I'm very happy. Dominators have pretty much been universally buffed in all parts of the game that matter.
Thanks, Devs!
The game ends at 50.
SmilegasmDo not ever give Mind Control a pet.
We need more control sets without pets.My characters are not "toons".
They are all project characters, though.Global chat @Lxndr My servers: Defiant, Liberty, Pinnacle, Virtue
Not sure which thread is the right one for this, but...
When the PPPs were first listed we noticed a high level of overlap with existing dominator sets (pet, AoE damage, end drain).
Now we have numbers and find these repeats are weaker than our originals - much longer recharges.
This seems unbalanced - either there should be no repeats or the repeats should be balanced against our existing powers. Bile Spray (for instance) should have numbers similar to Fire Breath. The pets should be perma.
As it is now we wait until our 40s to get worse versions of powers we picked up earlier (much earlier in some cases). This makes no sense.
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The overall changes to toggle dropping are universal, not Dominator specific. The percentages have been lowered, not removed. There's no more 100% chance to drop a toggle anymore.
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QFT.
The way people are talking you'd think Doms were singled out and had the ability completely taken away.
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Well, it was two ATs who were really hit by this. Blasters and Dominators. Out of the two, Dominators are the ones hurt by this the most, while Blasters are the ones who pissed off people with this the most.
Which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it?
Also, since somebody asked, the Dominator Toggle Droppers. This is what they -used- to be.
Psionic Assault-
Mind Probe (ST Melee Attack, 100% to drop 1)
Psychic Shockwave (25' PBAE Melee Attack, 100% to drop 1, used to make up for an otherwise horrible set)
Ice Assault-
Ice Sword (See Mind Probe)
Greater Ice Sword (See Mind Probe)
Fire Assault-
Incinerate (Melee ST DoT, 100% to drop 1)
Blaze (Short range Blast, 100% to drop 1)
Thorn Assault-
Skewer (See Mind Probe)
Ripper (Small Melee Cone, 100% to drop 1)
Energy Assault-
Bone Smasher (See Mind Probe, also has a chance to disorient)
Total Focus (See Mind Probe, 100% chance to disorient)
I keep hearing reports that the first of these sets of two powers don't even drop toggles at all anymore. That'd be a hilariously huge nerf for Dominators, by rendering them unable to drop toggles before Warburg.
Anyone who doesn't know this should realize that a Dominator has 70-80% of a Controller's base hold duration, and has no buffs or healing to bring to a group. This means when he can't Control something, he can only plink at it with his 'Assault' powers.
A Dominator in PvP without Domination is shaping up to be functionally useless, due to the prevalience of status resistance (and Break Frees) combined with the fact that their best damage is melee, and they have Low HP, no defense, and no status resists. A Knockout Blow from a Tanker holds us while we can't hold them. Same for a variety of control-bonus'd powers from other sets.
Like every Blaster Ranged pool but Energy, for example.
And yet they added to an already overpowered Hurricane for Controllers. I really wish some of the devs played the game more instead of blindly changing things for the worse for all, and better for one AT.
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Melee attacks do 7.7% more base damage than ranged / aoe attacks.
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Understood, but the reward for going into melee was toggle dropping (at least for PvP...IMO) and as tested:
" Toggle Dropping - I only have Ice Sword in my build, my tier 2 toggle drop power. A controller running 3 toggles allowed me to test it out on him, thank you Balshor. End result, Ice Sword did not drop a single toggle on him after thwacking away at him for about 2 minutes or so. Another Dom, Nouveau Paris, went at him with Mind Probe and Psychic Shockwave. Mind Probe also did not drop any of his toggles. Psychic Shockwave dropped one toggles every three or four hits. Check with Nouveau for a more precise count if he has one
7.7% isn't crap if your dead! I understand active defense (before anyone goes there) but we need to be able to drop defense/resistance if our active defense is going to make a difference especially in the PvP enviroment where everyone and there mother has BF's available to them . Not one toggle drop in two minutes is INSANE!
Have you looked at the end cost for our shield... 1 end per second, OMG! 
i disagree, we need better CONTROL
im fine with dom dmg being sub-par without domination, but we need more like 125% control than controllers, because we dont get buffs/debuffs
if we're holding enemies, we can kill them at our leisure
but we can barely hold enemies
btw a mini-containment would also be nice, and allieviate many ppl's complaints of damage
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Assuming the numbers over in this thread in Guides are more or less correct, Defenders and Dominators both do approximately 65% of Blaster damage for ranged attacks, while Dominators do 65% for melee (compared to Defenders 55%), which does give me some hard numbers to back up my feeling on this.
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Actually, if you read that table more closely, you find that Dominators do 70% of Blaster damage for melee attacks, compared to 55% for Defenders. So if you're just looking at base damage, then Dominators seem to have the clear advantage.
The problem is, you CAN'T just look at base damage. Back in CoH Beta, Defender damage was lowered from 75% to 65% because it was being shown that with their damage buffs, certain Defenders (mainly Rad) could do ALMOST as much damage as a Blaster. (Around 98%) With that much damage and defenses as well (the Rad could debuff incoming to hit and damage) the question was asked what use Blasters had on a team. The response of the devs was to drop base damage for Defenders to 65%, maintaining them at the intended "medium" damage but ONLY if you included their ability to buff themselves.
Dominators, on the other hand, have no ability to buff themselves. I can't give an overall value for what a Defender's buffed damage is supposed to be, but I believe Siphon Power gives a 30% boost to damage. And that's on a Controller, which according to another table in the post you made, is 1.00 compared to a Defender's 1.25. So for a Defender using Siphon Power the damage boost should actually be 37.5%.
Of course, Kinetics is one of the most powerful offensive Buff/Debuff sets out there, so I think we can probably call this the MAXIMUM "base" damage for a Defender, and it comes out to 89.375%, almost 90%. By comparison, a Corruptor with 75% damage would get the same 1.00 damage boost as the Controller so that's 75%*130%=97.5%, which is awfully close to Blaster damage. (As well as the 98% estimate I stated above for Rad)
The only thing Dominators really come close to is the Controller boosted damage, which is 55%*130% or 71.5%. This is more than Dominator ranged damage, but comes close to their melee damage. Note that Masterminds, as well, have 55% damage but their debuffs are a little weaker than Controllers (only 0.75) and so their damage is 67.375%.
And to make matters worse, even if Dominators DID have a way to boost their damage (and the Thorns and Fire Secondaries do) it's only 0.85 effectiveness. A Blaster's Aim is 1.25 (on those tables again) so even if you gave a Dominator Aim, it would only boost damage by 42.5% (the same as a Corruptor) instead of 62.5%. And Defender-style team buffs wouldn't fare much better.
Now, Buff/Debuff sets vary wildly, and as I said this is likely the maximum numbers. In practice, especially with sets that have very few damage buffs, or even none, like Force Fields, the damage will be closer to the base. But nearly every Buff/Debuff set has a damage buff or resistance debuff they can maintain at least part of the time. And Tar Patch I am pretty sure is 30% as well, I have tested it also. So that number may be, if not absolute, very close to the buff a Defender, Corruptor, Controller or Mastermind can expect to get.
Anyway, my suggestion would be to raise Dominators' base ranged damage to 70%, and then raise their melee damage to either 80% or even 90%. That would keep them fairly weak overall, so Corruptors wouldn't feel threatened (not that the actual damage of a Dominator could come close to a Corruptor) but allow the Dominator to be a "Scraptroller" and do some real damage to foes it holds. I'd also like to see a damage boost in every Secondary, not just a few, and the Power Boost power could also be added to the sets that don't have it. (Maybe even moved into the Primary)
A Dominator will never do as much damage as a Defender (unless it's a Force Field Defender) and if the devs believe otherwise they are obviously fooling themselves. The best we can hope for is to do more damage than a Controller, and get that massive boost when we finally get Domination.
Ok, so after mulling it over I wanted to make some suggestions bout possible Dominator changes. First off, I think I understand why this may be problematic for the Devs now, as most of the thoughts I had involved significantly changing powers themselves, which at this stage of the game probably isn't that doable. So here are some other options I think might work ok...
Option 1:
Increase Dominator hp to Blaster levels
Remove the damage increase from Domination
Increase Dominator base damage
Add a defense buff to Domination
Option 2:
Increase Dominator hp to Blaster levels
Increase modifer for Dominators on all power pools so we can actually get worthwile amounts of defense or resistance out of things like maneuvers or tough.
Eliminate the recharge timer on Dominate, let the bar be the limiting factor.
Option 3: (the power alteration option)
Elminate the negligable buff/debuff power in most of our secondaries (chilling embrace, etc...)
Give all secondaries a resistance or defense toggle armor like the ones you put in our PPP's.
Overall, I don't think there is any one change that is going to fix Dominators unless they actually replace some of the powers in each of the primary or secondary sets. The current Domination change is an ok start, but it's just a start. Without some tweaking to hp, or base damage, or the presence of some protection, we're just meat when we're not in Domination mode.
Based on testing and numbers from others, all I am going to say is this;
Either the Devs are going to have to roll back the toggle-drop, make other changes, or deal with the fact that they have now made Dominators ABSOLUTELY USELESS.
I am well past pissed off, as I have been waiting till I7 so that I can get to 50 and respec my Dom into a proper PvP build. Now there is none.
Obviously the Devs have never, ever played a Dominator or looked at their own datamining. Again.
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Based on testing and numbers from others, all I am going to say is this;
Either the Devs are going to have to roll back the toggle-drop, make other changes, or deal with the fact that they have now made Dominators ABSOLUTELY USELESS.
I am well past pissed off, as I have been waiting till I7 so that I can get to 50 and respec my Dom into a proper PvP build. Now there is none.
Obviously the Devs have never, ever played a Dominator or looked at their own datamining. Again.
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Oh there is one. It just involves a large ranged attack chain and hasten instead of melee attacks now. At least the snipes have a use now. >.>
I dont mind the detoggling issue at all. Look lets be real about the detoggling , if you played a set that runs toggles it was way to easy for someone to drop every tggle you had.
I am happy that domination now builds faster too.
what I would also like to see is some effectiveness given to AOE holds. Atm they are pretty useless in pvp. I have tactics and every hold I have is slotted with acc and hold duration yet I pop off an AOE in pvp and nothing. Would love to see those powers increased a little. Especially mass confusion. As mind doms dont get a real AT pet (yes we get the patrons , not the same as a specific pet from your AT) mass confusion could use a little tinkering so it is effective , at least as effective as any pet from any AT .
Lastly I would love to see a slight increase in some HP's. Would be nice since there are so many powers that negate holds and our damage isnt that spectacular if we had a increase in HP's so we can at least return fire so to speak.
other then that Im happy with the changes
UFC Undisputed PS3 Camp Ground Zero
Toggle Drop %
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Dominator: Bone Smasher: 5% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Total Focus: 64% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Incinerate: 5% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Blaze: 64% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Ice Sword: 5% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Greater Ice Sword: 64% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Mind Probe: 5% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Psychic Shockwave: 64% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Skewer: 5% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Ripper: 64% for 1 Toggle
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Note that our late game toggle droppers should have the highest percentage out of all the toggle droppers left in the game; once Castle has finished up those tweaks.
Phantom Rose: Ill / Kin / Psi
Soleau: Ice / Icy / Ice / Core: Ice / Fire / Pyre / Wind / Eclipse / Flare / Corona
---------------
Solo Space
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Frankly I think that the domination boost should be lowered by 50% and have the standard attacks boosted in damage to compensate. The domination bonus of increased duration, mag and endurance refill is enough without making it the sole way for a dominator to deal damage. Give it a minor damage boost rather than a major one and tip the scales for the more attacks.
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I've never agreed with Tal-N more.
Okay, I said I wouldn't reply, but just a couple points here, since you did make quite a reasonable post that I just don't totally agree with:
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The problem is, you CAN'T just look at base damage.
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No, and I didn't. The paragraph right after, I said, yes, Defenders seem to have an advantage overall in damage output for ranged attacks... and though you're right I didn't count buffs and debuffs, I didn't for the simple point I made later, which is: Dominators aren't Defenders. Defenders may be able to output significantly more damage per attack once you take their secondary effects into account (though not Emp or FF and much less of a degree in TA), but Dominators get more secondary-effect powers that damage via their primary and do totally different types of secondary effects (well, not 'totally'; a lot of Dom secondaries seem to do -recharge and there's some -Def over in the Thorny thing, but basically).
That having been said:
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Anyway, my suggestion would be to raise Dominators' base ranged damage to 70%,
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I could get behind this. It's enough of a boost to help the fact that they ought to be focussing more on damage without being a large enough change to really significantly alter balance.
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... and then raise their melee damage to either 80% or even 90%.
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I could get behind 80%, for the same reason; 90% seems a little high even considering the relatively few melee attacks Doms get.
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I'd also like to see a damage boost in every Secondary,
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And I could definitely get behind this; it doesn't make sense that only 2 of 5 sets have it.
One drawback of the internet is how it has trained so many people to think that one day is a long time.
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Dominator: Bone Smasher: 5% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Total Focus: 64% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Incinerate: 5% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Blaze: 64% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Ice Sword: 5% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Greater Ice Sword: 64% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Mind Probe: 5% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Psychic Shockwave: 64% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Skewer: 5% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Ripper: 64% for 1 Toggle
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Instead of 5% and 64%, it should be 50% and 95%.
Let Dominators be the one scary AT that can drop toggles reliably! Maybe it will give our opponents a reason to, I don't know, pay attention to us when we're not in Domination mode.
I've been PVPing with my Dom since November, and never once did I think 100% to drop 1 toggle was overpowered considering how painfully long it takes to actually kill someone. (If my blue bar doesn't run out or they don't get bored and log first that is.)
My Mind/TA Controller can blow people to smithereens with just Levitate and Mesmerize as attacks though, thanks to 3x Containment.
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Dominator: Bone Smasher: 5% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Total Focus: 64% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Incinerate: 5% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Blaze: 64% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Ice Sword: 5% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Greater Ice Sword: 64% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Mind Probe: 5% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Psychic Shockwave: 64% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Skewer: 5% for 1 Toggle
Dominator: Ripper: 64% for 1 Toggle
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Instead of 5% and 64%, it should be 50% and 95%.
Let Dominators be the one scary AT that can drop toggles reliably! Maybe it will give our opponents a reason to, I don't know, pay attention to us when we're not in Domination mode.
I've been PVPing with my Dom since November, and never once did I think 100% to drop 1 toggle was overpowered considering how painfully long it takes to actually kill someone. (If my blue bar doesn't run out or they don't get bored and log first that is.)
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Agreed. How was Dominator Toggle Dropping overpowered again?
Well, looking at these very minor improvements I can't say Doms status as the least popular AT is in any jeopardy. 
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Oh there is one. It just involves a large ranged attack chain and hasten instead of melee attacks now. At least the snipes have a use now. >.>
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WHAT ranged attack chain?
WHAT snipes?
WHAT hasten?
I work with an Ice/Ice Dominator. Yes, Ice/Ice, THE Toggledropper. AoE immob, AoE sleep, AoE hold, Hold, two ranged, two melee. My other option is a build with AoE confuse and slow instead of the sleep/hold/slow.
I don't have a snipe. I don't have a ranged attack chain.
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Note that our late game toggle droppers should have the highest percentage out of all the toggle droppers left in the game; once Castle has finished up those tweaks.
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Well that's just brilliant; hang on, I need to pour some more sarcasm onto that statement.
64% toggledrop out of a power that I have to be in MELEE to use. And 5% out of the power that I use the MOST - Block of Ice. WHERE is the benefit? If I'm in range for GIS, I have ONE choice. Hit fast, slow, and RUN. No, I don't get to stick around and finish them off. I can't, because I WILL die. The end.
What the hell were they thinking? "Let's balance out the Enhancements in Siren's, but take away all hope of functionality for an entire Villain AT that's already struggling?" Because that is exactly what they have done.
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Dominators Domination inherent ability will charge much more quickly when fighting PvP.
Domination recharge time reduced from 300 to 200.
Player Pets should no longer attack the lava in the Batzul mission.
Dominator Psionic Assault Drain Psyche now accepts Accuracy enhancements. The power was intended to accept them originally, but was unintentionally left off.
Dominators: Domination inherent ability will charge much more quickly when fighting PvP targets. Each attack from the Assault secondary power sets adds a bonus of 8 points toward filling the Domination bar over the normal value.
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Yippe flippin skipee...now if only I could build domination fast enough to use it more than once per mission this might actually be useful.
Or maybe if I could ...oh I dunno. Kill things inside of 2 minutes.
Its pretty sad when it still takes 4 attacks with +3 SOs to kill some -12 mobs.
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Let's not call a good thing bad. Domination is useful. I easily get it off twice in a mission, and with a reduced recharge time, I'm less nervous about using it more often. Being able to get it off with more regularity in PvP is extremely useful. ONCE Domination is off, we do more damage than Blasters and have longer control than Controllers.
I still think we could use a damage buff, a few of the sets need a look-through and I think blaster-level HP would be reasonable, but that doesn't mean we should dump the Domination changes.
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I think you're on the right track there. There are some needed changes, and this is my spin on them:
- Keep the recharge and PvP changes, these will easily help Dominators come to even grounds on PvP after some other changes I will suggest.
1) Increase Dominators' damage up a bit higher then Defender 'Ranged' levels, but not Blasters'. Then lower the Damage increase on Domination so that when you shoot Domination off, your damage is increased to just slightly above Blaster level.
2) Increase Dominators' Health up to 90% of a Blaster's health (if it's not already there). This being because Doms will draw aggro with their assault, but at least have some protection in the form of control.
3) As Domination increases, give a point of Mag protection for each 20 points of Domination, recieving at most a grand total of 5 points Mag Protection. When you hit Domination, your Mag Protection at that point will be retained for Half the duration of Domination.
Those are just a few suggestions, so feel free to add on there.
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Melee attacks do 7.7% more base damage than ranged / aoe attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]I never thought it was really safe to play melee with a Dom, but this list shows Doms do more damage in melee than ranged. Suppose I should have gone with /fire instead of /thorn.
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Doms do more damage in melee than ranged. Suppose I should have gone with /fire instead of /thorn.
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Only if you like scrappers and blappers non-stop one-hitting you. Melee is suicide for Doms.
Well after PvP alot last night I can say that I'm please with the overall changes to Doms. We still have 'issues,' but I feel this has been a step in the right direction.
However, I do question why we should even bother giving any attack a 5% chance to drop toggles? That seems rather worthless to me. Perhaps you could remove the toggle drop chance entirely and just buff the damage? Considering that its even more risky to get into melee range now (without domination running and since the toggle drop chance is so low) I think an increase in damage for our melee attacks is reasonable.
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From my perspective, a Dominator should play somewhere between a Controller (whose primary sets are similar) and a Defender (whose secondaries are similar). They're never going to be a primary damage dealer, but they should be able to do a reasonable damage output, combined with holds and debuffs.
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This is where I have my problem. I see Dominators as psuedo-Tankers. While they have the primary as a passive defense system (being on in the background just waiting to be attacked) and a damage dealing secondary, Dominators have an active defense system (having to mez opponents for their own safety) and a damage dealing secondary. We both handle agro for a team, albiet in different ways.
Yet, with our lower hp and lower damage, we are at a distinct disadvagteage if our "all-or-nothing" defense system fails. These changes presented by the devs are welcome (I don't want to give the impression of anything else.), but they only help to a certain level. In PvE, we still can't lockdown everything and we only need one critter that can mez us and send the team into a very bad situation (which happens alot when you have to get up close and personal to melee).
Actually I'm happy with the Dom changes along with the toggle drops. We still have the best toggle dropping capabilities in the game as it stands.
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The overall changes to toggle dropping are universal, not Dominator specific. The percentages have been lowered, not removed. There's no more 100% chance to drop a toggle anymore.
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QFT.
The way people are talking you'd think Doms were singled out and had the ability completely taken away.
But still I fear and still I dare not laugh at the madman!
One man's "meh" is another man's "zomg". - Leatherneck
Procrastination meter coming soon.