Disappointment in the Update Schedule
By
8_Ball,
Posted on: 2006-11-21 24:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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What I meant was would you get the contact for Faultline from one of your former contacts if you went to lvl 15 before I8 came out, or would you simply "miss out"?
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You just go to the contact and talk to them yourself. I don't think an old contact will give it to you, but you will get the contact if you go talk to him on your own.
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Correct <@_@>
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Of course it is! I am me, after all.
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What I meant was would you get the contact for Faultline from one of your former contacts if you went to lvl 15 before I8 came out, or would you simply "miss out"?
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You just go to the contact and talk to them yourself. I don't think an old contact will give it to you, but you will get the contact if you go talk to him on your own.
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Correct <@_@>
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Of course it is! I am me, after all.
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Just like the Croatoa guy.
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
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What I meant was would you get the contact for Faultline from one of your former contacts if you went to lvl 15 before I8 came out, or would you simply "miss out"?
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You just go to the contact and talk to them yourself. I don't think an old contact will give it to you, but you will get the contact if you go talk to him on your own.
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Correct <@_@>
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Of course it is! I am me, after all.
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O.o
That just adds to the 'ZOMGBBQLOLOLOLOLOLOL' factor.
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Why is it that people come on these boards with legitimate complaints, and then a gaggle of posters call "whiner!".
Hey, stop using the boards for one of thier chief purposes!
I don't know if these guys realized this, but the devs have actually actioned issues which have been vetted on these boards. The halloween event is a recent example. Also of note is that the RSF is being lowered to level 53, and villains are going to get access to the hami raid.
Not all complaints are worthwhile, but at least make that case instead of the ad hominem attack of "Whiner!"
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Let me explain the difference between whining, and constructive criticism. Because honestly, you have to understand there's a world of difference between the two, and while the former is crap - the second is immensely useful. (For example, note the issues you've mentioned: How many of those had extremely good, well thought out posts? I can remember 2 seperate "RSF Is Borked" threads that were quite well informed for instance.)
Whining is just that - Someone who goes off on a rant about nothing, claiming people "owe" him something that they do not, acting as though they are the only priority the devs should have. That there is no other issue worth working on but their issue. That the devs *never* do anything right. Etc etc...
Anytime someone is making an arguement that either uses totally flawed logic, a lack of common sense, or an excuse for dev bashing; or arguing about something that we know *will not change* (I5/ED) long past the point of usefuli debate.
That is whining. Whining is annoying and unhelpful. Whining can be characterized by "The devs never do anything right" "The devs hate fun" "The devs are incompetent" etc...
Basically - any posts specifically aimed at people rather than issues.
Constructive criticism is something I value highly on the otherhand...
Constructive criticism consists of well thought out posts laying out the problem, the solutions available in your mind, the reasons you suggest these solutions, and why people may agree with you. You do *not* speculate on how stupid the developers are or how moronic a given system is - instead you present ideas on how to fix it, and what exactly is wrong with it. No personal attacks, no stupidity, no horrendously flawed logic.
Most importantly: You are willing to let others have their say in the matter; because the truth is *you may not always agree with people - and they have as much right to say what they want as you do*. The same is true of the devs - no matter how AMAZING your idea is - no matter how incredible game-improving it may be- the devs may not see it that way. Or it may be too hard. So you must also accept that regardless of what you want to happen - it only happens if the devs want it to.
That doesn't mean "shut up, you don't matter" that means "make your case, explain it as well as you can - and don't be pissy if you don't get what you want."
That's the difference
Whining is not worth the time it takes to read - constructive criticism can influence the game immensely and in the right ways. EB change for AVs for instance, auto-Exemping, RSF changes, various AT buffs (Claws, Defense sets, *maybe* blaster secondaries - wait and see on that one)
Etc...
A Warrior's Friend: ID 335212 - Help Infernal save Valkyrie from Battle Maiden.
Above Mars Part 1: The Wellington: ID 159769 - Save Mars by destroying a monstrous battleship from the inside!
>.> My DA page, where I attempt to art.
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What I meant was would you get the contact for Faultline from one of your former contacts if you went to lvl 15 before I8 came out, or would you simply "miss out"?
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You just go to the contact and talk to them yourself. I don't think an old contact will give it to you, but you will get the contact if you go talk to him on your own.
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Correct <@_@>
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Of course it is! I am me, after all.
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O.o
That just adds to the 'ZOMGBBQLOLOLOLOLOLOL' factor.
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Mmm... bbq <O_O>
A Warrior's Friend: ID 335212 - Help Infernal save Valkyrie from Battle Maiden.
Above Mars Part 1: The Wellington: ID 159769 - Save Mars by destroying a monstrous battleship from the inside!
>.> My DA page, where I attempt to art.
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Whining is not worth the time it takes to read - constructive criticism can influence the game immensely and in the right ways. EB change for AVs for instance, auto-Exemping, RSF changes, various AT buffs (Claws, Defense sets, *maybe* blaster secondaries - wait and see on that one)
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Of course, there have been numerous posts relating to all of these valid critisims in which the authors were called whiners or something similar, regardless of how well they worded their posts. There is a trend on these boards to call anyone who says anything negative about the game and/or the devs a whiner. It's like some sort of strange forum defense mechanism.
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Let me explain the difference between whining, and constructive criticism. Because honestly, you have to understand there's a world of difference between the two, and while the former is crap - the second is immensely useful. (For example, note the issues you've mentioned: How many of those had extremely good, well thought out posts? I can remember 2 seperate "RSF Is Borked" threads that were quite well informed for instance.)
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How many time has a well thought out post been followed up with:
"OMG! That suxxorz! U dont know what ur talking about!"
Nothing more. No counterpoint. No feedback. Just a knock down of a well crafted, maybe flawed but well considered, idea. Or, a follow up like: "Well I want this and if they devs don't do what I'm asking, this whole game will be absolutely worthless."
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The boards aren't here to make the same complaints over and over and over again, nor are they here for people to use to try and bash the devs.
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Nothing wrong with questioning Cryptic/NCsoft on things, but we need to stick to facts and not make it a personal thing. People don't like the update schedule? Fine. Point out that you don't like it. Maker the point as strenuously as you'd like. Then move on. Don't try and attribute fanciful causes as to why this is happening, and blame people for it. It's not about explanations, or blame; Those are internal matters. All you care about is results.
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Whining is not worth the time it takes to read - constructive criticism can influence the game immensely and in the right ways. EB change for AVs for instance, auto-Exemping, RSF changes, various AT buffs (Claws, Defense sets, *maybe* blaster secondaries - wait and see on that one)
Etc...
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Dominator chnages - especially the rate they build domination on a team. They all the way there yet ? maybe not, but more vaild constructive concerns raised after extensive playign with the changes will be welcoem.
Doms SUCK, LOL Doms etc isnt going to change anything.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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What I meant was would you get the contact for Faultline from one of your former contacts if you went to lvl 15 before I8 came out, or would you simply "miss out"?
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You just go to the contact and talk to them yourself. I don't think an old contact will give it to you, but you will get the contact if you go talk to him on your own.
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Correct <@_@>
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Of course it is! I am me, after all.
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Just like the Croatoa guy.
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The mayor of Croatoa? I got him from a contact. That's why I asked, I thought it'd be similar to Croatoa.
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Whining is not worth the time it takes to read - constructive criticism can influence the game immensely and in the right ways. EB change for AVs for instance, auto-Exemping, RSF changes, various AT buffs (Claws, Defense sets, *maybe* blaster secondaries - wait and see on that one)
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Of course, there have been numerous posts relating to all of these valid critisims in which the authors were called whiners or something similar, regardless of how well they worded their posts. There is a trend on these boards to call anyone who says anything negative about the game and/or the devs a whiner. It's like some sort of strange forum defense mechanism.
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Yeah I understand - and I don't particularly like that attitude either mind you. However, its one thing to complain about the game (in a logical manner) - and quite another to aim at the devs. Calling the devs names/calling them out - not right, not good.
What does calling Statesman or Positron a loser accomplish? Except to make them skip what very well may be an otherwise good post. I see it too often - someone who ends up making an issue personal when it shouldn't be.
Saying something negative about the game - done right, is fine. Saying something negative about the devs isn't right, because you've got no reason to ever bring it up outside of pure personal animosity, something that doesn't help.
I think that's why people do lambast even legitimate complaints very quickly - because there is *so* much just flat out whining "OMG ED SUX" "POSITRON IS STUPID" etc... etc...
Heck, even well-made posts like Arcanaville's are often tinged with "If they devs had any idea how to do math..." etc...
That kind of personal crap isn't good, it doesn't help, and again, at best it just prevents them from reading an otherwise informative post.
Say the same thing with less vitriol on the other hand, and you'll get noticed.
Also - as I may have said; people won't always agree with you. That includes "even if you really are correct." So you've got to accept that if you make a comment - Good or Bad - you'll find at least one person disliking it; and have to be willing to accept it.
(Example: My Mecha EAT in my sig - I had pages and pages of people saying "This is a great idea!" and 5 or 6 people specifically poking holes in it. Sometimes it was helpful, sometimes not - but to put an idea out, no matter how popular, you've got to be willing to accept someone is going to disagree with it.)
Also, this is a license to disagree with other people, regardless of their ideas; including developers. What it is also however, is a statement "Keep it focused on the issues - quit with the personal attacks."
I've been guilty of it myself more than once, but one of the things that REALLY makes it hard on these forums is people getting personal. "Can you read?!" "Nice reading comprehension" "Ur spellin sux!" go in the same category as "FANBOI!" and "You've got brown on your nose."
Etc... None of that is necessary to debate a given issue.
Of course its different when you're just having a thread for fun - but when it comes to game issues - stick to the issues.
That's really all I'm asking. Don't speculate on what the devs were smoking when they put in Feature Y. Don't blame "Stupid anime people" for costume parts you don't like. Don't blame PVPers for 'ruining your game'. Do explain why you don't like Feature Y. Do give your opinion of why a given costume piece doesn't 'fit' in your mind. You may be disagreed with, but at you are indeed allowed your say (as are they). Do explain why you dislike PVP - don't generalize the players that enjoy it as subhuman in the process however.
Really it goes for all arguements - but especially the way these forums get at times.
A Warrior's Friend: ID 335212 - Help Infernal save Valkyrie from Battle Maiden.
Above Mars Part 1: The Wellington: ID 159769 - Save Mars by destroying a monstrous battleship from the inside!
>.> My DA page, where I attempt to art.
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Events take some time, I'm sure, but they're important because they can create peaks of interest, and they're a good investment because most of them just use already-created resources with a little bit of mission-coding. It also lets them try out new tech, like the co-op teaming, in a non-permanent fashion.
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I agree to some extent. Like I said, I absolutely love the holiday events. I'm just trying to bring up an idea that might get the Issues out at a more reasonable time. If something like that has to be sacrificed to get Issues out faster, it's a tough choice, but one I wouldn't be too upset with. I'm just trying to figure out what's changed so much in the past year that has made it so Issues are taking a couple months longer to come out. That's one of the things that it could possibly be.
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The fact that they take away from Issues can be evidenced by Positron previously stating that they choose not to add any zone events in I7 because they chose to focus on beefing up these events instead.
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Apples and orangutans. The issue at hand involved events like the winter event, which are seasonal and temporary. The justification for your counter argument uses zone events like SC firebombings and Lusca, which are permanent game additions (i.e, content).
What you're saying, in essence, is that since Posi stated that they didn't add permanent event content, it proves that temporary events take time from the mainline development. One does not follow the other.
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No, that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying exactly what I typed. Positron said he choose to forego adding zone events because he was having people work on the holiday events instead.
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Boomtown: Can you tell us whether Issue 8 will be marked by zone events (driving the story of CoH forward) like its been hinted at previously?
Positron: Actually the time for events for Issue 8 was spent on improving the Halloween event from two years ago, and improving last years Winter event as well, making sure it was ready for the Holiday season.
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That's the thing I'm taking issue with. Like I said, it might not be the case at all. Maybe it's entirely different things that have made Issues come out at such a glacial speed recently, it's probably more than one thing, something I don't doubt. But it certainly looks like these play a part from statements like that.
All in all, I'm just hoping something can be changed to get things back to the way they used to be. Maybe that's a fools dream, but it's one worth having, I'd say.
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Whining is not worth the time it takes to read - constructive criticism can influence the game immensely and in the right ways. EB change for AVs for instance, auto-Exemping, RSF changes, various AT buffs (Claws, Defense sets, *maybe* blaster secondaries - wait and see on that one)
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course, there have been numerous posts relating to all of these valid critisims in which the authors were called whiners or something similar, regardless of how well they worded their posts. There is a trend on these boards to call anyone who says anything negative about the game and/or the devs a whiner. It's like some sort of strange forum defense mechanism.
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Yeah I understand - and I don't particularly like that attitude either mind you. However, its one thing to complain about the game (in a logical manner) - and quite another to aim at the devs. Calling the devs names/calling them out - not right, not good.
What does calling Statesman or Positron a loser accomplish? Except to make them skip what very well may be an otherwise good post. I see it too often - someone who ends up making an issue personal when it shouldn't be.
Saying something negative about the game - done right, is fine. Saying something negative about the devs isn't right, because you've got no reason to ever bring it up outside of pure personal animosity, something that doesn't help.
I think that's why people do lambast even legitimate complaints very quickly - because there is *so* much just flat out whining "OMG ED SUX" "POSITRON IS STUPID" etc... etc...
Heck, even well-made posts like Arcanaville's are often tinged with "If they devs had any idea how to do math..." etc...
That kind of personal crap isn't good, it doesn't help, and again, at best it just prevents them from reading an otherwise informative post.
Say the same thing with less vitriol on the other hand, and you'll get noticed.
Also - as I may have said; people won't always agree with you. That includes "even if you really are correct." So you've got to accept that if you make a comment - Good or Bad - you'll find at least one person disliking it; and have to be willing to accept it.
(Example: My Mecha EAT in my sig - I had pages and pages of people saying "This is a great idea!" and 5 or 6 people specifically poking holes in it. Sometimes it was helpful, sometimes not - but to put an idea out, no matter how popular, you've got to be willing to accept someone is going to disagree with it.)
Also, this is a license to disagree with other people, regardless of their ideas; including developers. What it is also however, is a statement "Keep it focused on the issues - quit with the personal attacks."
I've been guilty of it myself more than once, but one of the things that REALLY makes it hard on these forums is people getting personal. "Can you read?!" "Nice reading comprehension" "Ur spellin sux!" go in the same category as "FANBOI!" and "You've got brown on your nose."
Etc... None of that is necessary to debate a given issue.
Of course its different when you're just having a thread for fun - but when it comes to game issues - stick to the issues.
That's really all I'm asking. Don't speculate on what the devs were smoking when they put in Feature Y. Don't blame "Stupid anime people" for costume parts you don't like. Don't blame PVPers for 'ruining your game'. Do explain why you don't like Feature Y. Do give your opinion of why a given costume piece doesn't 'fit' in your mind. You may be disagreed with, but at you are indeed allowed your say (as are they). Do explain why you dislike PVP - don't generalize the players that enjoy it as subhuman in the process however.
Really it goes for all arguements - but especially the way these forums get at times.
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Sometimes there's nothing more personal than the truth. 
It's massively different to say "This mechanic is horribly broken" and "The devs are stupid for making this horribly broken mechanic".
Sure, you could claim the first implies the second - but you could also chock the first up to the devs making a mistake (because ya know... they're human and all; and no amount of dev-side testing can get all the possible kinks we players can cause out of the system either).
So while the truth may hit close to home, its different than just being insulted to your face - which alot of people do intentionally when its not necessary <x.x>;
Sorry, but its bugged me for a long long time and if people ever want respect instead of being called "whiners" - they have to act respectable and not whine in the first place.
I know it can be annoying for someone to be called a 'whiner' - but I'll be damned if it isn't just as annoying to be called a 'fanboi' just because you happen to agree with a given policy.
The labeling just has to go <x.x> it helps nothing!
I'll shuddup for awhile now; I'm tired!
A Warrior's Friend: ID 335212 - Help Infernal save Valkyrie from Battle Maiden.
Above Mars Part 1: The Wellington: ID 159769 - Save Mars by destroying a monstrous battleship from the inside!
>.> My DA page, where I attempt to art.
Whining is a point of view . It was cool that you took the time to write all that , but it was irrelevant .
Agree to disagree , telling people they are whining in a forum where your encourage by the Developers to give your opinion is flaming , there isn't any reason for it.
EDIT: I'm only talking about *Whining* in general , there isn't any reason people attacking other people with that term , when all they had to do was say " Sorry I disagree , this is why"
Were there people telling the devs suck in this particular thread? I've read most of it, before and after it was snipped, and didn't really read that. I thought the thread was snipped more for posters attacking each other than the company. I thought the OP was more than courteous and thoughtful in posting his concerns. Is that where the problems arise? Any complaints are viewed as attacking the company/devs? Again, I didn't really see that in this thread.
Of course I wish that updates came out quicker. I would give my left one for power customization. I dont ever see it coming out though.
That said I have noticed that updates are starting to slack off.
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Were there people telling the devs suck in this particular thread?
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There was a bit and it was certainly starting to head down that road.
More frequent updates have their advantages, both in appeasing the customer base and even in development. Rapid prototype-rapid deploy has a lot of benefits not the least of which is better quality because you limit you changes and that makes devlopment and testing more efficient.
The side effect is that you end up with an evolutionalry system, instead of a revolutionary one. I really don't think the players will like that, to be honest. If you get new costume pieces now and again, a few new missions here and there, some art changes one month, maybe a new zone which open up slowly, people will not feel like they're getting anything. Looking at the changes over the course of a year you'd see a lot of changes and improvements, but they'd happen so gradually you'd not really feel like you were getting anything at all. The big bang deliveries make the impact, not the gradual imcremental impacts.
When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers. be careful what you pray for.
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Whining is a point of view . It was cool that you took the time to write all that , but it was irrelevant .
Agree to disagree , telling people they are whining in a forum where your encourage by the Developers to give your opinion is flaming , there isn't any reason for it.
EDIT: I'm only talking about *Whining* in general , there isn't any reason people attacking other people with that term , when all they had to do was say " Sorry I disagree , this is why"
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The post wasn't irrelevant anymore then yours is, there is a difference between constructively complaining about something that needs fixing/changed and just flat out complaining (not saying this thread is either or, just in general).
And before you go off saying that people shouldn't attack others with such terms, perhaps you should not tell someone their post is irrelevant because it's essentially the type of attack.
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
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Whining is a point of view . It was cool that you took the time to write all that , but it was irrelevant .
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The post wasn't irrelevant anymore then yours is, there is a difference between constructively complaining about something that needs fixing/changed and just flat out complaining (not saying this thread is either or, just in general).
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At the risk of riding this runaway thread further into the bit bucket:
This is a prime example of "It's not what you say but how you say it," syndrome. It matters not if the first quote was making a valid point or not: the pooly chosen phrase, "it was irrelevant," closed any doors to reaching an understanding. It made the post personal.
When posts focus on the game, instead of on the players or devlopers, things really go much smoother. Always read twice before pushing that [Continue] button.
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It's massively different to say "This mechanic is horribly broken" and "The devs are stupid for making this horribly broken mechanic".
Sure, you could claim the first implies the second - but you could also chock the first up to the devs making a mistake (because ya know... they're human and all; and no amount of dev-side testing can get all the possible kinks we players can cause out of the system either).
So while the truth may hit close to home, its different than just being insulted to your face - which alot of people do intentionally when its not necessary <x.x>;
Sorry, but its bugged me for a long long time and if people ever want respect instead of being called "whiners" - they have to act respectable and not whine in the first place.
I know it can be annoying for someone to be called a 'whiner' - but I'll be damned if it isn't just as annoying to be called a 'fanboi' just because you happen to agree with a given policy.
The labeling just has to go <x.x> it helps nothing!
I'll shuddup for awhile now; I'm tired!
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How about, "It seems like the Devs aren't very good at math due to X and Y mistakes they've made?"
I'm not saying it's polite, but pointing out where the Devs are lacking can certainly be true. After all, they're only people, and therefore imperfect.
Heck, if I were on a Dev team and found we kept making errors in judgement or coming up with different answers than everyone else, I'd take serious stock of the situation and maybe start thinking about bringing someone in to bolster those areas where we keep coming up short.
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Whining is a point of view . It was cool that you took the time to write all that , but it was irrelevant .
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The post wasn't irrelevant anymore then yours is, there is a difference between constructively complaining about something that needs fixing/changed and just flat out complaining (not saying this thread is either or, just in general).
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At the risk of riding this runaway thread further into the bit bucket:
This is a prime example of "It's not what you say but how you say it," syndrome. It matters not if the first quote was making a valid point or not: the pooly chosen phrase, "it was irrelevant," closed any doors to reaching an understanding. It made the post personal.
When posts focus on the game, instead of on the players or devlopers, things really go much smoother. Always read twice before pushing that [Continue] button.
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Ya, pretty much what I was getting at, in less words, much less words
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
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Were there people telling the devs suck in this particular thread?
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There was a bit and it was certainly starting to head down that road.
More frequent updates have their advantages, both in appeasing the customer base and even in development. Rapid prototype-rapid deploy has a lot of benefits not the least of which is better quality because you limit you changes and that makes devlopment and testing more efficient.
The side effect is that you end up with an evolutionalry system, instead of a revolutionary one. I really don't think the players will like that, to be honest. If you get new costume pieces now and again, a few new missions here and there, some art changes one month, maybe a new zone which open up slowly, people will not feel like they're getting anything. Looking at the changes over the course of a year you'd see a lot of changes and improvements, but they'd happen so gradually you'd not really feel like you were getting anything at all. The big bang deliveries make the impact, not the gradual imcremental impacts.
When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers. be careful what you pray for.
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You're arguing extremes here. Why is the choice between "six-month or more cycles" vs. "one-month, with a few missions, costumes, and bit-by-bit zones"? Has anyone even been suggesting that?
I know people mentioned another game that did things monthly, but they also mentioned it as a negative for the same reasons you give, so I doubt it was a suggestion.
People seem to be saying 3 or 4 times a year, which is 3 or 4 months apart, not 1, which leaves room for a heck of a lot more than a few costume bits and a mission or two.
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How about, "It seems like the Devs aren't very good at math due to X and Y mistakes they've made?"
I'm not saying it's polite, but pointing out where the Devs are lacking can certainly be true. After all, they're only people, and therefore imperfect.
Heck, if I were on a Dev team and found we kept making errors in judgement or coming up with different answers than everyone else, I'd take serious stock of the situation and maybe start thinking about bringing someone in to bolster those areas where we keep coming up short.
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You don't have to be overly polite to give constructive criticism. And criticism doesn't require insults.
I've been accused of the dev-fan-love thing. But my biggest complaint about that, just treat like human beings, not dogs. There's been a lot of really valid points that got lost in a thread because everything devolves. Remember the 'Lying liers and the lies they tell' crap? That was nuts. Just nuts. But I believe that if that whole thing had been phrased differently, there wouldn't have been the bit Statesman cutting the other devs brake lines to diversify the ride home or replacing his muffler with an Ethiopian baby.
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Whining is a point of view . It was cool that you took the time to write all that , but it was irrelevant .
Agree to disagree , telling people they are whining in a forum where your encourage by the Developers to give your opinion is flaming , there isn't any reason for it.
EDIT: I'm only talking about *Whining* in general , there isn't any reason people attacking other people with that term , when all they had to do was say " Sorry I disagree , this is why"
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The post wasn't irrelevant anymore then yours is, there is a difference between constructively complaining about something that needs fixing/changed and just flat out complaining (not saying this thread is either or, just in general).
And before you go off saying that people shouldn't attack others with such terms, perhaps you should not tell someone their post is irrelevant because it's essentially the type of attack.
[/ QUOTE ]HexGirl , did you read what I said? I was only talking about *Whining* I wasn't putting her post down or anything (I liked her post , maybe I worded my post wrong ) .
I meant giving excuses why some people do it was irrelevant , because we shouldn't be calling other posters *whiners* in the first place.
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What I meant was would you get the contact for Faultline from one of your former contacts if you went to lvl 15 before I8 came out, or would you simply "miss out"?
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You just go to the contact and talk to them yourself. I don't think an old contact will give it to you, but you will get the contact if you go talk to him on your own.
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Correct <@_@>
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