Of course I'm looking at it from the view of a single Dominator on a team.
I'm a single Dominator.
Unless you're going to start chaining Dominators together or giving players with level 40 Doms another account, there's no reason not to consider the lone Dominator in the team. It's just flat-out not fair to say we're only going to be a good addition to a team when they're two of us.
You have to see where I'm coming from with this, right? Saying two Dominators is great is well and good, but what about when there's only one? And you're that one?
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Second point: What other AT is only useful 45% of the time? If the only thing we bring to a team is the use of Domination, then we are indeed only useful 45% of the time in optimal conditions.
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Much like Blasters, Tankers, Scrappers, Corruptors, MMs, Brutes, etc, Dominators need a team to reach full capacity.
Speed Boost, AM, even Hasten will help ya there.
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Yes, they need a team, but the point is that they start from a MUCH lower point, and their full capacity is MUCH lower than their peers.
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Second point: What other AT is only useful 45% of the time? If the only thing we bring to a team is the use of Domination, then we are indeed only useful 45% of the time in optimal conditions.
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Much like Blasters, Tankers, Scrappers, Corruptors, MMs, Brutes, etc, Dominators need a team to reach full capacity.
Speed Boost, AM, even Hasten will help ya there.
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Actually, I don't see how many of those ATs need a team to come to full capacity, especially in the 40-50 game, and especially with the heros where the APPs do a much better job at filling in weak spots than our PPPs look to do. I'd take Psionic Mastery from the Controller PPPs or Force Mastery from the Blaster's in a heart beat since those are the two Hero ATs that we seem to be a mish-mash of.
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
Even with Psi and FoN they are going to need
A) Perception buffs
B) Healing
C) Fortitude
D) Mez protection
E) Slow/Port protection
etc. Nobody is saying the PPPs are as good as the hero APPs. We are simply stating that dominators are now strong enough to be utilized on good PvP teams, where before they were a handicap.
I don't recall any AT yet that I wasn't able to hold eventually in RV when domination was up. And with speed boosts, that is a good percentage of the time.
As far as two doms being better than one, well damn you should be happy. Before I7 they would have been considered 2 gimpy handicaps for the team, now they are an asset.
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He wasn't saying Blasters and Corruptors teaming up. He was saying that while those points can be applied to those two ATs, Blasters bring supreme damage and higher HP, while Corruptors seperately bring very impressive damage and the ability to self heal or self buff.
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As I said, Doms bring the most reliable Toggle drops in the game (64% on the high attack). They are 2% shy of being 3 times as effective as an /EM Blapper now. In addition, many of the skills are good san Domination. Domination doesn't make the AT, its the boost in overall performance that really makes it shine. Doms contribute when they don't have Domination, they basically take over when they do 
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Second point: What other AT is only useful 45% of the time? If the only thing we bring to a team is the use of Domination, then we are indeed only useful 45% of the time in optimal conditions.
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I'd answer quite well, since that is the, somewhat less obvious, situation for Blasters. Blasters have devestating alpha strikes because of 2 powers, Aim and Buildup. These powers are what enables a Blaster to 2 shot squishies and you can have both them going about 40% of the time.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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You have to see where I'm coming from with this, right?
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I understand where you are coming from. I've been there many times.
I guess what I was trying to say, was what PeteX put much more succinctly: we now have a role on a team whereas before we were just a handicap that sucked healing time away from everyone else. There is a reason for Doms to be prime target now, and an equally good reason for Corrs to try and keep them alive. I was just using my experience to illustrate how multiple Dominators on a team can really ramp up that team's ability to take the enemy out of the fight.
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that many doms throwing fast-cycling mag 4-6 (whatever it is) holds will cripple anything - mez protection, BFs, CM be damned.
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Yes, this is the point of Doms now. It's brute force. With Domination (and Power Boost if you've got it) we can drill through any mez protection. I was standing next to a Scrapper last night as he popped 1... 2... 3... 4 Break Frees before he finally escaped a hold.
With mezzing power like that, we tread a dangerous line in PVP. It's well known that these devs don't think being perma-held in PVP is fun. They have taken so many steps to prevent it, from limiting durations to adding BFs to adding suppression. So, try to look at Doms as dangerously close to crossing the line of "making PVP not fun" for those we are mezzing.
If we got any more improvements at this point, I firmly believe the devs would call a timeout and nerf our control in PVP, which is the last thing we want.
I think the reference to Blasters is a really good one for several reasons (I have always thought that a Dom plays most closely to a blaster style wise).
The Blaster inherient Defiance is actually of use less than Domination, which you might say is a nod toward Dominators, however when the inherients were added to hero AT (or officialized like the Crits with Scrappers), there was no nerf to the Blaster with the thought that it was balancing with Defiance. It seems like we should be in the same catagorie. Instead of counting on our inherient, use it as a boost for certain occasions.
Just some thoughts inspired by the remark about Blasters.
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
At this point I'd like them to switch or Primary and Secondary so that Control wasn't our focus. Then it wouldn't be such a big issue with holds being such a all or nothing issue for Doms. But that is wishful thinking.
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
I would love for Doms to do more damage honestly. Without Domination's boost our attacks are sad.
Pets (and in particular, Imps) are screwing up the curve and keeping us from getting decent damage though. And we all know how useful/smart those Controller set pets are in PVP. *eyeroll*
Yep. I still think our damage is too low, but then I think defender damage is too low as well and have tired of fruitlessly lobbying for more. Controllers spank us for damage. Oh well, they have spanked everyone for a while (at least some builds).
And yeah, I think doms need a bit of an hp boost, since we are melee-oriented and can get (essentially) 1-hit often.
Do I think the patron pools are good? Not really. The resistance armor will be nice, that's about it.
However, at the end of the day, I'm happy that doms are useful to PvP teams now. Pets suck in zones, but so do many powers/sets.
I wouldn't be surprised if our control was eventually nerfed in PvP, but our hp and dmg come up a little. I am expecting nerf posts when more doms start dominating more than hospital space. 
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that many doms throwing fast-cycling mag 4-6 (whatever it is) holds will cripple anything - mez protection, BFs, CM be damned.
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Yes, this is the point of Doms now. It's brute force. With Domination (and Power Boost if you've got it) we can drill through any mez protection. I was standing next to a Scrapper last night as he popped 1... 2... 3... 4 Break Frees before he finally escaped a hold.
With mezzing power like that, we tread a dangerous line in PVP. It's well known that these devs don't think being perma-held in PVP is fun. They have taken so many steps to prevent it, from limiting durations to adding BFs to adding suppression. So, try to look at Doms as dangerously close to crossing the line of "making PVP not fun" for those we are mezzing.
If we got any more improvements at this point, I firmly believe the devs would call a timeout and nerf our control in PVP, which is the last thing we want.
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Well i dont get it. I dont have power boost. Dom is only up sometime. most times I'm out there iwth one modest duration modest recycling single target hold trying and failing to stack it-sometimes even on the squishies who have acro, buffs and BFs for when I do finally get enough stacked. I'm basically a target until I can get dom up, and on live now thats a beatch! Fingers crossed for the increased ability to build the dom bar coming in i7.
Yeah I'd love if they nerfed our max damage on Domination a little bit and then added it to our base damage. I don't think its unreasonable.
Anyone know how many Domination-based holds it take to break through CM/Clarity? I know CM can be stacked, but I'd like to know how many holds it takes to get through one CM application. Without Domination it seems pretty much impossible, but it might be easier with Domination up.
our dmg sucks for 31 levels then gets close to decent with pets
just move pets up to lvl 12 or 18 already, ugggg
To get through clear mind I think it is 8 standard holds for a Dom or 5 if domination is running.
This is based on the assumption that clear mind is a magnitude 15 mezz resist, standard Dom holds are magnitude 2 and mag 3 with domination up.
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This is based on the assumption that clear mind is a magnitude 15 mezz resist, standard Dom holds are magnitude 2 and mag 3 with domination up.
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Err, first Dom's have the magnitude of holds as Controllers. Some people call this 2 and some call it 3. Domination _doubles_ the magnitude of mez effects. A Stalker running Practiced Brawler takes 3 holds to break PB without Domination while with Domination it takes 1.5 (ie one Dom with Domination and one without it) to hold through PB.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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Well i dont get it. I dont have power boost. Dom is only up sometime. most times I'm out there iwth one modest duration modest recycling single target hold trying and failing to stack it-sometimes even on the squishies who have acro, buffs and BFs for when I do finally get enough stacked. I'm basically a target until I can get dom up, and on live now thats a beatch! Fingers crossed for the increased ability to build the dom bar coming in i7.
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Bear in mind that all of the comments here are about what's on test server, ie I7, _not_ what is on live.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
Please, please don't balance Dominator damage primarily with pets. Keep in mind, Mind Control has no pet. It'd be like balancing Psionic Assault by raising Dominator's melee modifier, only on a larger scale.
Any damage increase needs to come in a fashion that is widely accessable to -everyone-, IE, ranged attacks.
Edit: Also, in case anyone didn't know, Controllers/Dominators have Magnitude 3 Holds. That takes down an LT in one hit; to take down a boss, you need a magnitude 4 Control. Usually the ST immobilizes and Mesmerize. Controllers have a chance to critical on a Hold to bump it up to Mangitude 4.
If an EPP Hold can Hold Lieutenants, but is stopped by Acrobatics, then that leads me to believe they're between magnitude 2 and 3 (and Acrobatics has a comparable amount of protection at higher levels, being able to stop those holds but not stop a Controller hold).
yeah fire imps are the main "damaging" pets, simply because that's all they do
the others have lots of control abilities to help you, hence why the pets are in your primary (control) set, instead of the assault set
i agree assault needs help, but so do our primary powers. the aoe immobs are crap w/out containment, and the aoe holds are crap because of containment, which we dont get
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Pets (and in particular, Imps) are screwing up the curve and keeping us from getting decent damage though.
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Allow me to dismiss this myth right now.
I have my lvl 40 Fire / Eng Dominator. And yes Imps deal very nice damage. However, there is one thing most of you are overlooking. Something that I hope the devs take into account. Dominator's are NOT at their fullest potential till they have Domination qued. Imps dealing massive damage means less damage my Dom can dish out. Ultimately it means longer I have to go before my Domnination bar is charged to full. I suppose in a sick & twisted way its a trade off, but still. Nice to know that as soon as I summon my imps I just shot myself in the foot as far as charging my Domination bar goes. 
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Nice to know that as soon as I summon my imps I just shot myself in the foot as far as charging my Domination bar goes.
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Also nice to know that the instant you summon them while fighting a held, one-shot-capable blaster, they will preferentially run 50 feet away from you to attack a boss that will slaughter them all in 60 seconds.
yeah that AI to ignore held enemies works ok in PvE, but must suck in pvp
it'd be nice to be able to turn that option off (to ignore held/sleeping/etc enemies)
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yeah that AI to ignore held enemies works ok in PvE, but must suck in pvp
it'd be nice to be able to turn that option off (to ignore held/sleeping/etc enemies)
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Oh I never knew they'd do that. Guess its too much to ask, to have the pets help build our domination bar. Then maybe our AT name would actually fit what we do... seems to me that brutes should be called "dominators" 
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My 50s: Zenshin (stkr), TrueBluePhoenix (dom), Zen'th (blstr), Foul-Play (blstr), Zojitzu (scrpr), ZyoXinZhou (scrpr), Protonic Avenger (def)
Living on Virtue, Vacationing on Justice, Visiting Pinnacle, Getting started on Victory & Infinity
Ok first off skimming through I didn't notice anyone mentioning the IOP effects on doms. Mez protection Items of Power?
I have 1 40 Ice/Ice dom, and in PvE I feel I didn't need a buff. Drop my ice slick, throw out a few single target holds, drop a glacier... I can barely solo on villianous, but in a team I more than carry my own weight. I can't deal damage worth a spit, but I don't see that as my job.
I don't see the recharge rate effecting me much at all in PvE. the recharge was never my limiting factor. I don't have the endurance to fill the bar in less than 5 minutes. Not a big deal.
In PvP I'm totally useless. My friends all play it, I try and join them... Utterly useless. The hit buff in PvP supposes I'll live long enough to land 11-13 hits in PvP. Doesn't happen all that often. I'm far to soft a target. Tried playing in RV, wasn't even humorous. Exercise in masachacism.
The toggle drop issue doesn't come up much.. Generally if I'm meleeing something with toggles I'm dead in 6 or 7 seconds... Don't live to notice if I've dropped toggles.
Truth is that the tankers and scrappers I fight in Sirens Mez me all the time, I cannot mez them.
On the off chance I do catch the stray enemy squishie in a hold, I usually run of endurance before they run out of hit points. Need to pop blues to kill a held "victim"
So I will repeat what I've seen 20 pages of here... Its a step in the right direction, but not nearly a big enough step.
Bonus damage in PvP?
Mez Resistance in PvP?
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Second point: What other AT is only useful 45% of the time? If the only thing we bring to a team is the use of Domination, then we are indeed only useful 45% of the time in optimal conditions.
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Much like Blasters, Tankers, Scrappers, Corruptors, MMs, Brutes, etc, Dominators need a team to reach full capacity.
Speed Boost, AM, even Hasten will help ya there.