Disappointment in the Update Schedule
By
8_Ball,
Posted on: 2006-11-21 24:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[quoteHow about, "It seems like the Devs aren't very good at math due to X and Y mistakes they've made?"
I'm not saying it's polite, but pointing out where the Devs are lacking can certainly be true. After all, they're only people, and therefore imperfect.
Heck, if I were on a Dev team and found we kept making errors in judgement or coming up with different answers than everyone else, I'd take serious stock of the situation and maybe start thinking about bringing someone in to bolster those areas where we keep coming up short.
[/ QUOTE ]
To many, that phrase ("It seems like the Devs aren't very good at math due to X and Y mistakes they've made?") really says is "I'm ignorant and judgemental, please flame me."
- The statement assumes that the problem is obvious, a fix is easy, and assumes the developers are incompetent. It ignores the fact that EVERY game design studio has had the same issues, that games are not an exact science, and that MOST games go through radical revisioning as they try over and over again to come up with something that *seems to* work. An online game, that can only iterate through so many "revisions" before becoming horribly late, is all the more difficult.
- It assumes that there's some "outside force" that just needs to be put in charge to make everything right. Now, I've been amazed at how poorly-structured and planned some game studios are, but I've also seen where studios trying more "traditional" process improvement management techniques have suffocated.
There are no good answers, and the confrontational tone used (challenging someone's competence) will just derail the issue, rather than address what you really want to address.
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Much of this can be seen in how a (good) teacher operates. We can't ignore faults and flaws- we have to grade people writing in kiddiespeak poorly, but we also frame it in a way designed to encourage, not discourage.
-You don't say "you're (the devs) are incompetent"-BUT- you don't ignore the mistakes (like some fans do):
1)Identify the issue. Only the observable facts, no assumptions.
"The first hints for I8 pointed to a September launch. Then, it was stated that Inventions were put off to I9 so it wouldn't delay I8. Then, I8 was delayed anyway, with hints to a launch post-halloween. Now, it's post-Thanksgiving.
2) Recognize the challenges. Show you understand what they face and are not being unreasonable.
I understand that some changes to underlying tech can cause some unforseen consequences, and that those issues are difficult to schedule for, but the delays frustrate the player base.
3) State the goal
We need to either
-improve our ability to plan debugging into our schedule or
-manage the tech updates in a way that won't delay content releases.
4) (Optional) Offer solution leads.
This might very well involve bringing in someone more experienced at realistically establishing a schedule. It might involve additional training from an external "expert."
Whatever you suggest, just be ready to accept that they might see more about the issue than you, and their solution may differ radically from yours.
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How about, "It seems like the Devs aren't very good at math due to X and Y mistakes they've made?"
I'm not saying it's polite, but pointing out where the Devs are lacking can certainly be true. After all, they're only people, and therefore imperfect.
Heck, if I were on a Dev team and found we kept making errors in judgement or coming up with different answers than everyone else, I'd take serious stock of the situation and maybe start thinking about bringing someone in to bolster those areas where we keep coming up short.
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You don't have to be overly polite to give constructive criticism. And criticism doesn't require insults.
I've been accused of the dev-fan-love thing. But my biggest complaint about that, just treat like human beings, not dogs. There's been a lot of really valid points that got lost in a thread because everything devolves. Remember the 'Lying liers and the lies they tell' crap? That was nuts. Just nuts. But I believe that if that whole thing had been phrased differently, there wouldn't have been the bit Statesman cutting the other devs brake lines to diversify the ride home or replacing his muffler with an Ethiopian baby.
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I don't disagree, but all this does is give certain posters (and you likely know which ones) another way to try and publicly discount the possibly rational, if poorly-self-moderated, complaints of others. So I agree to a point, but then caution folks that there's often a reason people get heated about things, and it's because they care, which is really testament to the game.
Also, the Devs don't need our protection. They are adults. They're perfectly capable of ignoring foolish rants themselves without having us conflagrate things and forcing the mods to lock threads which might otherwise have yielded insight and relevance.
I say it all time in these threads: complaints are GOOD. Complaints are whip that keeps the ox pulling the plow. Complaints are what tell a business how to improve. Complaints are opportunities for a business to improve consumer relations.
The greatest threat to the game isn't people complaining; far from it, in fact. The greatest threat is from people whose devotion to the game is so complete that they can barely see any flaws to improve upon, and can't countenance words daring to say otherwise.
...uh, sorry about the soapbox. 
Also: The brakeline and baby thing were satirical. Satire, parody and humour are often the best ways to find out what a group is thinking, and shouldn't be discounted simply for being colourful.
Good stuff Chase, but I'm wary of the "offer suggestion," bit, in part because people get enamoured over their own ideas and take it personally when they're not accepted, and in part because the impacts of player suggestions are not always well thought out. In general, it's usually better to identify the specific problems we see, suggest things we'd like to see, and let the powers that be figure out how to fix it all. They, after all, are the only ones who know what may or may not work based on the internal structure of both the organization and the code.
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How about, "It seems like the Devs aren't very good at math due to X and Y mistakes they've made?"
I'm not saying it's polite, but pointing out where the Devs are lacking can certainly be true. After all, they're only people, and therefore imperfect.
Heck, if I were on a Dev team and found we kept making errors in judgement or coming up with different answers than everyone else, I'd take serious stock of the situation and maybe start thinking about bringing someone in to bolster those areas where we keep coming up short.
[/ QUOTE ]
To many, that phrase ("It seems like the Devs aren't very good at math due to X and Y mistakes they've made?") really says is "I'm ignorant and judgemental, please flame me."
- The statement assumes that the problem is obvious, a fix is easy, and assumes the developers are incompetent. It ignores the fact that EVERY game design studio has had the same issues, that games are not an exact science, and that MOST games go through radical revisioning as they try over and over again to come up with something that *seems to* work. An online game, that can only iterate through so many "revisions" before becoming horribly late, is all the more difficult.
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I have no idea how you got here from what I said. I was purposefully vague and unspecific, and you seem to have drawn specific conclusions.
I will also offer the following as counterpoint: Circeus and Arcanaville. Both posters have identified and offered solutions to problems that the Dev team implemented. Im fairly certain both have also, at times, been critical of certain aspects of the team as lacking.
The problem can be complex. Just because someone on the boards believes theyve got an answer doesnt mean its simple. The person on the boards also does not have to necessarily have an answer to know that somethings wrong, either. The fact that some on the board HAVE pointed out problems, given solutions, and had them implemented would seem to indicate that, well, it doesnt matter that other studios have issues, or the most games have revisions.
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- It assumes that there's some "outside force" that just needs to be put in charge to make everything right. Now, I've been amazed at how poorly-structured and planned some game studios are, but I've also seen where studios trying more "traditional" process improvement management techniques have suffocated.
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I dont understand your point here.
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There are no good answers, and the confrontational tone used (challenging someone's competence) will just derail the issue, rather than address what you really want to address.
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No good answers to what, exactly? Im pretty sure there are good answers to great many things, though I dont disagree that a more confrontational tone is generally ill-advised. I simply said that tone has little bearing on truth.
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Much of this can be seen in how a (good) teacher operates. We can't ignore faults and flaws- we have to grade people writing in kiddiespeak poorly, but we also frame it in a way designed to encourage, not discourage.
-You don't say "you're (the devs) are incompetent"-BUT- you don't ignore the mistakes (like some fans do):
1)Identify the issue. Only the observable facts, no assumptions.
"The first hints for I8 pointed to a September launch. Then, it was stated that Inventions were put off to I9 so it wouldn't delay I8. Then, I8 was delayed anyway, with hints to a launch post-halloween. Now, it's post-Thanksgiving.
2) Recognize the challenges. Show you understand what they face and are not being unreasonable.
I understand that some changes to underlying tech can cause some unforseen consequences, and that those issues are difficult to schedule for, but the delays frustrate the player base.
3) State the goal
We need to either
-improve our ability to plan debugging into our schedule or
-manage the tech updates in a way that won't delay content releases.
4) (Optional) Offer solution leads.
This might very well involve bringing in someone more experienced at realistically establishing a schedule. It might involve additional training from an external "expert."
Whatever you suggest, just be ready to accept that they might see more about the issue than you, and their solution may differ radically from yours.
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Again, Im not disagreeing. Im just saying sometimes you learn more from a smack in the head than a gentle hand on your shoulder. 
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How about, "It seems like the Devs aren't very good at math due to X and Y mistakes they've made?"
I'm not saying it's polite, but pointing out where the Devs are lacking can certainly be true. After all, they're only people, and therefore imperfect.
Heck, if I were on a Dev team and found we kept making errors in judgement or coming up with different answers than everyone else, I'd take serious stock of the situation and maybe start thinking about bringing someone in to bolster those areas where we keep coming up short.
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't have to be overly polite to give constructive criticism. And criticism doesn't require insults.
I've been accused of the dev-fan-love thing. But my biggest complaint about that, just treat like human beings, not dogs. There's been a lot of really valid points that got lost in a thread because everything devolves. Remember the 'Lying liers and the lies they tell' crap? That was nuts. Just nuts. But I believe that if that whole thing had been phrased differently, there wouldn't have been the bit Statesman cutting the other devs brake lines to diversify the ride home or replacing his muffler with an Ethiopian baby.
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I don't disagree, but all this does is give certain posters (and you likely know which ones) another way to try and publicly discount the possibly rational, if poorly-self-moderated, complaints of others. So I agree to a point, but then caution folks that there's often a reason people get heated about things, and it's because they care, which is really testament to the game.
Also, the Devs don't need our protection. They are adults. They're perfectly capable of ignoring foolish rants themselves without having us conflagrate things and forcing the mods to lock threads which might otherwise have yielded insight and relevance.
I say it all time in these threads: complaints are GOOD. Complaints are whip that keeps the ox pulling the plow. Complaints are what tell a business how to improve. Complaints are opportunities for a business to improve consumer relations.
The greatest threat to the game isn't people complaining; far from it, in fact. The greatest threat is from people whose devotion to the game is so complete that they can barely see any flaws to improve upon, and can't countenance words daring to say otherwise.
...uh, sorry about the soapbox.
Also: The brakeline and baby thing were satirical. Satire, parody and humour are often the best ways to find out what a group is thinking, and shouldn't be discounted simply for being colourful.
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Ok, but how helpful is "ZOMG ED SUX U NERF ME YOU <BLEEPITY BLEEPING> DEVS!!!"?
That's where criticism fails to even exist and insults take over completely. But, even a thread that starts out like that, a couple of posts asking why that might get a little more intelligent discussion going are beneficial. On that point, I agree with you. I just haven't seen very many that started heated not get deleted because they go way out there.
And I know the devs are adults. It's a shame though that some of playerbase can't at least sound adult-like. Think about it, screaming 'u sux devs i h8 u' versus actually explaining what's upsetting isn't going to make anyone listen. It's true in life. The louder you talk, the less people listen. You start from an aggressive and angry place and the natural response is to get defensive.
Try it. In life or in game, if you want to get a point across to someone, think about how you'd take what you want to say from someone else. Think about how you can phrase it to get the other person to see your point of view. Then talk to them in a manner that sounds like they want to help you. Congratulations, you now have career possibilities in politics, and managerial position, Corporate America or as a lawyer. No, I'm not joking. If you know how to phrase it, you can tell another person to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. If you can do that, you can certainly make a point on a forum that has a lower probability of degrading to 'u suk' 'no u suk'.
So, is I8 out yet, then? 
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So, is I8 out yet, then?
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*smacks North*
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
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So, is I8 out yet, then?
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Yes, but you have to solo a TA/A defender to 50 on Invincible to unlock it.
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So, is I8 out yet, then?
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Yes, it is. It's been on the internal server for a while now.
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How about, "It seems like the Devs aren't very good at math due to X and Y mistakes they've made?"
I'm not saying it's polite, but pointing out where the Devs are lacking can certainly be true. After all, they're only people, and therefore imperfect.
Heck, if I were on a Dev team and found we kept making errors in judgement or coming up with different answers than everyone else, I'd take serious stock of the situation and maybe start thinking about bringing someone in to bolster those areas where we keep coming up short.
[/ QUOTE ]
You don't have to be overly polite to give constructive criticism. And criticism doesn't require insults.
I've been accused of the dev-fan-love thing. But my biggest complaint about that, just treat like human beings, not dogs. There's been a lot of really valid points that got lost in a thread because everything devolves. Remember the 'Lying liers and the lies they tell' crap? That was nuts. Just nuts. But I believe that if that whole thing had been phrased differently, there wouldn't have been the bit Statesman cutting the other devs brake lines to diversify the ride home or replacing his muffler with an Ethiopian baby.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree, but all this does is give certain posters (and you likely know which ones) another way to try and publicly discount the possibly rational, if poorly-self-moderated, complaints of others. So I agree to a point, but then caution folks that there's often a reason people get heated about things, and it's because they care, which is really testament to the game.
Also, the Devs don't need our protection. They are adults. They're perfectly capable of ignoring foolish rants themselves without having us conflagrate things and forcing the mods to lock threads which might otherwise have yielded insight and relevance.
I say it all time in these threads: complaints are GOOD. Complaints are whip that keeps the ox pulling the plow. Complaints are what tell a business how to improve. Complaints are opportunities for a business to improve consumer relations.
The greatest threat to the game isn't people complaining; far from it, in fact. The greatest threat is from people whose devotion to the game is so complete that they can barely see any flaws to improve upon, and can't countenance words daring to say otherwise.
...uh, sorry about the soapbox.
Also: The brakeline and baby thing were satirical. Satire, parody and humour are often the best ways to find out what a group is thinking, and shouldn't be discounted simply for being colourful.
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Ok, but how helpful is "ZOMG ED SUX U NERF ME YOU <BLEEPITY BLEEPING> DEVS!!!"?
That's where criticism fails to even exist and insults take over completely. But, even a thread that starts out like that, a couple of posts asking why that might get a little more intelligent discussion going are beneficial. On that point, I agree with you. I just haven't seen very many that started heated not get deleted because they go way out there.
And I know the devs are adults. It's a shame though that some of playerbase can't at least sound adult-like. Think about it, screaming 'u sux devs i h8 u' versus actually explaining what's upsetting isn't going to make anyone listen. It's true in life. The louder you talk, the less people listen. You start from an aggressive and angry place and the natural response is to get defensive.
Try it. In life or in game, if you want to get a point across to someone, think about how you'd take what you want to say from someone else. Think about how you can phrase it to get the other person to see your point of view. Then talk to them in a manner that sounds like they want to help you. Congratulations, you now have career possibilities in politics, and managerial position, Corporate America or as a lawyer. No, I'm not joking. If you know how to phrase it, you can tell another person to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. If you can do that, you can certainly make a point on a forum that has a lower probability of degrading to 'u suk' 'no u suk'.
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I wasn't at all discussing "ZOMG ED SUX U NERF ME YOU <BLEEPITY BLEEPING> DEVS!!!" posts, for the record.
Ooops.
I was.
Sorry for misunderstanding.
S'awright.
I believe anyone that starts a serious post with "ZOMG" should be sterlised for the good of humanity. 
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S'awright.
I believe anyone that starts a serious post with "ZOMG" should be sterlised for the good of humanity.
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ZOMG. Ok seriously guys, enough with the i8 posts already!
......sorry, couldn't help it.
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
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Good stuff Chase, but I'm wary of the "offer suggestion," bit, in part because people get enamoured over their own ideas and take it personally when they're not accepted, and in part because the impacts of player suggestions are not always well thought out. In general, it's usually better to identify the specific problems we see, suggest things we'd like to see, and let the powers that be figure out how to fix it all. They, after all, are the only ones who know what may or may not work based on the internal structure of both the organization and the code.
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That's why I made "offer suggestions" optional, really. Sometimes it's necessary- for different reasons. When teaching, you have some people that are too afraid to think creatively, and you have to "tease it out of them" with leading suggestions or questions.
Then, in the business world, there's the common manager line of "don't come to me with a problem unless you have three solutions" crap.
Your concern is very real, though. People often get so focused on their own idea that they can't accept any other.
I understand that programing can have there problems..and they did say (IF) everything goes right we will be playing I8 over Thanksgiving Holidays .. Well Things did not go the way they wanted it looks .. BUT they should at least keep us informed on when it may be ready instead of letting us wonder when after they told us a date.... I Think it is JUST PLAIN RUDE of them to not inform us what is going on... Guess there making so much money from us they really dont give a Hoot about there members .. If they keep this type of public relations up they will loose many members...Maybe that is what they need for them to WAKE UP!
C'mon Devs let us know something, when is I8 now expected to be out? Keep us informed once you give us a date like you did!
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I understand that programing can have there problems..and they did say (IF) everything goes right we will be playing I8 over Thanksgiving Holidays .. Well Things did not go the way they wanted it looks .. BUT they should at least keep us informed on when it may be ready instead of letting us wonder when after they told us a date.... I Think it is JUST PLAIN RUDE of them to not inform us what is going on... Guess there making so much money from us they really dont give a Hoot about there members .. If they keep this type of public relations up they will loose many members...Maybe that is what they need for them to WAKE UP!
C'mon Devs let us know something, when is I8 now expected to be out? Keep us informed once you give us a date like you did!
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You mean like I8 Testing Update?
If only the devs would tell us stuff like that. harumpf.
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I understand that programing can have there problems..and they did say (IF) everything goes right we will be playing I8 over Thanksgiving Holidays .. Well Things did not go the way they wanted it looks .. BUT they should at least keep us informed on when it may be ready instead of letting us wonder when after they told us a date.... I Think it is JUST PLAIN RUDE of them to not inform us what is going on... Guess there making so much money from us they really dont give a Hoot about there members .. If they keep this type of public relations up they will loose many members...Maybe that is what they need for them to WAKE UP!
C'mon Devs let us know something, when is I8 now expected to be out? Keep us informed once you give us a date like you did!
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You mean like I8 Testing Update?
If only the devs would tell us stuff like that. harumpf.
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Don't ruin a perfectly good rant with stuff like facts.
Sheesh, if people like you were in charge, where would the major news networks be?
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People seem to be overlooking the fact that right now we're playing a 3-4 gig beast when the original CoH was a little gig baby. We're dealing with a LOT of code that takes a LOT of testing to get new content added. And we're also dealing with a far more critical playerbase right now than we were at launch. If something goes on test that isn't 100% perfect (Flight poses, looking at you), you can be sure there'll be protests.
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Just to interject here... be aware that the increase from 0.9 gig to 2.1 gig is mostly art & graphics. The code hasn't increased appreciably, just the art assets it uses.
Now, I'm not saying that the code hasn't grown (it has). I'm just making a point that most of the increase is due to art.
Now as for content updates, GW does a remarkable job of making many little adjustments as well as free content updates plus they run regular events. Their major content updates are box sets but they do free ones as well.
Like many others here, I find it some what disconcerting that the updates are taking longer and longer.
Virtue: multiple characters.
CoH/V: Woot! Maybe Fun is to be had once again.
Ack! RUN! Regen is glowing mean & green!
If it reduces you, it's a nerf.
If it buffs the mobs, it's challenge.
They are not the same.
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I guess I look at it as the game goes and grows the complexity makes it harder and harder to add meaningful content.
Which got me thinking: If the game were frozen, never to change, how many would stay and play anyway? Besides me.
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Roughly 40% of the playerbase left when the drastic changes of I5 and I6 went live. I would say that most of the departures then were more due to the way that the Devs handled the whole thing as opposed to the game changes (Yes, the game did need some serious adjustment.). How much change is too much?
"I never said thank you." - Lt. Gordon
"And you'll never have to." - the Dark Knight
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Why is it that people come on these boards with legitimate complaints, and then a gaggle of posters call "whiner!".
Hey, stop using the boards for one of thier chief purposes!
I don't know if these guys realized this, but the devs have actually actioned issues which have been vetted on these boards. The halloween event is a recent example. Also of note is that the RSF is being lowered to level 53, and villains are going to get access to the hami raid.
Not all complaints are worthwhile, but at least make that case instead of the ad hominem attack of "Whiner!"
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People already did make the case. The boards aren't here to make the same complaints over and over and over again, nor are they here for people to use to try and bash the devs.
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Well, you've made your point that you feel this thread's topic has been driven into the ground several times. The peak of your moral high ground is so subtle as to be nigh imperceptible to the outside observer.
I'm not telling you to stop posting as you please, but there seems to be a paradox at work here. Just sayin'.
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Roughly 40% of the playerbase left when the drastic changes of I5 and I6 went live.
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Just curious: what's your source for this statistic?
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I guess I look at it as the game goes and grows the complexity makes it harder and harder to add meaningful content.
Which got me thinking: If the game were frozen, never to change, how many would stay and play anyway? Besides me.
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Roughly 40% of the playerbase left when the drastic changes of I5 and I6 went live. I would say that most of the departures then were more due to the way that the Devs handled the whole thing as opposed to the game changes (Yes, the game did need some serious adjustment.). How much change is too much?
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Not to start this debate, but NCSoft's own reports show no discernable loss when I5 or I6 went live. In fact, it lept up quite a bit in the first reports after I6 (also the release of CoV in that window). The loss that happened around the time of I5 fits the normal "churn" loss that most MMO's experience, and represents closer to 10%, not 40%.
I can't link to the stockholder reports atm, but MMOGChart uses them in his projections. For all the issues with comparing numbers, MMOGchart does rate the CoH number accuracy as reliable, taken from these reports. (It's alot easier to mislead people in press releases, which fall under less scrutiny)
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Why is it that people come on these boards with legitimate complaints, and then a gaggle of posters call "whiner!".
Hey, stop using the boards for one of thier chief purposes!
I don't know if these guys realized this, but the devs have actually actioned issues which have been vetted on these boards. The halloween event is a recent example. Also of note is that the RSF is being lowered to level 53, and villains are going to get access to the hami raid.
Not all complaints are worthwhile, but at least make that case instead of the ad hominem attack of "Whiner!"
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People already did make the case. The boards aren't here to make the same complaints over and over and over again, nor are they here for people to use to try and bash the devs.
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Well, you've made your point that you feel this thread's topic has been driven into the ground several times. The peak of your moral high ground is so subtle as to be nigh imperceptible to the outside observer.
I'm not telling you to stop posting as you please, but there seems to be a paradox at work here. Just sayin'.
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No paradox, just beating one repeative post with another.
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
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Roughly 40% of the playerbase left when the drastic changes of I5 and I6 went live.
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Just curious: what's your source for this statistic?
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I was wondering the same thing. But we all know that 79% of statistics are made up on the spot, which is 53% believable.
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
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Whining is a point of view . It was cool that you took the time to write all that , but it was irrelevant .
Agree to disagree , telling people they are whining in a forum where your encourage by the Developers to give your opinion is flaming , there isn't any reason for it.
EDIT: I'm only talking about *Whining* in general , there isn't any reason people attacking other people with that term , when all they had to do was say " Sorry I disagree , this is why"
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The post wasn't irrelevant anymore then yours is, there is a difference between constructively complaining about something that needs fixing/changed and just flat out complaining (not saying this thread is either or, just in general).
And before you go off saying that people shouldn't attack others with such terms, perhaps you should not tell someone their post is irrelevant because it's essentially the type of attack.
[/ QUOTE ]HexGirl , did you read what I said? I was only talking about *Whining* I wasn't putting her post down or anything (I liked her post , maybe I worded my post wrong ) .
I meant giving excuses why some people do it was irrelevant , because we shouldn't be calling other posters *whiners* in the first place.
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Yes I read it. If that was what you were implying it definitely doesn't come across that way. The way it's worded says "You're whole post is irrellevant". Maybe a little more specification next time?
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray