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Anyway, as long as we are flaming amongst ourselves over minor details, the devs aren't likely to pay us any heed -- and rightly so.
FivefifteenA
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Oh, I think the devs ARE paying heed, and have every intention of tweaking things.
It will just be a little longer though. Say...about as long as it took them to even think about upwardly-tweaking Archery and Trick Arrow. Er, sorry, make that just Trick Arrow. Kinda.
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... doms really need to present a united front to the devs in saying that we need changes.
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That's not going to happen when many players are content with their doms. I personally feel that my dom rocks in PVE, and when I fail, I can usually identify a specific mistake that caused the failure. It may be that mistakes are easier to make with a dom, or that the consequences are harsher than they are with other ATs. However, most of the time, I don't make those mistakes, and my dom performs well.
PVP is another story, but I can easily see why many PVE-only players are entirely happy with their doms. Heck, I rarely even use the inherent because I rarely feel a need for it except for end-boss spawns, and often not even then. So I'm not surprised that the I7 change emphasizes PVP rebalancing.
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As long as the dom board presents a happy world where everything is wonderful and naysayers get flamed ....
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Don't exaggerate.
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I personally feel that my dom rocks in PVE, and when I fail, I can usually identify a specific mistake that caused the failure
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I dont disagree. My Fire / Eng dom ROCKS in PvE... SOLO. As we have stated many times over on the Dominator Forums: the general CoV crowd frowns upon teaming with a Dominator. Mainly cause they are ill informed of what we are capable of. We have sort of a bad rep on Live.
The fact is the vast majority of any combination of Primary / Secondary from any CoV AT will outperform all but the best Dominators (players not FOTMs, lmao like a dom set would be FOTM).... UNTILL Domination is up and running. Then (and only then) do we as an AT truely shine and ppl take notice. However, most of us have gotten to the point where we sit on a fully charged Domination bar. This isnt helping us one bit. Why? Simple, ppl arent seeing what we are truely capable of. Now if Domination recharged quicker AND it was easier to charge the bar.... then less Dominators would sit on a full bar and would be more inclined to actually use thier Inherent. Eventually ppl would start to take notice of what we are capable of.
Ofcourse the other option is to keep Domination as is and just boost the AT as a whole, as others have stated.
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If you want to pvp then make a toon to pvp in the zone you prefer. Don't pick a toon that blooms late.
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No disrespect, but hell with that. I don't go into the game thinking 'I want to PvP in Recluse's Victory, I'd better make a PvP-specific "toon" to PvP with.'
I don't play "toons", I play characters. The CoV character in whom I have invested a significant amount of time is a level 40 Mind/Psi Dominator. There is no reason on God's earth why I shouldn't be able to take that character into a PvP zone and fare reasonably. No, I am NOT saying I want to pwn the map lulz or whatever the newfangled hip lingo is that you crazy cats are speaking these days. I am saying that no character class deserves to be the welcome mat that Dominators are. The first thing that other ATs do is wipe their feet with them.
We are testing. We are helping develop this. Having done a significant amount of PvP in Siren's Call - enough to become a dominator that, while she does not pwn, at least does not altogether suck - I can honestly say that I know what I'm talking about. The current changes, welcome as they are (except the toggle dropping, naturally) are just not enough.
Take the increase to Domination building by attacking players. Looks good on the surface, but frankly, if you could attack players often enough to build Domination reliably without getting pounded like a tenderised steak, you wouldn't need Domination in the first place. No Dominator that I know builds Domination by attacking players, even in PvP.
Dominators do well in PvE, because mobs are stupid. Mobs also do not have the kind of status resists you find in even a token handful of heroes in a PvP field. In PvE, I can activate Mass Hypnosis, suck the psyche out of a whole group of foes, then begin to waste them one by one. I never have to worry about Endurance. That's not going to happen in PvP. Again, in PvE I can Confuse to my heart's content; that's not going to happen in PvP either. Doms are viable in PvE, though they could do with boosting. They are a cruel joke in PvP.
The answer is NOT to dismiss people's legitimate concerns and tell them to make some more PvP-suited 'toon'. PvP is an extension of the PvE game, not the other way around. The characters that we have invested our time in ought to be able to hold their own, at least, in PvP (build and enhancement concerns aside).
Let us build damage as we build Domination, and that'll be a step in the right direction.
we do okay in PvE with sputs of being good
i think the purple patch is what really hurts us the most in PvE, and we should get longer durations, maybe even have criticals like scrappers (the higher lvl the enemy is compared to you, the more dmg/duration/etc you can do)
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As we have stated many times over on the Dominator Forums: the general CoV crowd frowns upon teaming with a Dominator.
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In a recent thread, several people noted that this seems to be a server-specific or even forum-specific thing. I don't have problems finding teams on Virtue, and I actually turn away more team requests than I accept. And it's not just the inherent that gets "That was awesome!" compliments. I've gotten much praise simply from a well-timed TK, Mass Hypnosis, or Terrify. I also seem to get a fair amount of praise simply for playing a scraptroller, as people don't seem to expect a successful squishy on the front lines. About the only time I don't feel important is on huge teams, but I find that's true with most characters I play.
Anyway, while I certainly wouldn't mind PVE buffs -- more hit points would be nice -- I'd much rather see additional changes to make us less fragile in PVP, whether it's making our active defenses more viable (like the I7 change) or giving us some passive defenses.
But the reason why there isn't a unified front is because there isn't universal dissatisfaction. In some environments, both the doms and their teammates are happy. And I suspect that after the I7 change, many of the skilled PVP dommers may even be content with the AT for PVP, especially among mind/psi players.
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As long as the dom board presents a happy world where everything is wonderful and naysayers get flamed ....
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Don't exaggerate.
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If he worded his posts differently, I'm almost certain he'd have few problems with people flaming him. I'm taking the same stance as him and the only person I see "flaming" me is Ditzy_Blonde, and she isn't really flaming me.
My main problem in PvE is in larger groups. When I solo I can lockdown 2 or 3 critters easily. It's when the groups get large and there are multiple bosses where I have trouble. I can either lay back and try to chain hold the group, which usually means I am not truly doing the best job I should, or jump in the middle of the mob. If I jump in, it leads to me face-planting. Hopefully I have mezzed the mob enough so that my teammates live to rez me. If I lay back, I am neglecting the stun component of my build (Grav/ENR) and others will face plant leaving me exposed. Shortly thereafter I face-plant.
in smaller groups or solo, I have no problems. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that larger teams will be needed in the 40+ content.
So we could use the help not only for PvP but in )large group) PvE as well.
Just my 2 Infamy.
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Then how come we are not all pulling together?
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Because repeatedly waving a "doms suck" banner isn't the way to get people who actually *like* dominators and playing dominators to rally to your side.
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
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My main problem in PvE is in larger groups. When I solo I can lockdown 2 or 3 critters easily. It's when the groups get large and there are multiple bosses where I have trouble. I can either lay back and try to chain hold the group, which usually means I am not truly doing the best job I should, or jump in the middle of the mob. If I jump in, it leads to me face-planting. Hopefully I have mezzed the mob enough so that my teammates live to rez me. If I lay back, I am neglecting the stun component of my build (Grav/ENR) and others will face plant leaving me exposed. Shortly thereafter I face-plant.
in smaller groups or solo, I have no problems. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that larger teams will be needed in the 40+ content.
So we could use the help not only for PvP but in )large group) PvE as well.
Just my 2 Infamy.
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I agree, it's both a Combination of the Purple Patch and the sheer multitude of Bosses in every spawn on 8 person teams. The feeling that multiple MMs make us useless also comes up - the fact that there are so damn many of them doesn't help.
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Then how come we are not all pulling together?
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Because repeatedly waving a "doms suck" banner isn't the way to get people who actually *like* dominators and playing dominators to rally to your side.
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In the first place, my view of doms is considerably more nuanced than you indicate. But whatever.
In the second place, if you like doms now, you will love I-7.
FivefifteenA
In large groups, I normally find either that the team is an unstoppable zerg, or it's a chaotic mess beyond my ability to help. Either way, I don't feel particularly important as an individual, but nor do I feel like I'm leeching or dragging the team down. Honest, I'm really happy with PVE so far, and my mistakes don't seem to hurt my dom any more than my mistakes hurt my MA/regen scrapper (which is very similar to my mind/psi in play style).
It's only in PVP that I feel hopeless sometimes, and even then I attribute much of the problem to poor teamwork. There have been lots of times where I have successfully isolated and locked down a hero, but I don't have the backup to finish them off before reinforcements can arrive. With the domination change, hopefully I won't need backup, although frankly, I believe that better teamwork would be a much better "buff" for my play style than any game tweak.
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Then how come we are not all pulling together?
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Because repeatedly waving a "doms suck" banner isn't the way to get people who actually *like* dominators and playing dominators to rally to your side.
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In the first place, my view of doms is considerably more nuanced than you indicate. But whatever.
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If you'll note, I didn't say a single word about your view of dominators.
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
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Then how come we are not all pulling together?
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Because repeatedly waving a "doms suck" banner isn't the way to get people who actually *like* dominators and playing dominators to rally to your side.
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This is the OTHER reason he gets flamed, lol. A lot of us don't actually think Doms suck, we like doms but we all think we need a bit more power.
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Then how come we are not all pulling together?
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Because repeatedly waving a "doms suck" banner isn't the way to get people who actually *like* dominators and playing dominators to rally to your side.
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This is the OTHER reason he gets flamed, lol. A lot of us don't actually think Doms suck, we like doms but we all think we need a bit more power.
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And why do you think it is necessary to "flame" someone merely for expressing an opinion that may differ slightly from yours?
FivefifteenA
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Then how come we are not all pulling together?
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Because repeatedly waving a "doms suck" banner isn't the way to get people who actually *like* dominators and playing dominators to rally to your side.
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This is the OTHER reason he gets flamed, lol. A lot of us don't actually think Doms suck, we like doms but we all think we need a bit more power.
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And why do you think it is necessary to "flame" someone merely for expressing an opinion that may differ slightly from yours?
FivefifteenA
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We're a fiesty group when it comes to people talkin about us >.>
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Then how come we are not all pulling together?
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Because repeatedly waving a "doms suck" banner isn't the way to get people who actually *like* dominators and playing dominators to rally to your side.
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This is the OTHER reason he gets flamed, lol. A lot of us don't actually think Doms suck, we like doms but we all think we need a bit more power.
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And why do you think it is necessary to "flame" someone merely for expressing an opinion that may differ slightly from yours?
FivefifteenA
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you call out, annoy, troll and harrass folks. Its not an opinion we're angry with.
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Then how come we are not all pulling together?
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Because repeatedly waving a "doms suck" banner isn't the way to get people who actually *like* dominators and playing dominators to rally to your side.
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This is the OTHER reason he gets flamed, lol. A lot of us don't actually think Doms suck, we like doms but we all think we need a bit more power.
[/ QUOTE ]
And why do you think it is necessary to "flame" someone merely for expressing an opinion that may differ slightly from yours?
FivefifteenA
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We're a fiesty group when it comes to people talkin about us >.>
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If by "feisty" you mean "rude" and "abusive," then yes you are. If you want people (i.e. the devs and a broader cross-section of players) to take you seriously, and to actually begin to read the dom board, then that has to change.
FivefifteenA
I think Sadako summed things up pretty damn well in her last post, so I'm just gonna add a few stray thoughts here to try and push things along with brainstorming.
It strikes me that on a fundamental level every AT in CoX succeeds through one of two basic methods, either by outdamaging the enemy with a strong offense or by outlasting them with a strong defense. Every AT in the game can be put in one of these to categories easily.... except for Dominators. Therein lies our basic problem. We're not the only hybrid AT in the game, but the other hybrids (Defenders, Corruptors, whatever) still fall clearly into one of those two categories. Dom's, while having both controls and attacks, don't really do one better than the other, and can't really rely on either for survival. Sure, we can succeed at the low to mid PvE game. But as Sadako pointed out, that's mostly because mobs are dumb and susceptible to a lot more of our abilities than other players (sleep and confuse being excellent examples).
The high end game and PvP are entirely different stories though. Even high level EB's have the purple triangles of doom and we are not going to out damage them even with Domination popped. And players.... yeah, I think a long list of issues just came to all of your heads.
Now a lot of people are calling for changes to our secondaries and our damage, which is one way to go. However, I also understand if the devs are hesitant to do that, any change to an AT's damage scale is going to take serious consideration and testing after all. So, with the previous ramblings in mind, rahter than make us offensive characters with greater damage, what about changing our primaries and giving us greater defense?
Oh, and I don't necessarily mean give us buffs/debuffs. What I mean is our primaries are all pretty uniform (single target hold, aoe hold, ST immob or sleep, aoe immob or sleep, some sort of soft control cone or summonable, etc...), and frankly they were all universally designed to synergize with the defender sets. To work with Dom's and our secondary attack sets, I think they need a re-design. Hell, a lot of people have said how corr's and some defenders can stack single target holds a whole lot better than we can and it's because of the way their primaries, secondaries, and app's work together.
Wow, I am sooo rambling now. Ok, I'll skip the nonsensical road by which I got here. Short version, forget adjusting our secondaries. Change some of the powers in our primaries so we actually can dominate things without being so dependent on our click inherent. Get rid of those immob and sleep powers that for Dom's really do absolutely nothing. Replace them with greater control or defensive measures, which can really help distinguish one primary set from another and make each Dom unique. Maybe give one set a second single target hold so they can stack like a champ, give another some sort of aura or armor, hell give Ice benumb and infrigidate (they so belong in the hands of an Ice dom and I don't even play one). It's our primary control sets that I think are our real problem. They just weren't designed for Dom's (with the exception of Plant and it is so noticeable). They were desgined for Controllers, and as so many people have enjoyed pointing out... we're not trollers, and we don't play like them.
That's it, ending nonsensical ranting now.
Heh, quick edit for one last statement... Having played around for some hours in RV I had the chance to see all of the signature villains make an appearance. Ghost Widow, held up to us in beta as the examplar of Dominators, clearly proclaimed by a red name then to be Mind/Psy, showed up in RV to actually be a Dark/Dark Corruptor. Scirocco? Yeah, he is in fact a Corr as well so it wasn't just a mix up. From what I saw in RV when each villain came out, there is no Dominator among the signature villains. And whether the devs think I should read into this or not, I do in fact take this as an indictment of Dom's, and an indication that they are so significantly underpowered that to throw one as an AV against players would just be too easy a win for the players. Ok, now end rant.
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Then how come we are not all pulling together?
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Because repeatedly waving a "doms suck" banner isn't the way to get people who actually *like* dominators and playing dominators to rally to your side.
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This is the OTHER reason he gets flamed, lol. A lot of us don't actually think Doms suck, we like doms but we all think we need a bit more power.
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And why do you think it is necessary to "flame" someone merely for expressing an opinion that may differ slightly from yours?
FivefifteenA
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We're a fiesty group when it comes to people talkin about us >.>
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If by "feisty" you mean "rude" and "abusive," then yes you are. If you want people (i.e. the devs and a broader cross-section of players) to take you seriously, and to actually begin to read the dom board, then that has to change.
FivefifteenA
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See, this is the kind of post that gets you flamed, lol.
Wow wow wow.
Everyone lets try to keep this civil. How embarassing would it be to have this thread locked for flaming?
Official Thread for Dominator Changes: LOCKED
There goes our 'voice.'
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you call out, annoy, troll and harrass folks. Its not an opinion we're angry with.
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Would you care to point out an example of me doing that, or is this an example of "wishing makes it so"?
FivefifteenA
You're still talking to him? Do you remember the thread where he argued about the definition of majority for 5 or so pages? I respect Five's total, utter and blind willingness to defend any point he's ever made no matter how ill thought out, but I respect it the same way I respect the crazy necrotic bacteria colonies in the mouths of komodo dragons: from a distance, and with no interest in experiencing it myself.
edit: good call fish, that would be funny, and kinda typical. 
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You're still talking to him? Do you remember the thread where he argued about the definition of majority for 5 or so pages? I respect Five's total, utter and blind willingness to defend any point he's ever made no matter how ill thought out, but I respect it the same way I respect the crazy necrotic bacteria colonies in the mouths of komodo dragons: from a distance, and with no interest in experiencing it myself.
edit: good call fish, that would be funny, and kinda typical.
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Just another day on the dom board -- oh, this isn't the dom board.
This is the dom community displaying it's disfunctionality to all those who might not ordinarily see it.
I imagine they are watching in fascinated horror . . . or disgust.
FivefifteenA
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Increased Damage
Increased charging of Dom bar (maybe 4pts per attack in PvE)
Increased control duration
Increased mag or perhaps the controllers 2nd inherent (the ability to crit on a hold)
Any of these would have been viable solutions for PvE... we got none.
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All of these could be easily fixed with the following changes: (I'll repeat them just in case people skiped to the end):
* Change all the self-buffers to be combined Power Boost/Aims. So Energy and Ice would keep Power Boost as it is now and gain a slight increase in Accuracy and Damage (say a 25%/40% increase). Fiery Embrace would get a 25% Accuracy increase and effect all damage (maybe add the excess as Fire damage). Plant's Aim would get a slight increase to secondary effects (again 25% seems fair since they would have a greater plus to ACC and DAM). This only leaves Psionic Assualt, since they don't have a PB/Aim per se. But they could get a minor "Mire effect" from Drain Psyche to go along with the bonus they recieve (makes sense since they have to be in melee range to use this power, give them a real whammy of a power.)
* Remove the Burst powers at level 38. Make Psychic Shockwave the standard for the new powers. High damage PBAoE with some specials would be much more helpful than a high damage single-target Ranged attack (which seems more like a moderate melee in use.)
* As Domination bar fills, we get an increasing amount of mez/defense. This should top out at just under what a Stalker has. I wouldn't even mind if we lost this protection when we fired off Domination. (This is something new that I thought of. My apologies if someone suggested it befre and I am not giving credit where it's due.)