[ QUOTE ]
OK, it's time to basically lay it out there. Moment of Glory is an awful power. Bad. It sucks. So you're saying, prove it. OK here goes.
WHAT IS MOMENT OF GLORY?
Moment of Glory is the Scrapper and Stalker Regeneration set's ninth power and is available at level 38. Moment of Glory has the following effects:
1.0 endurance buff
status protection of -17+ MAG
180 sec duration; 1000 recharge
9.5 Scale resists to all but Psi (71.25%)
9.5 Scale defense to all but Psi and Toxic (71.25%)
Full Heal at the beginning; then damaged by 75% of current HP
-heal/regen for the duration of the power
Crash to -regen for 15 seconds
Please note that the resistance and the HP drop cancel each other out, except for Psi damage which you take proportionally 400% more damage.
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OK EG, WHAT'S SO BAD ABOUT THAT
MoG has the following problems:
<ul type="square">[*]Teammates buffs and heals have little to no use
Right now under MoG, MoG is almost the only thing you can rely on for three minutes. That is direct contravention of a stated developer goal to encourage teaming. Basically unless your teammates have a Psi or positional defense buff or a Psi resist buff, you have little to no need of their defensive buffs.
[*]MoG makes you much more vulnerable to Psi and Toxic damage
Under MoG you have only 25% of your HP and basically no protection at all to Psi. You have toxic resistance but no defense since Toxic defense does not exist.
This makes you vulnerable to the following groups (With thanks to Sarrate):
Knives of Artemis - Caltrops will kill you, plus the girls have an acc bonus (more on that below)
Carnies - No psionic defense, 25% hp, no healing. The bosses will one-shot you.
Rularuu - Near auto-hit powers that debuff defense.
Devouring Earth - Quartz will basically let them auto-hit you. Swarms deal toxic damage (you have no defense vs toxic)
Nemesis - If Vengeance is stacked, it will blow through MoG; Some Nemesis robots use toxic gas
Hydra - They deal Toxic damage, again, no defense.
Arachnos - They have Psionic and toxic damage dealers aplenty
Hamidon - Has such honkin high to-hit, you get one shot
Falling Damage - Laugh all you want, but you can't regenerate that 50 damage you just took. Keep in mind Since you only have 25% hp to begin with, you bascially took 50*4 damage.
Rikti - Psionic damage from Mentalists. Rikti Monkeys use psi and emit toxic gas when they die. Dying to an underling makes the baby Scrapper cry.
CoT Crystals - The red damage crystals are auto hit. Whee
Malta - Gunslingers have extremely high accuracy
[*]Moment of Glory suffered because of the NPC accuracy changes
You'll note in that list above that I said that some NPC have high accuracy. Well, normally that wouldn't be a problem since MoG's defense is so high. But after Issue 7's changes, NPCs of higher level and rank get accuracy bonuses instead of to-hit bonuses. This means that where they used to have a 5% chance to-hit, many mobs have higher bonuses going up to 10%.
While that's low, since you have no ability to heal and have 25% of your HP, you're stuck with the HP that you have. Which leads to our next point:
[*]Moment of Glory lasts too long
MoG lasts three minutes. However, even against NPCs you're strong against, they can wear you down. After consistent testing, in minute 2 of the power, you start getting into trouble. I have only infrequently been able to survive a sustained assault under MoG.
[*]Moment of Glory is demonstrably worse than two-four lucks
Under the current system, it takes approximately 12 lucks to rival the defense of MoG. However, that ignores that you still have access to all your powers under those lucks where you don't under MoG. So a Regen can get by with two lucks every minute (6 for the duration of MoG) and be well and truly more resilient. In the 40s you have 20 inspiration slots. Devoting half your tray to lucks isn't a bad use of space for a regen who has little to no need of CaB or respites.
[/list]
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IS MOMENT OF GLORY ANY GOOD?
Well, yeah. There are a few limited circumstances where MoG is a "defensible" choice to use. They are:
1) Against, purely Sm, Le, elemental and energy NPCs. The classic example used by the power's defenders is the Malta Sapper. Well, no doubt it works against them.
Only downside is that lucks work better.
2) All heals, inspirations, buffs, teammates, etc. are down.
For a good player this is more theorhetical. I've tried to get into the situation without luck, but if you pay absolutely no attention to your resources and get yourself in spot where you can't wait the 30 seconds for Recon to recharge MoG can be useful.
Well that's it.
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REBUTTALS:
Danmit EG! You Regen are already the bestest, most uberest set in the game. Now you're telling me you want a useful Tier 9 too!!
Well yeah. The current design of Regen is irrelevant. Because of the nerfs of I3-I5, ED had little effect on Regen while it smacked Invul and SR hard. But I don't believe intra-AT balance means that Regen "deserves" a gimp 38 power. That's not fair either. Every power should be enjoyable and any power that putatively intends to protect you should not act as a DEBUFF to your protection.
Pfft. At least you don't have Dark Armor's 38 power! 
That's right, and I support any change to Fire Aura's or Dark Armor's 38 power. In fact I would suggest that after getting up, those powers should be even stronger than Unstoppable or Elude since they require a death. But again, just because someone is in a similar boat doesn't mean we shouldn't fix MoG.
FIX BOTH!!
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Got to agree with you totally Geko. MOG is SOOOOO situational as to be worthless. Hell the power would be improved a great deal if they even took away the drop down to 25% health. I mean keep the -regen but start you at 100% health. Hell even then it would improve the power a bit.
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The shining world of the seven systems. On the continent of Wild Endeavour. In the mountains of Solace and Solitude there stood the Citadel of the Time Lords. The oldest and most mightiest race in the Universe. Sworn never to interfere. Only watch...[/SIZE][/B]
Well, some people have characters that are designed to use whirlwind effectively...despite everyone saying it sucks.
Of course, the difference is that whirlwind is something we have to build out entire character around using, and it's something you have to choose to take (it takes 3 power picks minimum to get it) and it's not a primary set power....
(little hint, I tried it with a scrapper at level 45...turns out it's an amazing defense for blasters... so why do so few blasters take it? I mean,90& of fire tankers and dark scrappers take acro and jump is arguably less useful than speed...)
so I figure MoG is kind of like 'whirlwind' in that, if you really want to use it, you have to redesign your character around using it. and your tactics. and your chosen enemies. and your playstyle
Okay, MoG is slightly less useless than defiance.... but look at it this way, at least it makes the decision about which powers to skip to get a good pool power easier.
Or we could have it renamed to "Momentary Lapse of Reason" so that it fits in better with those occasions where we use it - and wished we hadn't.
Matthew 5:14-16
Earl: Running ain't a plan; running's what you do when the plan fails.
I actually took MOG after reading this thread, its great information and let me know ahead of time that this power isnt an Unstoppable or Elude type of power. I took it on test and liked it, so far it hasnt made me regret it but I have not yet been to the 40+ side and this opinion may change. I usually know what I am facing when I flip the switch thanks to this thread so deaths have been few so far.
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MoG kicks [censored] if you -KNOW- how to use it. I have a 40 MA/regen scrapper, and MoG has -never- failed me. Noticing that it has failed a -50- tells me that the -50- doesnt know how to use it.
End of discussion.
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despite it not failing you wouldnt you still want improvements? ive used MoG a few times, and lived, before i respeced out of it and the idea of finishing one group in about 15-20 secs with 25% health then waiting the rest of the 180 secs for it to shut off isnt fun. sure you could attack another group but lets say every enemy hits you once, then your either dead or almost dead depending on their level. So really what im trying to say is running away can be more effective if your goal is to level faster. thats just my experience.
at 43 I still like the power aside from it's 3 minute timer and long recharge. If it were dropped to 45 seconds active with a shorter timer I'd be blasted happy.
I took MoG to give it a try. My only hang up with it is that, like I have read, it goes against the idea of the regeneration power set, that being to heal. Yeah Yeah cool animation.
I have found it to be very situational, depending on what enemy I am facing. Problem being I face most of the enemy listed in the first post.
[ QUOTE ]
Knives of Artemis - Caltrops will kill you, plus the girls have an acc bonus (more on that below)
Carnies - No psionic defense, 25% hp, no healing. The bosses will one-shot you.
Rularuu - Near auto-hit powers that debuff defense.
Devouring Earth - Quartz will basically let them auto-hit you. Swarms deal toxic damage (you have no defense vs toxic)
Nemesis - If Vengeance is stacked, it will blow through MoG; Some Nemesis robots use toxic gas
Hydra - They deal Toxic damage, again, no defense.
Arachnos - They have Psionic and toxic damage dealers aplenty
Hamidon - Has such honkin high to-hit, you get one shot
Falling Damage - Laugh all you want, but you can't regenerate that 50 damage you just took. Keep in mind Since you only have 25% hp to begin with, you bascially took 50*4 damage.
Rikti - Psionic damage from Mentalists. Rikti Monkeys use psi and emit toxic gas when they die. Dying to an underling makes the baby Scrapper cry.
CoT Crystals - The red damage crystals are auto hit. Whee
Malta - Gunslingers have extremely high accuracy
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Most of the time i use this power is essentially in long lasting battles as a last resort or panic "got nothing to lose" button. So my suggestion would be, to keep it in the theme of regeneration:
keep the heal but to about 75% and lose the HP drop, keep the defence/resistences, keep the
-healing but allow regen and decrease the duration that it lasts.
Chances are you will probably still die seeing as you would have already used DP and IH combo, followed by running out of greens or healer(s) not keeping up (or already dead) with damage, but it would be more in the idea of regeneration then what it is atm. I feel this would give the Wow!! effect from onlookers and by more a Moment of Glory then a oh crap oh crap oh crap.... but that is just my opinion.
Only draw back is those dame Paragon Protectors will get the same effect. 
Cat: "Better to live 5 secs as a tiger then a lifetime as a worm"
Rimmer: "Arrh but who ever heard of a worm skin rug"
"Anyway I attack Nemesis" - Blue Crow
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Fav. Book: The Atheist belief system
I have been reading this post and wanted to air an option in the MoG debate.
1. MoG is an "OH @#$&" power? TRUE
2. MoG does not fit the idea of Regen set? TRUE
3. MoG has pro and con aspects? TRUE
4. MoG could use a fix (notice not NEEDS)? TRUE
5. MoG is not a DEV proioity? TRUE
So with these truths, I see 2 solutions. I don't see anyone saying they Love MoG as is. (duration too long etc...) I say one of 2 options.
1. MoG and Force of Nature swapped.
This would be mutually benefitial to both Blasters and Regens. Although it satisfies a majority of the complaints with MoG, FoN is basically Unstoppable, in which case, it doesn't make it that much a Regen power.
2. Rework the way MoG works.
In this case I purpose a REAL Moment of Glory.
a. MoG instantly heals you to full health and doubles your HPs.
b. No defense, damage or endurance boost, but increased To Hit (Power can be slotted with Recharge Reducers, and To Hit Buffs ONLY)
c. Now you have more HPs, you hit and therefore kill faster (Scrappers mission in life), and you continue to Regen.
d. Also, think about Instant Healing in this case...Twice the hit points means that Instant healing works twice as good. This makes Instant Healing (another Regen debated power) VERY appealing as your level 28 power as your 38 level power will now make you a Super Regen.
e. MoG and Dull Pain cannot be used in concert. If MoG is activated while Dull Pain is active, it would only count your base hit points as Max. This would only really matter when you HPs are topped off and then Dull Pain and MoG are both applied.
f. Activating Dull Pain while in MoG would only apply the "heal" portion of Dull Pain and not a Health increase. What all of this does is to ensure that you NEVER have more than 2 times your max HPs, thus keeping it a balanced power. (If not, a Regen would have close to 4300 HPs at level 50)
f. One minute duration. To offset the HUGE Regen of this power, make it a "Moment" of Glory. Keep recharge as is.
Now you have a level 38 power that stays online with the other level 38 powers and has a "Regen" feel to it.
The "numbers": (Data from Hero Planner)
1. Dull Pain at 50 takes a Scrapper from 1300 HPs to 2100 HPs
2. New MoG at 50 takes a Scrapper from 1300 HPs to 2600 HPs
I don't think this would over power Regen; and due to the fact that to really rock you need to hit Instant Healing too; this change to MoG would be a balanced alternative to it's current state.
BALANCE IS A NERF
Liberty Server
@Energy Aura and @Ill Conceived on Global
Han Solo: [laughs] Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good BLASTER at your side, kid.
*bump forever*
If this doesn't stay right under the stickies, then your job becomes clear.
Bump it until a Dev responds. Ridiculous that they have yet to do so.
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*bump forever*
If this doesn't stay right under the stickies, then your job becomes clear.
Bump it until a Dev responds. Ridiculous that they have yet to do so.
[/ QUOTE ]
They've responded to both me and Stupid Fanboy and probably others.
Short version: No approval to change MoG. No further updates. Keep the faith.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
How is losing health a moment of glory? Normally it would be going crazy and killing everything in sight while taking massive amounts of damage, which only succeeds in making you crazier as you tear through everything. Blood is gushing out of you but you don't feel it at all because your adrenaline is in overdrive.
I think you should be able to heal yourself whilst in MoG. I mean honestly, getting killed by f*ing clatrops? That's stupid.
I'd like to see MoG and FoN switched, I mean that would kill 2 birds with one stone. It would give defiance a reason and Regen a new lease on life.
~the poster formally known as GI_Shmo~
Champion- Always BS/WP Scrapper, Difficult Bots/Dark MM
Infin- Peace Pirate PB
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[ QUOTE ]
*bump forever*
If this doesn't stay right under the stickies, then your job becomes clear.
Bump it until a Dev responds. Ridiculous that they have yet to do so.
[/ QUOTE ]
They've responded to both me and Stupid Fanboy and probably others.
Short version: No approval to change MoG. No further updates. Keep the faith.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really? I did a double check by "Threading" the thread, and noticed no red names.
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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*bump forever*
If this doesn't stay right under the stickies, then your job becomes clear.
Bump it until a Dev responds. Ridiculous that they have yet to do so.
[/ QUOTE ]
They've responded to both me and Stupid Fanboy and probably others.
Short version: No approval to change MoG. No further updates. Keep the faith.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really? I did a double check by "Threading" the thread, and noticed no red names.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're not going to, either. But EvilGeko is correctly describing the situation as it currently exists for improving MoG.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
I have been reading this post and wanted to air an option in the MoG debate.
1. MoG is an "OH @#$&" power? TRUE
2. MoG does not fit the idea of Regen set? TRUE
3. MoG has pro and con aspects? TRUE
4. MoG could use a fix (notice not NEEDS)? TRUE
5. MoG is not a DEV proioity? TRUE
So with these truths, I see 2 solutions. I don't see anyone saying they Love MoG as is. (duration too long etc...) I say one of 2 options.
1. MoG and Force of Nature swapped.
This would be mutually benefitial to both Blasters and Regens. Although it satisfies a majority of the complaints with MoG, FoN is basically Unstoppable, in which case, it doesn't make it that much a Regen power.
2. Rework the way MoG works.
In this case I purpose a REAL Moment of Glory.
a. MoG instantly heals you to full health and doubles your HPs.
b. No defense, damage or endurance boost, but increased To Hit (Power can be slotted with Recharge Reducers, and To Hit Buffs ONLY)
c. Now you have more HPs, you hit and therefore kill faster (Scrappers mission in life), and you continue to Regen.
d. Also, think about Instant Healing in this case...Twice the hit points means that Instant healing works twice as good. This makes Instant Healing (another Regen debated power) VERY appealing as your level 28 power as your 38 level power will now make you a Super Regen.
e. MoG and Dull Pain cannot be used in concert. If MoG is activated while Dull Pain is active, it would only count your base hit points as Max. This would only really matter when you HPs are topped off and then Dull Pain and MoG are both applied.
f. Activating Dull Pain while in MoG would only apply the "heal" portion of Dull Pain and not a Health increase. What all of this does is to ensure that you NEVER have more than 2 times your max HPs, thus keeping it a balanced power. (If not, a Regen would have close to 4300 HPs at level 50)
f. One minute duration. To offset the HUGE Regen of this power, make it a "Moment" of Glory. Keep recharge as is.
Now you have a level 38 power that stays online with the other level 38 powers and has a "Regen" feel to it.
The "numbers": (Data from Hero Planner)
1. Dull Pain at 50 takes a Scrapper from 1300 HPs to 2100 HPs
2. New MoG at 50 takes a Scrapper from 1300 HPs to 2600 HPs
I don't think this would over power Regen; and due to the fact that to really rock you need to hit Instant Healing too; this change to MoG would be a balanced alternative to it's current state.
[/ QUOTE ]
/signed
I don't understand why they gave us a Tier 9 with def and res when the rest of the set has none. It's not BASED around def OR res, so why give us this USELESS power? It's called Regen for christ sake. I love having NO def and NO res, but being able to heal like a madman. IH FTW! 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*bump forever*
If this doesn't stay right under the stickies, then your job becomes clear.
Bump it until a Dev responds. Ridiculous that they have yet to do so.
[/ QUOTE ]
They've responded to both me and Stupid Fanboy and probably others.
Short version: No approval to change MoG. No further updates. Keep the faith.
[/ QUOTE ]
Really? I did a double check by "Threading" the thread, and noticed no red names.
[/ QUOTE ]
About every three months or so, the extreme idiocy that is MoG wears on me and I rant to Castle in PM and get the same answer. I will not share exactly what he told me, because it's a PM. But the short version I posted has all the salient points.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Well, I can't possibly know that out of the blue, nerd! :P
But, I'd still like to see someone address all the things people have mentioned in this thread and give a counterpoint and rationalisation against them.
Hey, a guy can dream, right?
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I can't possibly know that out of the blue, nerd! :P
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless you have permission, you are expected to accept the word of EvilGeko as revealed truth on matters of Regen.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
EG,
I've honestly never understood your drive to get MOG fixed. You know these devs and their ways as well and more so than most of us.
You know that if they fix MOG, then IH, FH and QR will probably be "adjusted" accordingly.
Look at SR and Inv as examples, and I've stated this before, a good tier9 means crappy performance without the tier9.
I do wish you luck in this crusade, but don't be shocked if you get what you want coupled with getting a whole lot of what you don't.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
*bump forever*
If this doesn't stay right under the stickies, then your job becomes clear.
Bump it until a Dev responds. Ridiculous that they have yet to do so.
[/ QUOTE ]
This same MoG thing comes up all the time, and this post is no different than the others. The crowd is split on MoG but EG is a little more passionate about hating it and stating it's broken. EG wants MoG to work in a way that he wants to use it, instead of adjusting himself to use MoG in the way it actually works.
There's many powers in everyone's AT that used to work one way or another and if they were changed (or nerfed) to work differently than they do now, they think they're broken.
Don't expect a Dev to respond, they're just as burned out on this subject as the rest of us are.
[ QUOTE ]
Don't expect a Dev to respond, they're just as burned out on this subject as the rest of us are.
[/ QUOTE ]
Can a developer of a game really afford to get "burnt out" on a subject that so many (even if its a divided community; which I think is a skewed assumption and would really be more along the lines of people who don't want it looked at to be a vast minority) feel passionately about?
[ QUOTE ]
EG,
I've honestly never understood your drive to get MOG fixed. You know these devs and their ways as well and more so than most of us.
You know that if they fix MOG, then IH, FH and QR will probably be "adjusted" accordingly.
Look at SR and Inv as examples, and I've stated this before, a good tier9 means crappy performance without the tier9.
I do wish you luck in this crusade, but don't be shocked if you get what you want coupled with getting a whole lot of what you don't.
[/ QUOTE ]
MoG is broken. There simply shouldn't be powers like MoG in the game. Revive is not worth the slot IMO, but it's not broken. It does exactly what it says it does. Resilience isn't necessarily worth it's slot. But it's not broken.
That's why I care about MoG. MoG needs to be scrapped in its current form and brought back into the set in a fashion that's reasonable.
Hell, if they just turned it into a self-Fortitude without the defense I'd be cool with that, but then I'd have to hear more complaining about to-hit buffs.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I understand, EG, I really do.
But you understand what I'm saying, too, I think.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
I understand, EG, I really do.
But you understand what I'm saying, too, I think.
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course. But you have to understand, that I just want MoG not to be broken. It could still suck. An extra build up with a heal attached would make me happy as a clam.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
wait wait wat so your telling me THE best scrapper secondary, and the only one to get an auto power better than stamina, and the only one to get a god like mode at 28 should also get the same priveledge as all the other lackluster sets that get a true god mode?????
how about dark??
jeebus you regens are so pissed about your previous nerfs your blind that this will never change because it IS balanced. instant healing works fine as a semi god mode, and with all of regens other redeeming qualities IMO it doesnt even deserve MoG it should have the rez as the tier 9 and some other auto similar to resilience but +def instead.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MoG kicks [censored] if you -KNOW- how to use it. I have a 40 MA/regen scrapper, and MoG has -never- failed me. Noticing that it has failed a -50- tells me that the -50- doesnt know how to use it.
End of discussion.
[/ QUOTE ]
You've only had it for two levels. Noticing how small your relative samples size is shows me that you really don't have enough experience with the power to tell anybody else how to use it.
End of discussion.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you, SF and Darkblade are being unfair. I mean, this poster has had MoG for two levels where he fought the Council, Freaks, Nemesis, and CoT. That's a lot of meaningful experience. I've only had MoG for two YEARS and tested it against nearly every villain group...what the [naughty word for coitus] do I know?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.