Disappointment in the Update Schedule
By
8_Ball,
Posted on: 2006-11-21 24:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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How about, "It seems like the Devs aren't very good at math due to X and Y mistakes they've made?"
I'm not saying it's polite, but pointing out where the Devs are lacking can certainly be true. After all, they're only people, and therefore imperfect.
Heck, if I were on a Dev team and found we kept making errors in judgement or coming up with different answers than everyone else, I'd take serious stock of the situation and maybe start thinking about bringing someone in to bolster those areas where we keep coming up short.
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You don't have to be overly polite to give constructive criticism. And criticism doesn't require insults.
I've been accused of the dev-fan-love thing. But my biggest complaint about that, just treat like human beings, not dogs. There's been a lot of really valid points that got lost in a thread because everything devolves. Remember the 'Lying liers and the lies they tell' crap? That was nuts. Just nuts. But I believe that if that whole thing had been phrased differently, there wouldn't have been the bit Statesman cutting the other devs brake lines to diversify the ride home or replacing his muffler with an Ethiopian baby.
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I don't disagree, but all this does is give certain posters (and you likely know which ones) another way to try and publicly discount the possibly rational, if poorly-self-moderated, complaints of others. So I agree to a point, but then caution folks that there's often a reason people get heated about things, and it's because they care, which is really testament to the game.
Also, the Devs don't need our protection. They are adults. They're perfectly capable of ignoring foolish rants themselves without having us conflagrate things and forcing the mods to lock threads which might otherwise have yielded insight and relevance.
I say it all time in these threads: complaints are GOOD. Complaints are whip that keeps the ox pulling the plow. Complaints are what tell a business how to improve. Complaints are opportunities for a business to improve consumer relations.
The greatest threat to the game isn't people complaining; far from it, in fact. The greatest threat is from people whose devotion to the game is so complete that they can barely see any flaws to improve upon, and can't countenance words daring to say otherwise.
...uh, sorry about the soapbox. 
Also: The brakeline and baby thing were satirical. Satire, parody and humour are often the best ways to find out what a group is thinking, and shouldn't be discounted simply for being colourful.
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In other words... complaints are free feedback updates from the customers.
Likewise the idea that "no news is good news" is a very bad idea. No news means no feedback, good or bad. That means people don't care enough to say something. That's a bad place to be.
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
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Constructive criticism consists of well thought out posts laying out the problem, the solutions available in your mind, the reasons you suggest these solutions, and why people may agree with you. You do *not* speculate on how stupid the developers are or how moronic a given system is - instead you present ideas on how to fix it, and what exactly is wrong with it. No personal attacks, no stupidity, no horrendously flawed logic.
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While there's plenty of inflammatory commentary in this forum, there's plenty of reasoned critiques as well. Daikon's point was that the good gets tarred with the less than good frequently, perhaps reflexively, and often with scathing rebukes of things that were never said by the reply target. Taser's replies in hot topic threads are good example.
Yes, there are plenty of less than useful threads out there, but I think some people are just building up resentment from bad apples and take it out on good apples. Those people have little patience for the occasional "ZOMG!" post that pops up in an otherwise reasonable thread and give into the temptation to dump on a thread just because a couple of numnuts insert "ZOMG!" into an otherwise interesting discussion. I've found that a good chunk of "ZOMG!" posts are made by the same people, and using the forum software to 'Ignore' them out of a thread cuts down on a lot of shoulder-chippage, which in turn cuts down on the "whining about whiners".
Your mileage may vary. 
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Why is it that people come on these boards with legitimate complaints, and then a gaggle of posters call "whiner!".
Hey, stop using the boards for one of thier chief purposes!
I don't know if these guys realized this, but the devs have actually actioned issues which have been vetted on these boards. The halloween event is a recent example. Also of note is that the RSF is being lowered to level 53, and villains are going to get access to the hami raid.
Not all complaints are worthwhile, but at least make that case instead of the ad hominem attack of "Whiner!"
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People already did make the case. The boards aren't here to make the same complaints over and over and over again, nor are they here for people to use to try and bash the devs.
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Well, you've made your point that you feel this thread's topic has been driven into the ground several times. The peak of your moral high ground is so subtle as to be nigh imperceptible to the outside observer.
I'm not telling you to stop posting as you please, but there seems to be a paradox at work here. Just sayin'.
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No paradox, just beating one repeative post with another.
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Well, no moral high ground for you, either, just preaching to the choir for some strange reason. I don't understand why this polite, reasonable thread threatens you so much. Right now, what we have going is a long unrelated digression about what's 'worthy' of posting. If you're so angsty about elevating the discussion, why don't you go to an actual "ZOMG!" thread and educate some actual "ZOMG!" posters? It would seem to be a more constructive choice, but maybe I'm missing something here. 
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I could've sworn that this was an engaging and fairly constructive discussion about CoX's content update scheduling and composition before the holiday weekend. 
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Why is it that people come on these boards with legitimate complaints, and then a gaggle of posters call "whiner!".
Hey, stop using the boards for one of thier chief purposes!
I don't know if these guys realized this, but the devs have actually actioned issues which have been vetted on these boards. The halloween event is a recent example. Also of note is that the RSF is being lowered to level 53, and villains are going to get access to the hami raid.
Not all complaints are worthwhile, but at least make that case instead of the ad hominem attack of "Whiner!"
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People already did make the case. The boards aren't here to make the same complaints over and over and over again, nor are they here for people to use to try and bash the devs.
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Well, you've made your point that you feel this thread's topic has been driven into the ground several times. The peak of your moral high ground is so subtle as to be nigh imperceptible to the outside observer.
I'm not telling you to stop posting as you please, but there seems to be a paradox at work here. Just sayin'.
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No paradox, just beating one repeative post with another.
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Well, no moral high ground for you, either, just preaching to the choir for some strange reason. I don't understand why this polite, reasonable thread threatens you so much. Right now, what we have going is a long unrelated digression about what's 'worthy' of posting. If you're so angsty about elevating the discussion, why don't you go to an actual "ZOMG!" thread and educate some actual "ZOMG!" posters? It would seem to be a more constructive choice, but maybe I'm missing something here.
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I could've sworn that this was an engaging and fairly constructive discussion about CoX's content update scheduling and composition before the holiday weekend.
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You misread my tone. That or you just like to argue with people over nothing. It really doesn't matter either way. I wasn't fighting with anyone, I was just stating my opinion on the matter/thread/issue blah blah blah. If you don't like me saying "Hey, hit that dead horse again" then fine, but I am definitely not angry or threatened by people discussing anything. I do however find more in a few of these posts then a "polite reasonable discussion". Much like you are finding more in my posts then there really is I suppose.
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
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Likewise the idea that "no news is good news" is a very bad idea. No news means no feedback, good or bad. That means people don't care enough to say something. That's a bad place to be.
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...or it means they're too involved in what they're doing to say anything. I know my own habits in this regard, at least: If I go to a restaurant and the experience stinks, I'll gripe quite a lot. If everything's reasonable... I'll eat, pay, thank the waitress, and leave. If everything was fantastic... I'll eat, pay, thank the waitress, tip more than normal, and leave.
I've been making an effort to drag people's managers over to let them know that their suboridnate has done a heck of a job and deserves a raise, or write complimentary emails... but it requires far more deliberate thought than to take the time to gripe.
In short, people that are happy tend to keep doing whatever's making them happy; people that aren't happy complain.
EDIT: Also, would someone PM me a few links to what they consider to be reasonable complaints or criticisms with overblown flaming in response? I'd appreciate it.
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I was just stating my I was just stating my opinion on the matter/thread/issue blah blah blah.
[/ QUOTE ] Can i please have a link to your "opinion " All I see is someone trying to get the last word with a smart reply.
If you want us to take you seriously then please post right.
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I wasn't fighting with anyone, I was just stating my opinion on the matter/thread/issue blah blah blah. If you don't like me saying "Hey, hit that dead horse again" then fine, but I am definitely not angry or threatened by people discussing anything.
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The title of the thread is "Disappointment in the Update Schedule", not "Disappointment in the Quality of Constructive Criticism" - in case you missed that. Since there hasn't been much hissy-fittage at all in this thread, I'm not sure why this digression you've perpetuated over the weekend became the point of the thread.
Smells a little threadjack-y. Smells a little axe-grindy. Maybe something's being lost in translation. Thanks for keeping this thread on the front page, though. There was some good constructive dialogue and feedback for the actual topic of the thread going on before the weekend, and your bumps have a good chance to get some fresh eyes today for the original topic that was initiated by the first posting.
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I was just stating my I was just stating my opinion on the matter/thread/issue blah blah blah.
[/ QUOTE ] Can i please have a link to your "opinion " All I see is someone trying to get the last word with a smart reply.
If you want us to take you seriously then please post right.
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Last word? No. If I was trying to do that, I would reply to every post saying "Stop whining" or the like *shrug*
And ick.. I see typos in my post. *sighs* Try as I may, my brain is still mush some days.
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
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I wasn't fighting with anyone, I was just stating my opinion on the matter/thread/issue blah blah blah. If you don't like me saying "Hey, hit that dead horse again" then fine, but I am definitely not angry or threatened by people discussing anything.
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The title of the thread is "Disappointment in the Update Schedule", not "Disappointment in the Quality of Constructive Criticism" - in case you missed that. Since there hasn't been much hissy-fittage at all in this thread, I'm not sure why this digression you've perpetuated over the weekend became the point of the thread.
Smells a little threadjack-y. Smells a little axe-grindy. Maybe something's being lost in translation. Thanks for keeping this thread on the front page, though. There was some good constructive dialogue and feedback for the actual topic of the thread going on before the weekend, and your bumps have a good chance to get some fresh eyes today for the original topic that was initiated by the first posting.
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There was Clint, this thread has been clipped more then once. I'm not one to stop a good healthy debate. You all go right ahead, I'm going to go poke the parody threads now 
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
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Im just saying sometimes you learn more from a smack in the head than a gentle hand on your shoulder.
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My Proctologist had the 'gentle hand on your shoulder' technique down pat. It didn't mean that what the other hand was doing was nice at ALL.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
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There was Clint, this thread has been clipped more then once.
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"There was" hissy-fittage, I guess you were trying to say?
Really, the only notable snippage was the Taser digression before the weekend, and you can't really hold the thread responsible. Much like this digression, he was complaining about a "ZOMG!" discussion that didn't actually exist in this thread.
Have fun in the parody threads before they get deleted.
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There was Clint, this thread has been clipped more then once.
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"There was" hissy-fittage, I guess you were trying to say?
Really, the only notable snippage was the Taser digression before the weekend, and you can't really hold the thread responsible. Much like this digression, he was complaining about a "ZOMG!" discussion that didn't actually exist in this thread.
Have fun in the parody threads before they get deleted.
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Yes yes silly boy, but that is when my posts started.
And I will thank you
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
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Likewise the idea that "no news is good news" is a very bad idea. No news means no feedback, good or bad. That means people don't care enough to say something. That's a bad place to be.
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...or it means they're too involved in what they're doing to say anything. I know my own habits in this regard, at least: If I go to a restaurant and the experience stinks, I'll gripe quite a lot. If everything's reasonable... I'll eat, pay, thank the waitress, and leave. If everything was fantastic... I'll eat, pay, thank the waitress, tip more than normal, and leave.
I've been making an effort to drag people's managers over to let them know that their suboridnate has done a heck of a job and deserves a raise, or write complimentary emails... but it requires far more deliberate thought than to take the time to gripe.
In short, people that are happy tend to keep doing whatever's making them happy; people that aren't happy complain.
EDIT: Also, would someone PM me a few links to what they consider to be reasonable complaints or criticisms with overblown flaming in response? I'd appreciate it.
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Sir or madam, I offer you the majority of the Tanker forum.
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Im just saying sometimes you learn more from a smack in the head than a gentle hand on your shoulder.
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My Proctologist had the 'gentle hand on your shoulder' technique down pat. It didn't mean that what the other hand was doing was nice at ALL.
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ZOMG PIX PLS?
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Constructive criticism consists of well thought out posts laying out the problem, the solutions available in your mind, the reasons you suggest these solutions, and why people may agree with you. You do *not* speculate on how stupid the developers are or how moronic a given system is - instead you present ideas on how to fix it, and what exactly is wrong with it. No personal attacks, no stupidity, no horrendously flawed logic.
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While there's plenty of inflammatory commentary in this forum, there's plenty of reasoned critiques as well. Daikon's point was that the good gets tarred with the less than good frequently, perhaps reflexively, and often with scathing rebukes of things that were never said by the reply target. Taser's replies in hot topic threads are good example.
Yes, there are plenty of less than useful threads out there, but I think some people are just building up resentment from bad apples and take it out on good apples. Those people have little patience for the occasional "ZOMG!" post that pops up in an otherwise reasonable thread and give into the temptation to dump on a thread just because a couple of numnuts insert "ZOMG!" into an otherwise interesting discussion. I've found that a good chunk of "ZOMG!" posts are made by the same people, and using the forum software to 'Ignore' them out of a thread cuts down on a lot of shoulder-chippage, which in turn cuts down on the "whining about whiners".
Your mileage may vary.
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Exactly the issue I've brought up a few times in the past couple weeks.
By the way, what happened to your old handle?
Taser's brief and only appearance in this thread was, like, last Wednesday or Thursday. Today's Monday.
<cue sound of axe grinding over and over and over>
BTW, the first couple of hundred of posts in this thread gets my kudos for a pretty reasonable feedback discussion of what most people consider a hotly controversial topic for this forum. I hope it gets printed out and passed around the next big scheduling meeting at Cryptic. They're not going to get a more well-rounded read on non-"ZOMG!" player expectations than this. Hopefully, it helps is some small way.
On Feedback and Personal Attacks on Devs
Of course personal attacks on Devs aren't contrustictive. They're emotional, irrational reactions. They're also about as common as sightings of Bigfoot waterskiing behind the Lochness monster and Ogopogo.
Seriously, I read alot of threads, far more than I post in, and these personal attacks almost never come up. When they do, they're usually quickly deleted, and even then, the most common ones are based on ignorance of the roles of certain people, such as complaining that Lighthouse is posting alot instead of working on the game, when an informed player knows that the first activity is part of his job, while the second isn't something he can do, since he works for NCSoft and not Cryptic.
It also baffles me that this thread which is free of such attacks has been derailed into a discussion about this phenomenon. These personal attacks on devs seem more commonly to be brought up by people making attempts to discredit any criticism of the game by pointing out the most extreme, rare, examples of criticism, or by people unable to see the difference between saying "I don't like this, I think you could make some improvements" and "I hate you and hope several rabid ferrets climb up your pant legs."
On Comparisons to WoW
A ways back in the thread, someone asked why people commonly compare various facets of CoH to WoW. I don't play WoW or any other MMO, but I think there are some reasonable reasons to compare the two games.
Firstly, WoW is the most successfuly MMO in history, at least in North America. WoW is the undisputed leader in this field in terms of commericial success and as a cultural phenomenon. No other MMO has shown up being satirized on the comics page of my newspaper, or had commericials on mainstream TV in my experience.
WoW is to MMOs what the Ipod is to MP3 Players. Now, if you're a competitor within the MP3 Player field, it only makes sense that you'd want to take all the lessons you can from Apple's success with the Ipod. You probably can't hope to dethrone the Ipod, but you can learn about whats popular about it, what features people like, and try to incorporate those things into your own product.
Now, its popular to bash WoW around here in some quarters, and I'm sure the game has its flaws. But with seven million subscribers (according to their advertising anyways), there's probably something for CoH to learn from WoW.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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Now, its popular to bash WoW around here in some quarters, and I'm sure the game has its flaws. But with seven million subscribers (according to their advertising anyways), there's probably something for CoH to learn from WoW.
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Yep, and that the sword of a thousand truths could PWNZ statesman. 
Quick! To MAGI so that we can make a sword of a million truths!
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Now, its popular to bash WoW around here in some quarters, and I'm sure the game has its flaws. But with seven million subscribers (according to their advertising anyways), there's probably something for CoH to learn from WoW.
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I play both games, and have since each of the respective games were in Beta in 2004 (with time-off for RL life as needed). And I would say, you are definitely correct. No, WoW is not flawless, but no game is. But there are numerous things other MMO developers could learn from Blizzard. Which is funny, in a way, because John Smedley (SOE), Jack (Cryptic), and others have even admitted as much and what, in their opinion, those things are, in interviews over the past two years. Yet, not one of them seems interested in actually implimenting those "things".
Oh well.
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Now, its popular to bash WoW around here in some quarters, and I'm sure the game has its flaws. But with seven million subscribers (according to their advertising anyways), there's probably something for CoH to learn from WoW.
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I'd wager many folk happen to have many, many opinions of what WoW's success can be attributed to. I'm resisting the urge to post my stock response of "It's not exactly something you can implement on a whim."
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
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Now, its popular to bash WoW around here in some quarters, and I'm sure the game has its flaws. But with seven million subscribers (according to their advertising anyways), there's probably something for CoH to learn from WoW.
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I'd wager many folk happen to have many, many opinions of what WoW's success can be attributed to. I'm resisting the urge to post my stock response of "It's not exactly something you can implement on a whim."
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Thats resisting posting a stock response how, exactly?
I'd also note that I made no comments about the ease or speed of implementing features or lessons learned from WoW into CoH.
Nor did I comment on the reasons for WoW's success, which are surely diverse. The fact remains though, WoW is the undisputable market leader for MMOs. Therefore, there may be something to learn for other MMO developers to learn from WoW. Just like say, Microsoft likely looked at the Ipod when designing their Zune MP3 player.
Heroes
Dysmal
Lumynous
Sam Steele
Pluck
Wile
Slagheap
Pressure Wave
Rhiannon Bel
Verified
Stellaric
Syd Mallorn
Villains
Jotunheim Skald
Saer Maen
Jen Corbae
Illuminance
Venator Arawn
Taiga Dryad
Tarranos
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Thats resisting posting a stock response how, exactly?
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It's putting down the summary of said response, instead of going into the full-fledged response.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
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S'awright.
I believe anyone that starts a serious post with "ZOMG" should be sterlised for the good of humanity.
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Those were exactly the people I was targetting Foo <;_;>
Why do people never understand what I am saying?! <T.T> Am I typing with cottonballs on my paws or something?! <;.;>
Maybe mew is just stupid <_ _>; *cry*
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In all seriousness - I never ever intend to give the impression I'm against feedback. Hardly. People seem to forget the feedback I've delivered myself over the years - its been there, on a great many subjects.
All I ask is for some base-level congeniality. Ya know... Treat the devs as people who make mistakes, as opposed to slaves for you to whip because you haven't gotten your way.
That's all >.<
The easy Dos and Do Nots of feedback posting:
DO Explain the Issue
DO Offer a Solution
DO Refrain from being an [censored]
DO Agree to disagree with people.
DO Accept that you have an influence, but that so does everyone else - your opinion will not always triumph.
DON'T Call the developers and/or other posters names.
DON'T Question their competence. Its unnecessary, because obviously if there's a problem, they're probably already thinking about it. Telling them they suck at math doesn't make them better at math; and no matter how nicely you phrase it, telling someone they suck at math is still insulting.
DON'T Shove a trout up your nose. Seriously, just don't do it.
If people could stay relatively close to that - we'd get plenty of quality feedback, sans stupidity. I have no illusion that there's not a problem. Using the topic this thread is based on as an example - (as well as re-voicing my own opinion on that subject)
I'm pretty annoyed at the update schedule myself.
3-4 months was great way back when - I7 and I8 have been far far too slow, and certainly something needs to be done. As others have suggested, smaller, more numerous updates, would probably be ideal.
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I could go into alot further detail, but I already explained my opinion some posts back in full <,<
See? Express displeasure with given situation - explain possible solution - refrain from being an [censored]. <@_@> EASY! If someone disagrees with me - I may debate them on it, but I'm not going to call them names, question their sanity (unless its UncleBob or certain of my fellow LoC members), or ask if they're a 34 year old man living in their mom's basement.
Ok I'll shuddup now: I wouldn't *bother* to make posts of this sort if it hadn't been a problem more than once. Likely I haven't made a bit of difference, but it's my nature to try anyway!
A Warrior's Friend: ID 335212 - Help Infernal save Valkyrie from Battle Maiden.
Above Mars Part 1: The Wellington: ID 159769 - Save Mars by destroying a monstrous battleship from the inside!
>.> My DA page, where I attempt to art.
You and I Misty, agree. The extremists... all of 'em, can <edited to prevent massive, super banning... the AoE would take us all>!
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Not to start this debate, but NCSoft's own reports show no discernable loss when I5 or I6 went live. In fact, it lept up quite a bit in the first reports after I6 (also the release of CoV in that window). The loss that happened around the time of I5 fits the normal "churn" loss that most MMO's experience, and represents closer to 10%, not 40%.
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Ah, so it's like 70% of all statistics quoted on the boards, then: made up out of thin air?
edit: Dangit! Hexy beat me to the punchline.