Official Thread for Trick Arrow changes
By
Adamh_77,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 17:05 in Developers' Corner
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But, is it possible that the person in your PvP fight had some form of slow resistance (Speed Boost, Quickness, etc.)?
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Stone armor brute, and there was only one corrupter in the zone (who came over to play, anyway), who was Ice/Rad.
If there was a /Kin or /Fire corrupter anywhere, he/she wasn't buffing anyone but this one brute and wasn't leaving the villain base (and never came up as bounty, in the 2+ hours that i was in Siren's). Everyone else was very strongly affected by Glue and Oil Slick, even the /SR stalkers (i could tell who they were simply by watching to see who was moving at more than a snail's pace). Also of note was that this brute was the only one running Superspeed. The rest of the villains were using SJ and Fly. If this brute did have a pocket buffer, it was a clever one who managed to stay off the bounty list and hidden in close proximity to several heroes, many of whom were running Tactics (he/she had to be close because the brute wasn't being defeated often enough to have a buff stay active that long if it'd been applied at the villain base).
He kept SS on at all times once he saw who was using Glue and Oil Slick, and did his utmost to prevent me from using it or keeping it up for long (i got smooshed bunches tonight! 
). Definitely a smart tactic (especially against a no-travel power TA/A), but I just wondered if it's supposed to work like that, a bug that can be fixed, or an oversight that can be compensated for.
I'll see if I can talk someone into doing a little testing in Siren's with me. I won't discount the possibility that I just plain missed seeing a corrupter with the right powerset nearby. It was rather hectic in there last night. Lots of great action, for a change.
It's entirely possible that he wasn't ignoring the slow effect. If he was running Sprint, Swift, and Super Speed, especially if he has more than one Run SO in any of them(certainly a possibility for a Stoner), then he's probably hard capped on speed, and your Slick doesn't drop his speed enough that he's not still at the cap(or not enough to be noticeable in the heat of battle anyway). I think if you could have gotten someone to lay down some Caltrops or another Oil Slick, you would have seen him slow down.
It's like a blaster being at full Defiance, then popping Aim+BU, eating a couple large red candies, and then being given Fortitude, AM, and Assault: At this point he's at, say, 750% damage, hard capped by the system to 500%(I think? Maybe it's 600% for blasters? Whatever). Then he's hit with a 20% damage debuff. He's still at 600% damage, so he's still at the hard cap of 500%, so there's no visible effect.
Same kind of deal with your Oil Slick vs. Super Speed guy. You know. Maybe.
Super Speed alone in PVP is enough to negate any single slow power, and prolly any two.
I've used caltrops only to have a super speeder blaze right thru them as if they were not even there. I noticed a very slight slow down, but it was barely perceptible.
I think that slowing powers should suppress super speed or reduce it's effectiveness as a secondary effect to the slow.
Also on the rare case you actuallly Overwhelm the immobilization protection of a protected foe in pvp they merely pop a break free.
OK...so far this weekend a few more things I noticed about Flash Arrow. It does not seem to affect the enemies while aggroed (somewhat of a moot point). If FA is supposed to "blind" foes from anything short of melee, then why is a ranged shot aggroing mobs that are "blinded"? What amount of -acc is it supposed to grant while aggroed? cause all it seems to me is that the are not just hitting me, but they look pretty with the golden glitter all over them.
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The ACC debuff is around 5% base i believe, mebe 4% from the impending I7 changes. Not near enough.
STILL never had flash arrow aggro to me, but there are enough and credible enough people out there saying it does to say nay.
On a side not I have an archery fix I'll prop in here.
Just got Stunning Arrow today. It rather seems to be like Ice Arrow without the immob. In other words, decent power, animation makes me wanna scratch my eyes out.
In fact it seems to be identical to ice arrow in everything except for the status effect given and the fact it causes negligable dmg . (approximately 1/3 of snap shot) Same recharge, same animation, same duration as ice arrow. (best as i can tell seeing as it ends about halfway thru ice arrows duration unenhanced.)
The devs should really know by now as ranged AT you DEPEND on your range to survive, and long animations kill that defense.
PLZ fix the rest of Trick Arrows animation times, and fix stunning arrow's as well.
More on glue arrow.
Wasn't actually testing it today, I was playing on live, but regardless of how it's bugged it is most definitely bugged on the lingering effects.
When the patch fades enemies are freed from the slow immeadiately the vast majority of the time.
The intended working is for it to linger awhile even after the original patch fades correct?
This is not reliably happening, in fact it's rarely happening. It happens a bit more on test i think, yet still is not reliable at all.
Lastly I know the devs are at least looking at this thread. Toss us a tidbit or something? We are suffering slowly from gradually diminshing hopes that other problems with the set will be adressed.
I myself am especially concerned about the controller/defender version being the same. They need to be different or defenders need to get an advantage of some sort in the set.
Such as the defender version having quicker recharges than the controller version and better debuff %'s.
Hi Castle (and all) -
The description you supplied seems accurate.
I have a Devices Blaster w/ Smoke Grenade and Cloaking Device. The 'glitch' that I've been experiencing (if we want to call it that -and I do 
) is this:
When I an NOT using my Cloak (not stealthed) I can move up to a group and Smoke them and, as intended, NOT pull aggro. When I AM Cloaked and attempt the same thing, the Smoke aggros them.
I use a 'follow' macro and queue my Smoke attack to test this so that my toon stops and activates the attack when she reaches the maximum range for the attack. This range is, I presume, outside normal Perception range, but within normal Aggro range. Is this correct?
The upshot of this, on the surface level (to the user), is that smoke is NOT an attack when used un-stealthed, but IS an attack while stealthed.
I'm not much of a programmer but from the description you supplied, it seems that because smoke is considered an 'attack' (part of that class of objects and all attack objects have the properties 'suppress stealth' - and 'suppress move power', etc. ?) it seems like the property of attacks to suppress powers and the property of attacks to draw aggro need to be differentiated maybe?
Even more perplexing is the fact that this behavior seems to happen only PART of the time.
Hope this helps, and thanks for looking into this
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I myself am especially concerned about the controller/defender version being the same. They need to be different or defenders need to get an advantage of some sort in the set.
Such as the defender version having quicker recharges than the controller version and better debuff %'s.
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That should've already been the case, as to debuff numbers. If not, then this is another nail in Trick Arrow's "properly tested before implementation" coffin. Just like the fact that the preponderance of masterminds are /dark. Yet another hint that Trick Arrow is woefully unbalanced.
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Flash Arrow (and Smoke and Smoke Grenade and a couple Temp Powers) is setup to not alert the AI when it is used on them.
Now, that isn't as simple or cut and dried as it sounds. It is still an attack. As such, it causes suppression on all powers that have such -- including stealth and related powers. It sounds like what is happening is something like the following:
1) Player clicks attack button; animation begins; suppression begins.
2) Target "sees" the player, and the critter is "aggroed"
3) Animation finishes and all attributes are applied.
In that example, if the player were outside the critters normal perception range, they would not have aggoed, even though they attacked. If, however, you are within normal aggro range, and using Stealth powers to offset that, then as soon as the stealth suppresses, you've already got aggro.
Now, all of that said, it is possible what I've outlined above is NOT what is happening and there is a bug involved. In testing this over the next few days, pay close attention to how this works, and keep the above sequence in mind. If that does not match what you are seeing, let me know.
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_Castle_, one thing that is happening seems to be Flash Arrow suppressing itself. With no form of stealth on, I use Flash Arrow on a group. If I use it again on that same group before the previous version wears off, and I'm inside the normal aggro range, the group sees me as soon as I begin the second Flash Arrow animation. Aside from Flash Arrow, no aggro is generated on the enemies by myself or anyone else. This is on the training room.
That itself sounds like buggy behavior, and could theoretically be related to the overaggro problem.
Not sure...but I think this post belpngs in another thread. Smoke Bomb or the Devices set does not bare any relevence to a thread about TA. With that said...
I agree partially with a previous post that someone said that a thug/TA is a terrible combination. I disagree with one exception. The animation delays between the 2 sets....from bow to guns to bow again. But with that aside, I have become comfortable with the delay to use the set wisely and I am starting to like the set.
Likewise, I feel the frustration of more experienced TA users at the lack of effectiveness it currently has. I also can see the potential prowess of the set, but in cautioning in the side of "better less than more" by the devs, I see TA was given too little to justifyibly call it balanced with other sets.
I am truly glad that this set is now effectively being looked at and will get the attention it so deserves. I mean come on...what would Manticore say about this
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I mean come on...what would Manticore say about this
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Nothing. Manticore's an Archery/TA blaster.
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I mean come on...what would Manticore say about this
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Nothing. Manticore's an Archery/TA blaster.
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Personally I think he is a reformed Archery/TA Corrupter. 
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Controller pets, and even the pets of other players, still run away from burning oil slicks.
Where as a small fix has been made to this oil slick problem (pets will only run away if the oil slick is damaging an enemy), it is still causing melee pets to become ineffective while it is being used as an attack.
My fire/TA controller is having the problem with his imps. I've heard imps being the most prone to *this bug other than jack and sings but reports of other primaries still say they have a problem.
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* Changed the timing on the Oil Slick Ignite effect to improve its chances of affecting the Oil Slick.
* Glue Arrow now has a -Fly component. For real this time.
* Fixed an issue where Entangling arrow could be escaped, despite its -Fly component by jumping/flying out of it.
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Ahem, Glue now has -fly.
We are definately getting there folks. Now, just a larger AoE on Acid and we are going to be seeing more people picking up TA Defenders.
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* Changed the timing on the Oil Slick Ignite effect to improve its chances of affecting the Oil Slick.
* Glue Arrow now has a -Fly component. For real this time.
* Fixed an issue where Entangling arrow could be escaped, despite its -Fly component by jumping/flying out of it.
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Ahem, Glue now has -fly.
We are definately getting there folks. Now, just a larger AoE on Acid and we are going to be seeing more people picking up TA Defenders.
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I'll trade in the AoE increase for a regen debuff.
We should also get a group of TA players together on the test server some time to test some of these changes together. Finding mobs to test everything that's changing is difficult. It'd be much easier in the Arena or a PvP zone, where we could compare notes on the fly and gather data more easily (such as the new -fly in Glue).
I would be up for this but I run late hours or early ones.
The name of my Trick Archer on Test is Shadow Shaft though. So perhaps it's possible we COULD meet up some time thru chance. Friend me and I will friend dancing hawk on test.
EDIT: Others willing to help test these changes should prolly post your test server character name as well. The more people the better the chance we get some good testing done.
I know I'm not perfect and i run an off schedule, but i'm def willing to help fix our problems.
Not sure if this will help much but I got a /TA Mastermind on test level 28 Named: Eva Hunter
40 /TA MM here, see sig for name.
You can count Trickshooter in, if anyone is on when I am.
Don't mean to post right after myself but...
Studying the -Fly of Glue Arrow, it seems to only cause -Fly while enemies are in the patch on the ground, not for as long as they have the sticky graphic on them. I guess that makes it like standard slow patches, but with a lingering, inescapable -speed.
I just copied my lvl 27 TA/A defender over to test last night. I'd like to use a banked respec and drop fitness, specifically to choose a couple powers that were changed so as to test them. (I dropped entangling, and haven't picked up oil slick yet). I wanted to play him some tonight, but I got preoccupied with my elec/elec brute. Anyway, his name is Sgt. Scorpion, so if anyone wants to hook up and run mish's or whatever for testing purposes, /friend him and send a tell.
I will say that from the short time I did play him that the set is much improved with the changes to glue and disruption alone. Admittedly, it doesn't solve all it's problems, but it's a good start.
I created a T&A defender back when the set was first introduced and I remember threads that were HUGE on the nerfs they did to the set. Then the devs said that if it continued to preform poorly they'd change it...so they let it go live preforming poorly and didn't seem to listen to all the posts in the threads back then We will see if they listen to this thread.
The new animations are still too slow for the higher level attacks and debuffs.
Glue arrow refresh seems ok. The duration seems a bit short but not bad.
Flash is still too slow and doesn't seem to debuff all that much, course I don't have any debuffs in my attack because I had to have accuracies but thats been changed.
Poison arrow still lacks, Doesn't seem to debuff all that much and the damage ticks are pathetic with 3 just past even level do's in it. 1.09 damage in 21 slow ticks. Refresh seems fine, fire rate on it still a bit slow but not horrific.
Can't comment on Oil slick as i don't have it yet.
Archery damage is sub par imo and needs a little something, like a minor dot on all attacks to simulate bleeding or something.
Fun set, but slow powers makes it painful to play. Stopped playing mine after the first set of nerfs and the devs not listening to the feedback given. Cest la vie.
Lack of a heal or team buffs makes this powerset not quite as wanted on teams. The debuffs in the set are ok it seems at my low-mid level.
Endurance costs are not as bad as i remember them, probably due to ED's endurance reduction on all powers.
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The new animations are still too slow for the higher level attacks and debuffs.
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YES, animations are one of the LARGE remaining problems.
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Glue arrow refresh seems ok. The duration seems a bit short but not bad.
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If they ever manage to fix whatever bug is on lingering effects when patch ends the duration is quite fine as it is on test.
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Flash is still too slow and doesn't seem to debuff all that much, course I don't have any debuffs in my attack because I had to have accuracies but thats been changed.
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Even auto-hit still needs more debuffage to help save team, in addittion people are still commenting about aggro issues.
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Poison arrow still lacks, Doesn't seem to debuff all that much and the damage ticks are pathetic with 3 just past even level do's in it. 1.09 damage in 21 slow ticks. Refresh seems fine, fire rate on it still a bit slow but not horrific.
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You mean acid arrow, Which is quite a fine power.
It's not for dmg it's debuff. Debuffs are 15% RES, 25% def base. 25% def debuff is enhancable. Accuracy on this power is also good.
If anything it needs a slightly larger AOE, OR a -regen. I feel regen really fits better on the actual poison arrow though.
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Archery damage is sub par imo and needs a little something, like a minor dot on all attacks to simulate bleeding or something.
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Archery seems a bit lacking on dmg but alot of testing needs to be done yet. The set just got alot cheaper on endurance and some animation wait times got fixed.
My only real gripes are actually the animation time on blazing arrow and stunning shot.
Out of those two blazing arrow prolly needs it less but both suffer the exact same pitfalls as ice arrow on the animation.
IE the animation times in many situations might as well be signing your death warrant.
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Lack of a heal or team buffs makes this powerset not quite as wanted on teams.
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The set has the capability to be just as good at other sets, but it still has a few problems mucking it down.
One of the main ones being the fact it's being balanced around controllers/mastermind.
Balancing a classes primary by how useful they are as another classes secondary is not so good for the primary.
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). I don't PvP, so though I imagine it wouldn't help against slow powers there, it just might. But, is it possible that the person in your PvP fight had some form of slow resistance (Speed Boost, Quickness, etc.)?
On a side note, while I was PvPing tonight on Pinnacle, I noticed that someone using Superspeed can basically ignore Glue and Oil Slick's speed debuff. Against an opponent with status protection and Superspeed, TA's effectiveness drops significantly.
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In PvE, Superspeed doesn't help a bit against slow powers (nor does Siphon Speed for that matter, which is irrelevant to the conversation but a sore point of mine