Official Thread for Trick Arrow changes
By
Adamh_77,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 17:05 in Developers' Corner
are there changes to it? no post on it other than this one
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are there changes to it? no post on it other than this one
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That's because the player base is almost as blind to TA as the devs. 
There are two additions to powers and two other powers had their recharge rate reduced. Based on the fact that TA needs a whole lot of help, I think it deserves an official thread.
"She started dancin' to that fine, fine music,
Y'know, her life was saved by rock 'n' roll."
--The Velvet Underground
/agreed
Trick Arrow is a fairly overlooked powerset, but learn how to play it and you can be pretty powerful. My TA/Archer can already take on spawns solo that would make many defenders think twice. Entangle, Glue, & Ice arrows can keep numerous mobs out of melee range while I turn them into pin cushions. Now with glue's recharge cut in half, some recharge enhancers could probably keep it up all the time. Plus there are several interesting debuffs available for team support.
TA is a very usefull set, it's a shame that more people didn't really give it a chance.
Ok, here's the first Issue I've found with trick arrow (my first one so I don't know if it's the same on not MM classes)
Glue Arrow: Location AoE(Slow)
The text and the icon indicate a drop, but actual execution is a *Targetted* AoE. Bug or Feature?
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Ok, here's the first Issue I've found with trick arrow (my first one so I don't know if it's the same on not MM classes)
Glue Arrow: Location AoE(Slow)
The text and the icon indicate a drop, but actual execution is a *Targetted* AoE. Bug or Feature?
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Text bug. It's been mob-targetted since going live.
So... fix it? I guess the OP was right about TA being overlooked.
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My TA/Archer can already take on spawns solo that would make many defenders think twice.
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Which "many" defenders would that be? The legions of Emp/Psi?
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My TA/Archer can already take on spawns solo that would make many defenders think twice.
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Which "many" defenders would that be? The legions of Emp/Psi?
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Yeah, my Dark/Dark can and always has been able to take on fairly large spawns safely.
It's just slow as dirt trying to do so. 
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Trick Arrow is a fairly overlooked powerset, but learn how to play it and you can be pretty powerful. My TA/Archer can already take on spawns solo that would make many defenders think twice.
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I'll take the Pepsi Challenge with my Dark/ or Storm/ any day of the week. If I had a Rad/ of appropriate level, I'd include that set also (my only Rad character of SO levels is a controller, which is an unfair comparison).
If we're comparing the solo ability of TA/ against those "pure team builds" then it's not a relevant comparison.
Hmm. Glue arrow is mob-targetted, but the effect remains on the ground for a time in a circle centered around where the target stood rather than moving with the original target, as far as I can tell. Which would make it something of a hybrid.
Well, regardless, I suppose it ought to be reworded.
One drawback of the internet is how it has trained so many people to think that one day is a long time.
Could we get a red name to begin a thread for Trick Arrow (and archery) changes? Even though this one is stickied (thank you), it's still very unofficial looking in the lost of other threads started by "red names."
With just 10 replies so far, I'm guessing that all 21 Trick Arrow users are delighted with the upgrades to their skills. 
As the 22nd TA/A defender I haven't finished taking a look at the changes. Darn RL time contraints
Tygyr Tygyr Burning Bright
Well, now that this is an "official" thread, let's start a compilation.
How do the recharge times look now on Glue and Disruption? These changes are obviously going to make a difference in the early stages of play, but how do they affect TA as a set and the ability of the player to mitigate damage later?
Oil Slick still not lighting consistently (Goofy_Parrot). Anyone with Energy or Fire attacks other than Blazing Arrow who can test this?
Flash Arrow versus PvE mobs?
Entangling Arrow versus immobilization-resistant mobs?
Probably going to be another day or three before I can get on the test server to do a full run-through, including AV combat, but I sincerely doubt that the set will perform any differently in that type of situation, despite the buffs and bug fixes, due to the lack of -regen. Those who can get on the test server and have posted in other threads, would you be gracious enough to repost your prior commentary elsewhere into this thread for a better chance of developer review?
And thank you for the sticky, Cricket.
Well, this is the space we've got so let's use it.
Since there's also no sticky for Archery, I'm including those changes as well (though they deserve their own thread).
The listed changes for Trick Arrow are as follows:
<ul type="square">[*]Oil Slick Arrow should no longer have the odd failure to ignite condition.[*]Current changes implemented to Defender, Controller and Mastermind Trick Arrow sets:
1. Added 0.1 Slow to Entangling Arrow. Included Run Speed cap reduction as per other slow powers.
2. Changed Flash Arrow to Auto Hit in PvE. In PvP, a tohit check is still required.
3. Glue Arrow recharge time cut by 50% to 60 seconds.
4. Disruption Arrow recharge time cut by 50% to 60 seconds.
5. Fixed Continuing FX for Entangling Arrow in PvP -- the FX would never show up on a player target. [*]Fixed a bug with Oil Slick -- it was erroneously showing a -SPD debuff on the caster.[*]Fixed some issues with Poison Gas Arrow (Mastermind, Defender and Controller). All versions will now choke the targets more often, will play the proper visual f/x and will affect the proper area. [*]Controller and Defender versions of Poison Gas arrow will be more effective now. The chance to Sleep a target has been increased, and the PvP aspect of the Controller version has been fixed (it was not working against players at all.)[/list]
The listed changes for Archery are as follows:
<ul type="square">[*]Rain of Arrows, Fistful of Arrows and Ranged Shot animations shortened. [*]Reduced Cast/Interrupt Time on Archery Ranged Shot [*]Corrected End cost for Archery Snap Shot, Aimed Shot, Fistful of Arrows and Blazing Arrow. The Snap Shot, Aimed Shot and Fistful of Arrows changes apply to Mastermind Ninja's powerset as well.[/list]
Test and discuss!
My initial impression is the set still underperforms.
Especially at low levels.
A single target immob, a acc debuff without enough debuff does not do enough to keep a defender alive nor provide enough benefit.
The set is better at high levels but at low levels its still bad.
Flash arrow needs its debuff doubled
Acid arrow needs a bigger aoe
Disruption arrow, might need more effect, its still way outdone by tar patch.
Poison gas arrow still seems lacking...
Its a great set for controllers, a playable set for MM's, but its still way outperformed by dark, rad and storm.
Possibly needs buffs for defenders only.
And now, I discuss!
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Oil Slick Arrow should no longer have the odd failure to ignite condition.
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It's no longer got the odd failure to ignite. Now it has a reliable failure to ignite. (on the Training Room server, as of 5/2/06)
Out of 20 Oil Slicks, attacking with Blazing Arrow (with two even-level SO accuracy enhancements):
Two (2) ignited
Eighteen (18) failed to light
Also, it's still possible to miss. I missed five individual Oil Slicks, and two of them were missed twice.
I would have tested more than 20, but this was fairly conclusive.
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1. Added 0.1 Slow to Entangling Arrow. Included Run Speed cap reduction as per other slow powers.
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Not having a respec prevented me from testing this at this time.
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2. Changed Flash Arrow to Auto Hit in PvE. In PvP, a tohit check is still required.
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This makes it reliable as a pseudo-stealth power, and improves the power to the level of Fire Control/Smoke (with a slight variance on the -accuracy due to AT modifier). So, thank you for that.
This power does need a noticeable -accuracy component, though. There are few and select circumstances in which -perception helps defend the team. The -accuracy on Flash Arrow should be its primary, and major, component.
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3. Glue Arrow recharge time cut by 50% to 60 seconds.
4. Disruption Arrow recharge time cut by 50% to 60 seconds.
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I won't pretend that this solves the inherent problems inflicted upon Trick Arrow Defenders. I gladly state, however, that they are much needed and much welcomed changes.
At the risk of hijacking my own thread...
I understand that the purpose of this thread is to discuss the changes implemented on test; however, I fear it's the only place that suggestions for meaningful improvement of the set as a whole will be seen by the development team (since posts and PMs have yet to elicit any response).
So forgive me and indulge me. This is 9 months' worth of observation and feedback rolled into one post, and I feel it deserves to be seen.
The Problems with Trick Arrow (as a Defender set) as I see them.
Problem 1: Fewer debuffs are spread out across more powers. A Trick Arrow/ Defender has to spend a lot more time, using a lot more powers, to generate the same number of debuffs (or less) that other debuffing sets do.
Problem 2: Trick Arrow has low availability of many key powers.The set suffers from unprecedentedly-long recharge timers. Supposedly this was to prevent self-stacking. Having the powers not stack, or even cancel out previous applications when recast, would be a far better system than what we currently have if it meant we weren't forced to ration over 1/3 of our primary powers.
Note: this is pretty much resolved with the Issue 7 changes on the test server as of 5/2/06. Oil Slick still has a 3-minute base recharge, which is twice the recharge of Ice Control/Ice Slick. I can certainly see the concerns with an Ice/TA Controller having at least one of these always ready, but a 90- or 120-second recharge on the Defender version wouldnt be completely out of line. EMP Arrow also has a long recharge, but this is balanced with all other Tier 9 Defender primary powers and is fine as-is).
Problem 3: The set as a whole is underbalanced. As a set that debuffs, and ONLY debuffs, it should do this job better than sets that debuff and ALSO heal, buff, and/or rez. Currently, it does not; it does the debuffing job worse than its debuffing brothers and sisters. This is due to missing debuffs (-regen, area -fly/-jump) and the fact that many its debuffs are inferior to those in debuff/buff/heal/rez sets. Trick Arrow Defenders do not need the buff/heal/rez options (and most who post on the subject dont want them, myself included). However, since we lack those options and only have debuffs, we should have a clear advantage in the debuffing area to compensate.
Problem 4: Animation times are far too long. Typically, sets with weapon draw animations are given some sort of compensation (a little bit of accuracy, range, etc.). Whether or not any one of us feels that is enough, the fact is that it is there. Trick Arrow gets no such compensation. The animation times are horrendously long on most powers, and this applies even more to Trick Arrow/ Defenders who choose something other than /Archery.
Only when addressing Problems 1-4 can we then begin to address Problem 5.
Problem 5: Some individual powers are implemented in a makeshift, clunky manner.<ul type="square">[*]Entangling Arrow has a delay between when the arrow hits and when the immobilize lands.[*]Flash Arrow's to-hit check makes it very unreliable as a -perception power, and its -accuracy component is laughable; the power does two things poorly.
Note: As of the Issue 7 patch on the test server as of 5/1/06, Flash Arrow is now reliable as a perception power. The accuracy is still laughable, however.[*]Glue Arrow not only fails to prevent enemies from flying out of it, it also cannot be cast on a flying foe. A target that is already airborne cannot be affected by this power unless he's by another enemy that's on the ground.[*]Ice Arrow presumably has a slow component to it; this component was not only tuned way down before the set went live, it does not last any longer than the hold duration of the power, making it mostly useless.[*]Poison Gas Arrow has a chance to sleep opponents. This is largely useless, especially when things like an unlit Oil Slick will wake them right up (not to mention how useless an unreliable sleep is in most groups). Poison Trap at least has a hold effect, and it's a secondary power.[*]Acid Arrow has a to-hit check, presumably for the damage over time component, which makes it unreliable for the debuffs it's primarily used for.[*]Oil Slick Arrow has numerous points of failure in igniting it. First, the power has to be available (3-minute base recharge). Then, the Defender has to manually target it among the mob of enemies if he does not have an area-effect fire/energy power. Then, he has to use an attack on it; in the case of my TA/A, that means blowing my absolute best attack power on something that isn't an enemy. That power then has to hit; it often misses several times in a row. Lastly, the Oil Slick has to decide that it's using flammable oil; often this is not the case.
Note: The last point of failure in lighting Oil Slick is in the process of being resolved. The current fix on the test server as of 5/2/06 is faulty, but when resolved will mean one less point of failure.[*]Although all TA powers are fired from the same bow, they have varying ranges. You can be close enough to fire off one power, but not another. They should all be consistent in range since the delivery method is the same.[/list]That's seven out of the nine powers that are awkward or just plain buggy (sometimes both).
Ideally, fixing Problems 1-4 and consolidating effects on powers, and adding in new powers to fill in the empty spots, will alleviate many of the issues in Problem 5. But it's a LONG way to go to get there. However, the Trick Arrow/ Defender community would like to be included in the process. We love the set enough to want to see it be what it could be and what it should be.
Regards,
GP
Working with a lowbie TA on test, I still get hit with the impression that this set doesn't bring a lot to a team in low levels. All I can suggest on this point is that Flash Arrow needs to be significantly stronger than Smoke/Smoke Grenade/Etc and Entagling Arrow significantly stronger than Web Grenade and Controller/Blaster level 1 Immobilizes.
The to-hit debuff needs to be on par with radiant infection. By level 2 a Rad Defender has a very strong offensive/defensive debuff and a heal. A TA defender has a web grenade with a small slow and a small -perception, -to-hit buff.
What I find problematic about this is that these powers are BLASTER powers in the devices secondary. Sure they are better, but they need to be A LOT better. Entagling Arrow should be a substantial -recharge buff.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Flash arrow change description is incorrect (I think) ... it now being an autohit in PvE means it still needs an accuracy check in PvP, its effects will be applied IF the arrow's flash hits the target, and not a tohit check for PvP ...
Glue and disruption arrow recharge is great now, 60 second recycle without enhancements 
Disruption arrow increases my attack damage by about 25% (will have to check proper numbers though on attacks)
That's all I have played around with at the moment ...
CHAMPION!
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Disruption arrow increases my attack damage by about 25% (will have to check proper numbers though on attacks)
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Disruption Arrow is unchanged; it's adding 20% on test just as it is on live.
All I want for christmas is this as a secondary for archery blasters. Nerfed, not nerfed just give it to me.
Ok, I took my level 15 TA/A out last night. First I ran the mission on live, then I ran the same mission on test. My impression is that it performed better on test than live. I opened every battle with flash, glue, ice, and fire, then just shot at everything until they died, cycling ice in as it recharged. I didn't have any major endurance issues on test, where a long battle on live left me popping blues for endurance. It feel like the test version ran slightly faster and having glue arrow available for every fight made a huge difference. once I can get 3 SO recharges slotted in it the power will be even better.
This was against the clockwork the enemy type I have the worst time against. I think its that they have fairly hefty damage reduction against lethal while inturn hitting me with all that electricity.
I would have to play longer of course but my initial impression is that it performs better than it did.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
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Ok this is my first TA toon (officially...my last didn't go past lvl 4...I was unimpressed) For a ninja MM, I can see the use of many of the arrows like glue and oil slick. But for anyone else it's pretty useless. Needless to say, I like to be fair and give all powers a decent try. Again on only hitting lvl 6 there is not much to say but found an interesting bug (?) [Now I asked in the help channel about this but got a definite no] Here is the issue:
Is Flash Arrow supposed to aggro? I thought it was supposed to "blind" foes to anything outside of melee range (ala smoke bomb) but I seem to agro more often than not when I use it. Is this normal? Am I overlooking something?
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Well, Entangling did get buffed, but it's still worse than Web Grenade - Web Grenade has the same Immobilize duration, but also has a significantly higher recharge slow. In fact, this is true before you even consider the effect AT modifiers should have.
Web Grenade lasts nearly 12 seconds, and turns the Contaiminated Rebarb Club attack from a 10 second recharge to a 14 second one. WG activates in 1.37 seconds, recharges in four, and costs 7.8 endo.
Entangling Arrow lasts 14.5 seconds. and turns said attack from 10 seconds to a 10.9 second one. It activates in two seconds, has the same recharge, but, thankfully, does cost slightly less, at 5.2 endo.
For those interested, a Defender using Web Grenade would immobilize an enemy for 15 seconds, and slow the attack from 10 to 14 seconds (yes, it's screwed up - Defenders are just as good at recharge debuffs as Blasters are.
Can someone explain why this is still worse than what we'd get with Devices as a secondary?
Hell, while we're at it, I'm happy that they buffed Trick Arrow, but why did they buff the mediocre control powers, rather then the undeniably horrible debuffs? Flash Arrow still underperforms compared to the defense bonus Fortitude provides, nevermind debuffs like Radiation Infection or Darkest Night.
Come on, prove that it's not against the rules for a dev to start a post on Trick Arrow.
Seriously, the changes look like a good start to getting the set on track, but we should have a place to post about the changes like all the others.