Official Thread for Trick Arrow changes
By
Adamh_77,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 17:05 in Developers' Corner
As an aside, I looked(but probably not well enough) and didn't see an Archery Official thread. I spent some time comparing and couldn't find any difference in the animations. Rain still takes a while and the snipe still has that pause at the end where you just stand there. The pause for aim and snap still seem present also.
Ranged shot has had a full second cut off the end of the animation.
The pause behind ranged shot on test is insignifigant.
I just got thru playing with Assault rifle making a new corruptor as well. Archery has less pause that AR I believe making it an overall quicker executing set, excepting blazing arrow.
Snap shot is one of THE quickest recharge/animation in the game.....
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Anyhow, as much as I think Disruption Arrow needs a secondary effect, PLEASE don't make it a Disorient! No more controls! It'll just end up having to be weakened for Controllers with Trick Arrow! Make it cause Knockdown, make it cause detoggling, make it interrupt powers with interrupt timers, anything but more control that is stronger for Controllers "by design!"
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OR how bout something new.....like....
Causes anyone inside Disruption Arrow's Field to use double endurance for using there powers....=)
Also I would like to see disruption arrow count as a field of interrupt. Right now it doesn't follow the 'disrupt' of its own name.
Something else as well.
Emp Arrow may be bugged on Live, if anyone can test it on test it would be appreciated. On live I am having Freak Tankers in missions regen DOUBLE what they normaly do when useing their Dull Pain ability while they are under the effects of Emp Arrow.
If anyone can confirm that this is fixed in I7, that would be nice.
At level 33 a Freak Tank should not be healing 478 HP (it was close to 500, it may not have been exactly 478).
Did a few hours testing with my Merc/TA mastermind today. For masterminds at least, TA has become a very nice set. The new recharges and the poison gas arrow changes coupled with the bodyguard buff have made this set very powerful. I can debuff mobs and easily survive their aggro, which allows me to use the AoE debuffs/controls at the very beginning of fights, which is always the best time for TA due to mob scatter and animation times.
On the buggy side, I do have to report Oil Slick arrow never ignited once, not even when my commando used his flamethrower attacks. It appears to be worse on test than on live.
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Flash Arrow (and Smoke and Smoke Grenade and a couple Temp Powers) is setup to not alert the AI when it is used on them.
Now, that isn't as simple or cut and dried as it sounds. It is still an attack. As such, it causes suppression on all powers that have such -- including stealth and related powers. It sounds like what is happening is something like the following:
1) Player clicks attack button; animation begins; suppression begins.
2) Target "sees" the player, and the critter is "aggroed"
3) Animation finishes and all attributes are applied.
In that example, if the player were outside the critters normal perception range, they would not have aggoed, even though they attacked. If, however, you are within normal aggro range, and using Stealth powers to offset that, then as soon as the stealth suppresses, you've already got aggro.
Now, all of that said, it is possible what I've outlined above is NOT what is happening and there is a bug involved. In testing this over the next few days, pay close attention to how this works, and keep the above sequence in mind. If that does not match what you are seeing, let me know.
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This is why mobs need reaction timers.
Reaction timer > Animation of power = no agrro until the power strikes the critter.
Another thought... Surpression... Can it be changed that when a Power is surpressed so is it's endurance cost?
Both of these Ideas will help the Trick arrow and other sets...
ArchRex Dojhrom x ?
* Sidus Loricatus: B-NRG2, S-BS/Reg, T-Fire/Ice, MM-Bots/FF, St-NRG2, Dom-Psi/NRG, Cor-Son/Traps, Cor-Ice/Kin, Ctrl-Fire/Kin, PB-LB/LA
* Arachnos Loricatus: Soldier, Widow
* Praetoria Loricatus: B-DP/Dev, Cor-Elec/Elec
I just did a run of 50 Oil Slick tests.
Conditions: Level 46 (old copy of Dancing Hawk); Blazing Arrow slotted with 1 Accuracy/3 Damage/2 Recharge SOs; Hurdle, Swift, Stamina and Vigilance auto powers; Sprint. No mobs were attacked during this test run, no other players were nearby, the only actions taken during the tests were activation and placement of Oil Slick and attempted ignition with Blazing Arrow. Blazing Arrow was placed on autofire, Oil Slick was manually activated and targetted.
On the 5th, 9th, 11th, 27th, and 50th attempts, Oil Slick failed to ignite. Blazing Arrow struck and defeated the target, but the slick did not catch fire.
On the 22nd attempt, Blazing Arrow missed the target 3 times in a row. The slick evaporated before a 4th attempt could be completed.
On the 37th and 42nd attempts, Blazing Arrow missed the target 2 times in a row. Both of these attempts did succeed on igniting the slick on the third attempt. I have screenshots of the combat log of both of these attempts.
I was also going to test in a mission, but under exactly the same conditions as listed above, Blazing Arrow missed the target 3 times in a row on the 5th attempt, at which point I stopped. I also have a screenshot of this final attempt.
Oil Slick is still conning as a friendly in Warburg, preventing us from igniting it.
Glue Arrow: I couldn't reproduce the bug Soul_System brought up. The effects did seem to be lasting longer than they should've, as spawns that I used the power on were still moving slowly when it had recharged (with 3 recharge SOs, the speed debuff should've worn off approximately one second before recharge).
EMP: Unable to test at this time, no Freakshow tanks of an appropriate level for me and can't test the power in Bloody Bay (too low to get EMP Arrow).
Has the issue with fire imps running away from a lit oil slick been addressed/absolved? Is it more of a fire imps problem, or an Oil Slick problem?
I only ask because I am planning on rolling up a fire/TA controller, and this will greately affect whether I roll him up.
Always up for teaming with good players, so hit me up: @Deceivius and @Deceivius2
Oil slick not lighting is getting depressing. I have had some really bad luck recently lighting it. I would swear it has never been this bad before but I literally went a few missions (3) and Oil Slick didn't light once. I have never had it that bad.
I meant to post this, but I guess I forgot (I blame Cinco de Mayo).
Two Disruption Arrows from the same TA will indeed stack. If you can get out two and Acid Arrow, you can cause -60% Resistance for about two or three seconds 
(which is only enough time to probably get off one Blazing Arrow and either a Snap Shot or Aimed Shot, sadly).
Just a quick note -- I'm probably repeating someone since I haven't had time to keep up with this thread.
I understand the justificaton for Glue Arrow not affecting fly; it's an effect that spreads over the ground around the mob you target, so I wouldn't expect it to take down a flier (though I concede it might make sense to keep one grounded, but don't feel it's necessary). But I believe that it needs two changes:
1) Target the ground, not the mob. The effect is a stationary target on the ground, so why isn't the target?
2) Add -jump.
One drawback of the internet is how it has trained so many people to think that one day is a long time.
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I understand the justificaton for Glue Arrow not affecting fly; it's an effect that spreads over the ground around the mob you target, so I wouldn't expect it to take down a flier (though I concede it might make sense to keep one grounded, but don't feel it's necessary).
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The NPC version of caltrops prevents fly and brings down fliers who get too close to it. The same with Quicksand. And Tar Patch. None of these are any more realistically justifiable to have -fly and -jump; yet Glue Arrow is the only one of the bunch to lack the component.
I don't mind justifications as long as they're applied unilaterally.
Just as a note, I can hover above a patch of NPC-laid caltrops. I've yet to see an NPC lay the other powers, so I can't speak to that.
Tar Patch and Caltrops aren't listed as having -fly in Sherksilver's hero builder, though Quicksand is, so I won't argue about consistency, though. (I don't have characters in a position to actually test the reliability of that info; none of them are at a level where they routinely encounter fliers.)
Anyhow, I support it being -jump in any event, so it's just quibbling. I don't need it to be -fly, but I don't object to it. I would feel odd about it bringing down fliers, though, under the circumstances, for the reasoning I stated.
One drawback of the internet is how it has trained so many people to think that one day is a long time.
Also the fact is that more NPC and PVE foes will negate your -spd using a flying power than will ever negate using jump powers.
Jump would be maybe a mob running away, maybe.
Fly includes COT, Longbow, Arachnos, sky raiders, etc. List em all, thats alot of bases not covered considering the limitation of being ground based.
I believe the justification behind Glue Arrow not having -Fly is that it's debuff is inescapable. Tar Patch, Quicksand, and Caltrops can all be run from, Glue Arrow can't AND can now be perma (I'm not sure if that's true without Hasten). I think the Devs feel it might be too powerful if the only way to get out of it was to teleport.
Of course, I could be totally wrong. By the way, I think in PvP Glue Arrow has -Jump. I've seen it not have any in PvE, but Villains (and people on the boards) have told me they can't jump while under the effects of Glue Arrow.
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I would feel odd about it bringing down fliers, though, under the circumstances, for the reasoning I stated.
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I agree; however, I don't believe the implementation of -fly is that elegant. There is no reason that Quicksand should somehow reach up and pull flyers into its muddy little hands, but it does. Glue gumming up jetpacks, fouling wingfeathers, etc. is a far more justifiable explanation of -fly than some powers which currently have a -fly component (not that that sort of thing counts in this game 
).
Add me to the list of confirmed cases of Flash Arrow actively aggroing a mob to me.
They were all the "ignore him so he doesn't hurt us" type of con-grey (too low to gain experience from), and I fired a Flash arrow into the mob and the whole thing turned on me. They didn't attack me until after I had activated the arrow.
/bugged it but felt like adding a second confirmation.
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Glue Arrow has -jump. So does entangle. They do not apply their -jump immediately. That is a problem probably due to server ticks and it is just going to be really annoying for TA.
However, being reminded that Quicksand does have -fly, I think the defender version could use it. Only the defender version is that is possible. Controllers don't need to have TWO quicksands in their arsenal. Not to mention but it would make Fire/TA even more powerfull than it already is. Actually, the level of controll in TA being considered controll and not actually a debuff is getting rediculous.
So many of these powers would be fine buffed for a defender, but in the hands of a controller in combination with their primary becomes really overpowered.
Color me a little frustrated by this whole situation. Had I known what to expect in terms of Trick Arrow, I would probably never have started the set. I just wanted to show everyone that a straight debuff set was worth as much as a buff set. I was obviously wrong.
To top it off. When it doesn't work, the developers are willing to let us suffer till it works. Oil Slick, just get rid of the requirement of useing a power to light it and let us get to use it in PvP and PvE without having to waste our already minimal attacks and TIME lighting it. TIME being the one thing that we cannot get back and is the most precious. Oil Slick wastes it too often and even when it does light in PvP, it is a waste of my time because, BAM assassin strike and my just lit Oil Slick goes away.
Power? Still recharging.
Debuff spawned patches need to stay after death. It is not fair to have them go away upon death. PbAoE buffs don't go away if you kill the caster, debuffs shouldn't be hampered by death either. Tit for Tat.
That's a decent point to present, Concern. Sadly, it hasn't gotten much attention before this.
I doubt anyone here could say Trick Arrow was too good for Defenders right now. It's still a weak set, and it meshes very little with secondary powersets - those which *should* match best are plucked out from being possible choices due to the nature of Oil Slick. I doubt you'd find many to say Trick Arrow is even good for Defenders.
But a Fire/Trick Arrow can drop Cages, Hot Feet, and Smoke for a tohit debuff on par with base Darkest Night, and enemies will be easily have their recharge floored or near-floored (AND still be lighting Oil Slick). An Earth/TA will have access to Quicksand and Glue Arrow, Earthquake and Oil Slick. An Ice/TA will have similar capabilities with Ice Slick.
I think we're going to see a lot of problems with players picking up /ta controllers and benefiting too much from it. I'd rather have a lot of the controls replaced with other debuffs that are already lacking from Trick Arrow (-regen, -special, etc) than have Trick Arrow nerfed because Controllers can get it.
I completely agree.
*Gets down on knees with palms raised*
Do you hear us Castle? Do you?
I don't think _Castle_ can do this one. It'll require Geko for balance issues, and probably a lot of responses from the art team (although they could just cannabalize existing animations). Given that this is a Quality of Life thing, and nothing more, I'm doubtful we'd be so lucky.
It may not even be viable. It's possible some hero content is balanced around a lack of -special powers. It's possible a 'pure debuff' set would be considered too powerful, or too weak. Or be penalized by having their abilities split up into two weaker powers just to fill the set.
Could I get some QUANTITATIVE data on the new TA changes? I'm a numbers kind of fellow, it'd be much helpful. Even moreso, make the post and PM me the info as well. Thanks.
-wd
"It's your money or your life madam. Oh wait! Today's Thursday! It's both."
A bit more testing of various Trick Arrow and Archery powers tonight.
The endurance reductions in Archery are VERY pleasing. On live, with the same slotting, I can easily burn through an entire bar of endurance after firing EMP Arrow. On the test server, using the same attack string and the same toggles running (Sprint, Assault, Tactics (i don't want to hear a word about Sprint, people. you have YOUR travel powers, i have MINE. besides, it's slotted with 1 Microfilament, 2 Jump, and 1 Endurance reduction. so hush!)) I still had enough endurance by the time I finished the spawn I was testing on. Much better. It turns some of the powers from situational to potentially useful much of the time.
Blazing Arrow was giving me a doubled sound effect every time it fired. Probably due to the lag and unoptimized state of I7 on test, but still worth mentioning just in case.
Ranged Shot is very nice now that the end pause is gone. It's still not "ZOMG" in the hands of defenders... we won't be 2-shotting anything with Blazing and Ranged without someone else buffing us (or a dozen little red pills), but it adds a great deal to the versatility of the set now that it's usable. Also, with 3 Centrioles, the range is absolutely jaw-dropping. I couldn't gauge the maximum range in the short time I spent playing with it, but I could back up until I lost the targetting reticle, take a step forward, and STILL fire Ranged Shot. It was long enough, in fact, that with a little backpedaling, I could get a second shot off before the mob closed enough distance to return fire. I don't think I'll try to fit it into my regular attack string, but it's definitely worth having now (even without the Centrioles in it), and blasters should find it very worthwhile.
Power Build Up forces bow redraw. I also noticed that Build Up does it on my Archery/Energy blaster on Pinnacle. Archery's Aim, however, doesn't force redraw. Is there any chance we could get the blaster secondary click buffs (Build Up, Power Boost, Boost Range, etc.) and Power Build Up to not force bow redraw? I can toggle on Assault and Tactics and keep my bow out, and those are generic pool buffs. I'd expect the same from powerset buffs that are supposed to work in conjunction with Archery.
I still didn't have the heart to try Flash Arrow. There's only so much I can put myself through in the interest of bringing TA up to par. 
On a side note, while I was PvPing tonight on Pinnacle, I noticed that someone using Superspeed can basically ignore Glue and Oil Slick's speed debuff. Against an opponent with status protection and Superspeed, TA's effectiveness drops significantly. Can't hold, can't immobilize, can't debuff speed, and Poison Gas' damage debuff is less than a single SO (and, of course, the sleep component is also ignored by those with full status protections). That really only leaves Acid for the TA to rely upon or contribute when teamed and facing this type of opponent (stalkers, brutes... anyone with CJ and SS). Is this working as intended (Superspeed allowing players to ignore speed debuffs)? If so, is there any chance that TA can get some kind of tweak that allows it to affect Superspeeders, such as the addition of a small toggle dropping chance to one or more of the powers, or making the speed debuff unresistable in PvP?
I'm trying to arrange a test night with my SG, sometime in the coming week. I intend to have a full team run a single mission once with no defender, once with my TA/A, once with my Kin/Elec, and once with my Dark/Dark, and get some basic information such as mission completion times, number of teammate defeats, general level of health and endurance of the team, and opinions from the players on how each run through "felt" in regards to difficulty, pacing, and enjoyment. The purpose is to find out how TA compares to other defenders in actual gameplay, and hopefully help isolate problems areas so they can be addressed at some point in the future. I've been making a lot of mental and verbal comparisons to my other defenders, but I've never actually done anything like this to find out just how the different sets really stack up, so I'm hoping the results will at least be interesting and worth the time/effort.
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You dismissed my comment that EMP had -regen?
/e hangs head
Why? Have I not provided pretty reasonable and correct evaluations in the past?
E tu Brute?
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Theatrics aside, you can see the -regen on live if you want. It has always had it.
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Um.. no, me es... Defender? I don't speak Spanish. :B
Anyhow, he's right. EMP Arrow has always had -Regen on Live. It's just not listed in any of the description (they also don't mention it drains endurance either, but it does). The sad thing is that other Defenders get a much faster recycling -Regen. Both Kinetics and Dark's heals cause -Regen (I think), and Rad has TWO -Regens. Why must our only -Regen (The ultimate debuff against AVs) be in such a situational power? I agree with people who say to put a -Regen in Poison Gas Arrow or Acid Arrow.
P.S. Yes, I did actually get the "E tu Brute?" comment, before anyone thinks I'm uncivilized.
P.P.S. Git 'er done! *buuurp*