasing everything else from I8 now, with the rewards to follow!" (Like they've done with the Fly poses.)

'course, that doesn't help them if there are major bugs in everything...

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While I think this is a good idea in theory; here's my huge concern with something like that.

People will still [censored].

Namely - you tell them "Sorry, everything about I8 will come out except for <insert feature>" and you'll spend the next 2 weeks-2 months dealing with bilespewing dev-hate filled rants on the boards because "X feature was the only reason I was keeping my subscription active!!"

Especially something major like Vet Rewards.

I'm not saying its not a better strategy overall - But it seems that people will be jerks regardless of how you swing it; and so I have to ask "Is it worth it to the devs to split things up into a more efficient system when the players will be just as gripey?"

Maybe thats just my own personality leaking through though - I know in their position I personally would do what's easiest for me unless I thought that doing something a particular way had a good chance of making a desirable impact. Failing that impact I'm just not going to muck with it.

Again, that's all personal opinion - I'd be fine seeing the updates switched to a smaller more modular approach; I just question how much impact it'd actually have.

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You're essentially saying, "Well, no matter what they do people will complain," but the majority of people only complain when they're getting antsy and bored, really.

Are you honestly saying that you don't think there'd be less complaining if updates were more regular and came out closer to their stated release dates?

Look at it this way, using just logic, not your feelings: Issues are made of multiple parts. People probably want more than one part of those issues, right?

So: what are the odds that if you're holding an issue back for three or four of those parts that every person that's annoyed now because they want something new won't get at least one part that they're looking forward to if you only hold back the broken bits, instead of the entire thing?

Emotionally, sure, people will [censored]. Logically? C'mon, unless the majority of the issue is broken, putting out the parts that are working has got to at least distract some of the people.


 

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Heck, ideally they should be set up so that each individual system is its own piece which can be enabled or disabled independent of the rest, with little extra work outside of what's already a part of the standard publishing function they have now.

They managed to put in two types of wings without enabling all the other types, and the Cathedral of Pain has been disabled since CoV's release, so there is SOME ability to break things into smaller pieces. They just need to take that further, so that if something (Vet Rewards, for instance) isn't ready, they can say, "Sorry guys, Vet Rewards have some issues. Good news, though, we're still releasing everything else from I8 now, with the rewards to follow!" (Like they've done with the Fly poses.)


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There are a lot of factors that would need to be considered. Not knowing how their internal structure works, we can only talk in hypotheticals, but for example:

It's easier to roll out in phases than it is to back out pieces. One reason for this is that once a code branch has been integrated, newer code gets written based on the integrated branch. While it's possible to back out a branch, it might entail a rollback of far more than you want, and there develops merge issues, and adds risk. And every time you change the base, you cause a new test cycle to be needed. It's a lot of cost and risk and without much gain from the company's perspective.

In a perfect environment, your architecture would be highly modular, very layered and client-server oriented. Modules would be small and primitive and have very tightly defined interface specs. Adding something new would mean adding a new service, or replacing and old one, not unlike adding a physics card or swapping out your GPU for a better one--all plug and play. It's possible to do development like this: many places do, though I've seen little evidence of it in the gaming industry. It takes a significant up-front investment on architecture and specification and rigorous adherence to standards, which developers tend to rebel against ("limits our creative freedom" is the common refrain), as well as a big leap of faith from the money people because very early on you might not see anything practical showing up; useful stuff to be sure, but stuff that doesn't wow investors. Even though, in the end, you wind up with a system that's easier to maintain, far less prone to bugs, and ultimately faster and cheaper to produce.

Naturally, of course, this is all sensible and logical so this approach isn't often taken and instead code is churned out like sausage from a meat grinder and systems just start evolving. The more evolution, especially poorly documented evolution, the you wind up with a system that's a nightmare to keep running or to extend, resulting in the obligatory rewrite (typically done in phases to ease the pain).

The big long and short of it is that the plug-and-play approach could give you the ability to turn things on and off easily. The more common meat grinder approach doesn't--once you make the sausage, you're stuck with sausage.

Vet rewards could be presumably disabled simply by disabling the trigger that grants the rewards, unless some of the changes they made for reward items have disturbed or broken existing systems, in which case just holding off on the rewards wouldn't work because the thing that's broken isn't the reward itself but the thing the reward is based upon. Ugly, complicated mess, which is why I'm content to wait for a bit yet.

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Exactly what I was saying. It'd be nice, but the truth is that most development is somewhere between the individual pieces and sausage.


 

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So Statesman isn't a part of the game anymore?

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Statesman is still a part of the company. He is overseeing several projects. He handed over the lead designer reigns to Positron during the second anniversary if I'm not mistaken.


 

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I think that the current CoX team is unable to meet this update schedule, unlike the Legacy CoH team, due to either innefficiency, sloppy programming, understaffing, buracracy, or a combination such negative traits which are part of the currect team of devs. Perhaps some of the devs leaving, such as Lord Recluse, Statesman, has had an impact.

The causes are speculation, the effects are not.

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I think it's chipmunks. I'm completely serious. Once they get into the office building and start nesting, they make a heck of a mess of things and cause all kinds of problems up tpo and including project delays.

Do I sound like I'm out of my mind? Yeah, that's what happens when you start attributing random causes to things you believe you're seeing--causes that have no basis in reality and which are nothing more than fantasy.

The only difference is some knucklehead is going to read the quoted and start spreading this "truth" as though it was truth instead of foundless speculation.

All we know is that I8 has not yet been released. Nothing more. We don't know why (and certainly not the whole story).


 

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I think that the current CoX team is unable to meet this update schedule, unlike the Legacy CoH team, due to either innefficiency, sloppy programming, understaffing, buracracy, or a combination such negative traits which are part of the currect team of devs. Perhaps some of the devs leaving, such as Lord Recluse, Statesman, has had an impact.

The causes are speculation, the effects are not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's chipmunks. I'm completely serious. Once they get into the office building and start nesting, they make a heck of a mess of things and cause all kinds of problems up tpo and including project delays.

Do I sound like I'm out of my mind? Yeah, that's what happens when you start attributing random causes to things you believe you're seeing--causes that have no basis in reality and which are nothing more than fantasy.

The only difference is some knucklehead is going to read the quoted and start spreading this "truth" as though it was truth instead of foundless speculation.

All we know is that I8 has not yet been released. Nothing more. We don't know why (and certainly not the whole story).

[/ QUOTE ]

Err...quote for truth?


Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP

Remember kids, crack is whack!

Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it

 

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Issues are big but don't forget the between-issues work. Last year's Valentines & Winter events were pretty big things and didn't have any issue associated with them. All those 'little' changes between issues seem to be coming down at the same rate, as near as I can tell. So why would the big ticket stuff be slowing down while the relatively small stuff keeps going?


 

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They released them in bits onto Test, though. Not being able to release individual bits means that their development strategy is (perhaps necessarily) unmodular.

Heck, ideally they should be set up so that each individual system is its own piece which can be enabled or disabled independent of the rest, with little extra work outside of what's already a part of the standard publishing function they have now.

They managed to put in two types of wings without enabling all the other types, and the Cathedral of Pain has been disabled since CoV's release, so there is SOME ability to break things into smaller pieces. They just need to take that further, so that if something (Vet Rewards, for instance) isn't ready, they can say, "Sorry guys, Vet Rewards have some issues. Good news, though, we're still releasing everything else from I8 now, with the rewards to follow!" (Like they've done with the Fly poses.)

'course, that doesn't help them if there are major bugs in everything...

[/ QUOTE ]

While I think this is a good idea in theory; here's my huge concern with something like that.

People will still [censored].

Namely - you tell them "Sorry, everything about I8 will come out except for <insert feature>" and you'll spend the next 2 weeks-2 months dealing with bilespewing dev-hate filled rants on the boards because "X feature was the only reason I was keeping my subscription active!!"

Especially something major like Vet Rewards.

I'm not saying its not a better strategy overall - But it seems that people will be jerks regardless of how you swing it; and so I have to ask "Is it worth it to the devs to split things up into a more efficient system when the players will be just as gripey?"

Maybe thats just my own personality leaking through though - I know in their position I personally would do what's easiest for me unless I thought that doing something a particular way had a good chance of making a desirable impact. Failing that impact I'm just not going to muck with it.

Again, that's all personal opinion - I'd be fine seeing the updates switched to a smaller more modular approach; I just question how much impact it'd actually have.

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You're essentially saying, "Well, no matter what they do people will complain," but the majority of people only complain when they're getting antsy and bored, really.

Are you honestly saying that you don't think there'd be less complaining if updates were more regular and came out closer to their stated release dates?

Look at it this way, using just logic, not your feelings: Issues are made of multiple parts. People probably want more than one part of those issues, right?

So: what are the odds that if you're holding an issue back for three or four of those parts that every person that's annoyed now because they want something new won't get at least one part that they're looking forward to if you only hold back the broken bits, instead of the entire thing?

Emotionally, sure, people will [censored]. Logically? C'mon, unless the majority of the issue is broken, putting out the parts that are working has got to at least distract some of the people.

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Maybe a few Foo... but I don't exactly have a giant helping of faith left in these forums. >.< There are *plenty* of good people - but the griping, [censored] and moaning just gets on my nerves like you wouldn't BELIEVE.

And I'm inclined to believe that anyone who's distracted by the new shinies, will just get replaced by someone else who was fine with the status quo and is now pissed.

Don't get me wrong - for me, personally, a faster update schedule with smaller updates would be fine really; they do it in DDO and its been moving like clockwork. Really a good system.

Predictably - those boards are chaos, despite getting an update roughly every month and a half. (number is approximate; roughly every month-two months)

I want to see the change made - I just don't expect it would happen for the reasons I've stated already <x_x> consider me pessimistic on the issue.


A Warrior's Friend: ID 335212 - Help Infernal save Valkyrie from Battle Maiden.
Above Mars Part 1: The Wellington: ID 159769 - Save Mars by destroying a monstrous battleship from the inside!
>.> My DA page, where I attempt to art.