Disappointment in the Update Schedule
By
8_Ball,
Posted on: 2006-11-21 24:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Serious question here. Is the company making roughly the same amount of money each month as it has in the past? If so, why do we have fewer devs? I've heard that our subscription numbers are not down, so what's the deal? Does all the money spent on CoH/V go back into CoH/V (and of course the expenses associated with the game) or do they get diverted into other projects like MUO or Auto Assault? Could poorly performing side projects be draining money from our game?
Everything added to the game is content.
Content is new zones, missions and such. Costumes are not content. Bases are not content. Badges are not content. PvP is not content. They're all fluff. They're toys to be played with when you're not actually playing the game.
That doesn't mean they're not worth adding, or that I don't like them myself. It does mean that in terms of actual content, i8 is pretty light. The new Faultline is nice but even level-appropriate characters will be done with it fairly quickly. Police band missions Safeguards are the real content addition for i8 and not everyone cares for them. (I happen to like them.)
The devs really, really, really need to stop adding content to the shallow end of the game. The game doesn't need any more work below level 30 (which is about the 25% mark in terms of advancement). It needs the godawful duplicated missions in the level 30-35 CoH bracket replaced. Sit someone down RIGHT NOW, remove the duplicate entries and write ANYTHING to replace them. Doesn't have to be brilliant stuff. Those duplicates are a huge embarassment, a reminder that the game wasn't finished when it shipped, and I have no idea why they've been allowed to exist for so long.
Then we need new real content in the 35-50 ranges. I don't care how much fun it might be for the developers to rebuild Boomtown; unless it's going to be a 35+ zone, we don't need it.
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"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
Depends on what percentage of the monthly fees go to NCSoft and Cryptic, and what restrictions if any there are on what that money can be spent on.
I don't believe that the poor perfomance of Auto Assault is affecting CoH directly. Remember that Cryptic develops the game, not NCSoft, and a third company, NetDevil I think, develops AA. Now, poor performance of AA could affect the NCSoft run aspects of CoH, like the forums, GMs, tech support, etc.
But actual development at Cryptic? Unlikely to be affected in my opinion. The one place where poor performance of other NCSoft games could potentially affect CoH is in QA, as all patches must go through NCSoft QA before they hit our Test Server and thence to Live. It is conceivable that say, staff reducations in the NCSoft QA department brought in as a result of poor performance of other games could slow that process down.
MUO, well, thats more likely to drain developer time and attention away from CoH than other NCSoft games IMO. As an established company with a track record Cryptic surely got a better deal from Marvel and Microsoft than the deal they made with NCSoft when they were a startup studio with no record to point to, and therefore little bargaining power. MUO is Cryptic's future, while CoH is its past and present.
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I havent read the thread yet with the exception of the OP so I apologize if this perspective has already been discussed. I personally look at it from an average standpoint;
Game release = April 28, 2004 to Nov 28, 2006 = 31 months
8 Issues give us an average of an issue just less then every four months and that doesnt seem all too bad to me. Granted, if the next two issues hit the six month mark then we will obviously see that average grow but I am not personally ready to start the signal fires of discontent and doom (for lack of a better word).
I absolutely do look forward to new content but, considering both games and what they currently offer as well as my own possibly slower play style, maybe im not quite the model player but for what its worth. Im happy.
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It isn't just the issues, but what is contained. See the OP, and compare what comes in them.
Also, it really isn't fair to call I6 an issue, since it didn't actually really add anything. Heck, even the CoV costume options were added after the fact, mostly.
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I havent read the thread yet with the exception of the OP so I apologize if this perspective has already been discussed. I personally look at it from an average standpoint;
Game release = April 28, 2004 to Nov 28, 2006 = 31 months
8 Issues give us an average of an issue just less then every four months and that doesnt seem all too bad to me. Granted, if the next two issues hit the six month mark then we will obviously see that average grow but I am not personally ready to start the signal fires of discontent and doom (for lack of a better word).
I absolutely do look forward to new content but, considering both games and what they currently offer as well as my own possibly slower play style, maybe im not quite the model player but for what its worth. Im happy.
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Game goes live April 24th 2004 (time frame from last update)
Issue 1: Through the Looking Glass June 29, 2004 (2 months)
Issue 2: A Shadow of the Past September 16, 2004 (2.75 months)
Issue 3: A Council of War January 5, 2005 (3.5 months)
Issue 4: Colosseum May 4, 2005 (4 months)
Issue 5: Forest of Dread August 31, 2005 (3.75 months)
Issue 6: Along Came a Spider (COV) October 27, 2005 (2 months)
Issue 7: Destiny Manifest June 6, 2006 (7.5 months)
Issuse 8: Protect and Serve Guessing November 28, 2006 (5.75 months)
I think you might be missing the point of the OP, the last 2 updates have taken upwards of 50% longer then the updates before them. If this trend continues, this will most likely result an many players moving on to other games. We should be on Issue 9, if not Issue 10 right now.
I have been here sice the game came out, they have been talking about high end content for over a year now and if Issue 9 is in development for another 6 months like the last 2 updates the game will be over 3 years old. I know of no other MMO with the popularity of COX taking anywere near as long for true high end content.
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Does all the money spent on CoH/V go back into CoH/V (and of course the expenses associated with the game) or do they get diverted into other projects like MUO or Auto Assault?
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Auto Assault is a NCSoft problem, not a Cryptic problem. Cryptic's compensation from NCSoft for CoX should be in no way affected by the any other NCSoft title developed by other studios.
As far as MOU is concerned, yeah, cash flow likely gets commingled. Cryptic gets paid for output. How they get there is their business. If they can maintain CoH subs with fewer people working on CoH, they will, just like any other business would. If they need to pull a writer or artist or coder off of one game to help another make a deadline, they will.
After digesting this thread for a little while and thinking about it fully, I've come to a conclusion.
The Playerbase really doesn't know what it wants.
Reason: Look around this thread. Then look around the training room forum. How many posts do you see where someone says "Put I8 on live now!" versus how many you see that say "Wait and fix all the bugs first!" How many times over the past year have we heard the "I'd take a whole issue of just bug fixes" hogwash versus how many people claiming there's not enough in an issue to warrant its development? Or the people claiming they want smaller updates faster versus those who say there isn't enough in each update?
So, going by what the forums have stated they want, we can make this list of demands:
* More stuff in each update
* Less stuff in each update
* Wait until all bugs are fixed
* Push it live now and worry about bugs later
* Give us more missions and content for level 50s
* Give us more missions and content for every other level for my alts
* Give us more costume pieces
* Stop wasting time developing costume pieces
* Just give us an entire issue of bug fixes
* Bug fixes are not content and shouldn't be wasted on an issue
* Give us faster updates with new content
* Take your time and finalize content, don't just give us halfbaked new stuff
See where the problem comes here?
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
[ QUOTE ]
After digesting this thread for a little while and thinking about it fully, I've come to a conclusion.
The Playerbase really doesn't know what it wants.
Reason: Look around this thread. Then look around the training room forum. How many posts do you see where someone says "Put I8 on live now!" versus how many you see that say "Wait and fix all the bugs first!" How many times over the past year have we heard the "I'd take a whole issue of just bug fixes" hogwash versus how many people claiming there's not enough in an issue to warrant its development? Or the people claiming they want smaller updates faster versus those who say there isn't enough in each update?
So, going by what the forums have stated they want, we can make this list of demands:
* More stuff in each update
* Less stuff in each update
* Wait until all bugs are fixed
* Push it live now and worry about bugs later
* Give us more missions and content for level 50s
* Give us more missions and content for every other level for my alts
* Give us more costume pieces
* Stop wasting time developing costume pieces
* Just give us an entire issue of bug fixes
* Bug fixes are not content and shouldn't be wasted on an issue
* Give us faster updates with new content
* Take your time and finalize content, don't just give us halfbaked new stuff
See where the problem comes here?
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I think you're missing the bigger message. These things don't necessarily have to be either/or type choices. How about a good sized update in 3 months or less with no bugs? If you really listen, we are generally in agreement on a lot of things. No one is really asking for:
Longer times between updates
Updates with bugs
Fewer missions for any level
Fewer costume options
We want bug free updates with lots of new stuff to do, and new costumes options added every now and then, and we don't want to have to wait six or seven months at a time to get it. And you know what? Part of the reason we're like this is because of the Devs. They spoiled us in the beginning. Now, they want to back off a bit on the size and freqency, and much of the player base is having a problem with it.
This game is big enough to run with the big boys, but it's moving at a snails pace in terms of story progression and updates. It's like we're hovering when we should be flying!
[ QUOTE ]
After digesting this thread for a little while and thinking about it fully, I've come to a conclusion.
The Playerbase really doesn't know what it wants.
Reason: Look around this thread. Then look around the training room forum. How many posts do you see where someone says "Put I8 on live now!" versus how many you see that say "Wait and fix all the bugs first!" How many times over the past year have we heard the "I'd take a whole issue of just bug fixes" hogwash versus how many people claiming there's not enough in an issue to warrant its development? Or the people claiming they want smaller updates faster versus those who say there isn't enough in each update?
So, going by what the forums have stated they want, we can make this list of demands:
* More stuff in each update
* Less stuff in each update
* Wait until all bugs are fixed
* Push it live now and worry about bugs later
* Give us more missions and content for level 50s
* Give us more missions and content for every other level for my alts
* Give us more costume pieces
* Stop wasting time developing costume pieces
* Just give us an entire issue of bug fixes
* Bug fixes are not content and shouldn't be wasted on an issue
* Give us faster updates with new content
* Take your time and finalize content, don't just give us halfbaked new stuff
See where the problem comes here?
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Ok I seriously spit coffee out from bursting into laughter after reading this. Thanks a lot Taser!
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
But is what you want feasible?
People seem to be overlooking the fact that right now we're playing a 3-4 gig beast when the original CoH was a little gig baby. We're dealing with a LOT of code that takes a LOT of testing to get new content added. And we're also dealing with a far more critical playerbase right now than we were at launch. If something goes on test that isn't 100% perfect (Flight poses, looking at you), you can be sure there'll be protests.
While the general idea of "Give us more more more NOW NOW NOW" is okay if you want to be disappointed every issue, the big picture cannot be ignored. We're dealing with a game that literally has hundreds of thousands of missions for their hundreds of thousands of players. And we've already been shown in the past with new content that the playerbase is not above writing it all off as "just more fighting in a different map."
So tell me, Deathstrike, what does the playerbase want right now?
More costume pieces? Well people are complaining that the devs are wasting their time on those.
More high level content? Well people are complaining that they'd rather run alts or low levels than focus on a loot-heavy end game.
More missions? People say it's all the same mission, just different enemies and textures now.
Faster updates with fewer bugs? Do you really think cutting down on the development time would mean less bugs? Do you really think that making a new issue every 3 months wouldn't drastically cut back on the amount of content each issue had?
People are demanding the game grow like it did when it was in its infancy. Back then, we didn't have 5% of the things we have now. Back then, we literally were only half the game we were now. Growing naturally levels off. You can't tell a teenager to suddenly grow a new set of teeth.
I'd like to see an actual list that mattered: The release date of each issue and how large file-size wise each update made CoH/CoV. Then we'd actually have data we can use. Because just say "Well issue 1 only took 2 months to come out blah blah blah" is ignoring a large part of the delays.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
[ QUOTE ]
After digesting this thread for a little while and thinking about it fully, I've come to a conclusion.
The Playerbase really doesn't know what it wants.
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No offense Taser, but...
Your just now coming to this conclusion? I've been saying that for almost two years now.
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Also, it really isn't fair to call I6 an issue, since it didn't actually really add anything.
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From just the CoH PoV Issue 6 added 3 new zones as well as a new villain group (Arachnos). I'm not 100% certain but didn't it also add the gladiator badges as well?
Taser I don't entirely disagree with you.
However, the malaise felt by some players stems from a restlessness in lack of variety.
Essentially in City of you can street sweep for experience and advancement or do missions for experience and advancement. Now...there are a wide variety of ways to accomplish these goals to be sure.
However, there are other games out there where you can do other things in your downtime like crafting and so on. Here, in your downtime, you can hunt badges and enter player vs. player combat.
Honestly, I think Inventions will make or break the long-term viability of City of Heroes/Villains. The system has the potential to offer limitless customization, tweaking, exploration, design that would keep a person like me, that loves the discovery aspect of the game, happy forever.
It will also appeal to the hardcore PvPer as they tweak their builds to the nth degree of perfection.
The casual player will also like going "Hey look I invented something!" 
At its most basic, the game is a time sink from daily life; adding a variety of subsets of tasks to the time sink may well make things much more interesting.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
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It's reasonable to assume that the playerbase is going to want more of anything and everything. It's also reasonable to assume that doing anything will piss off someone. The argument that the playerbase doesn't know what it wants might be valid to an extent, but you're painting a picture of the dev team dashing about wildly trying to fill every tiny demand and it just isn't the case.
At the end of the day they'll do what they want and we can't say nothing about it. For the most part, with perhaps 1 or 2 exceptions the only changes that have been made to the game that have been as a direct result of player demands have been quality of life changes.
This particular thread and conversation seems to be about the percentage of those changes that have made their way into the Issues. Costumes, bug fixes, content, so on. I would find it very surprising if you could argue that the majority of the playerbase would complain about more of any of those. The majority of the complaints directed at the dev team have been about powerchanges and nerfs, and those are things over which we have had little to no input.
What I'm reading in your post is that because the devs aren't able to please everyone they're basically screwed. It's just simply not the case. They're not the victims you're making them out to be.
The playerbase is also, as a whole, not the whining, out of control, temper tantrum throwing baby that you're painting it to be.
(I can hear you spooling up from here...)
Now, there are a number who are but they're not the entire playerbase. In some ways the devs are screwed no matter what they do, but again, not to the extent that you're describing.
Bottom line is that more of anything is largely appreciated by the majority, no matter what it is.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
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So tell me, Deathstrike, what does the playerbase want right now?
More costume pieces? Well people are complaining that the devs are wasting their time on those.
More high level content? Well people are complaining that they'd rather run alts or low levels than focus on a loot-heavy end game.
More missions? People say it's all the same mission, just different enemies and textures now.
Faster updates with fewer bugs? Do you really think cutting down on the development time would mean less bugs? Do you really think that making a new issue every 3 months wouldn't drastically cut back on the amount of content each issue had?
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well im not deathstroke but to address this:
a. Id prefer more costume pieces with every issue and sometimes in between. (and didnt that poll by cricket/lighthouse, have new costume pieces in 1st or 2nd place? as for what poeple really like?)
b. I want both high level content and mid level content. theres a lot of 1-25 content.
c. missions are fine, except when you spend an hour looking for that 1 glowie in the room you checked 5 bajillion times.
d. more updates but less in size. ( faultline in sept/oct., safegaurd missions coulda been out in oct, and vet rewards soince that has been the main hold up coulda came out in november/early december.
d. could be feasible, giving new content every couple months, the player base would have been really happy if the safegaurd missions and faultline were separated from the vet rewards and each other. we would be able to experience all these new features while waiting for the other content.
but the devs have always tied everything into one patch, and when 2/3 of it is done, they cant release it because that 1/3 is tied into the code. and stalls EVERYTHING. you think they would have learned by now.
oh well. I still give props to the devs, i think we still have the best development team, with SWG and WOW coming in DEAD last. CO* ftw!!!
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However, the malaise felt by some players stems from a restlessness in lack of variety.
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It doesn't help that we're in the most frustrating stage of the issue release cycle.
1. New issue teasers are announced. There are interviews. Hints are dropped. Clues are given. People go crazy with anticipation. They watch the Test server for signs of the new issue.
2. The new issue hits Test. Whee, novelty! Explosion of excitement.
3. People settle into the new issue on Test, grumble a bit about bugs, and begin to anticipate the fun of playing with it on Live. Meanwhile, people who don't go to Test are learning about what's coming and getting excited about it.
4. (Where we are now.) The initial euphoria of finding out what's in the new issue has waned, and impatience sets in as people wait for it to go live. There's no point in getting excited about the next issue down the line, as it's too far away. The longer the wait goes on, the more frustrated people get.
5. The issue finally hits the live servers and everyone rejoices. Soon after the excitement has begun to pass, teasers for the next issue are announced and the cycle begins again.
This stage in the cycle is the most trying, because the issue is here and yet it's not. We're waiting for the other shoe to drop.
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4. (Where we are now.) The initial euphoria of finding out what's in the new issue has waned, and impatience sets in as people wait for it to go live. There's no point in getting excited about the next issue down the line, as it's too far away. The longer the wait goes on, the more frustrated people get
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This is it, really. This is really the only place where the whole "No matter what the dev team does they're screwed" is a valid statement.
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
[ QUOTE ]
But is what you want feasible?
[/ QUOTE ]
World of Warcraft seems to handle it just fine.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But is what you want feasible?
[/ QUOTE ]
World of Warcraft seems to handle it just fine.
[/ QUOTE ]
*rolls his eyes*
Brother of Markus
The Lord of Fire and Pain
The Legendary Living Hellfire
Fight my brute!
[ QUOTE ]
World of Warcraft seems to handle it just fine.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, here's what was asked for:
[ QUOTE ]
We want bug free updates with lots of new stuff to do, and new costumes options added every now and then, and we don't want to have to wait six or seven months at a time to get it.
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Lots of new stuff to do? In WoW? Roffle.
New costume options? In WoW? Double roffle with maple syrup.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But is what you want feasible?
[/ QUOTE ]
World of Warcraft seems to handle it just fine.
[/ QUOTE ]
*falls out of chair laughing*
Oh man my poor keyboard.
BWAHAHAHAHA
�Alas, regardless of their doom, the little victims play!� - Thomas Gray
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5. The issue finally hits the live servers and everyone rejoices. Soon after the excitement has begun to pass, teasers for the next issue are announced and the cycle begins again.
[/ QUOTE ]
Props to the devs for helping the situation by already teasing I9 (which is still 6 months off) before I8 comes out. Is there even going to be a Winter Event this year? Cuz I've read as much about I9 in the last month as I had for the Halloween event with not a frosty chirp about anything else outside of the inevitably ubiquitous I8 coverage.
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Is there even going to be a Winter Event this year?
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Yes, there is.
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But is what you want feasible?
[/ QUOTE ]
World of Warcraft seems to handle it just fine.
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I'll join the *chuckle* chorus on this. WoW, even with all it's filthy lucre pouring in, is still hitting that post-honeymoon period (like every other MMO) where the design team has run out of stuff that was too unfinished at launch to implement. They're scrambling to recycle as much as possible in order to just be plain tardy with content updates instead of 'what the heck am I paying a monthly fee for?' kind of tardy with content updates.
There really isn't a game studio in the market currently that shows that it can juggle multiple MMO projects at the same time well. (I'm not saying that they can't juggle - just not very well. 
) And yet they all are.
*sigh*
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Some incremental changes can roll out without extensive testing, but I promise you there's a whole process that gears up to test an "issue"
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You pinky promise?
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