Official Thread for Trick Arrow changes
By
Adamh_77,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 17:05 in Developers' Corner
Well still working on my MM primary to get anything past Flash Arrow (by the looks of it, I won't be able to get another secondary until 16) but you brought a valid and disturbing point [ QUOTE ]
Also something to address the insta-aggro problem when it misses
[/ QUOTE ] This is true also of Entangling arrow and of my pistols for my MM. If it registers a hit, I have to wait for the animation and the hit for the agro. This needs to have at lease a slight delay between the miss and the agro. Kinda seems like Captain Obvious made appearance when coding: (no offense to the devs who are doing a marvelous job)
Me: Ok...lets blow this guy (shoots pistol)
** Target and surrounded mob rush me **
** Halfway into the rush where they have the "lets kill the idiot with bow and arrow" look in their eyes, I see the MISS pop up **
Me: I missed
Team: * as they jump into the fight * Ya Think!!!
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I thought of FA worked like Smoke Bomb (and knowing that when I get hit with it I see and can target nothing) meaning on the NPC side, they would not see anything short of me coming up and slapping them. I throw FA from the maximum range. The agro still comes! and if the FA is supposed to cause a -ACC on those affected by it, it must be miniscule as I still cycle through my pets at least twice per mission because of this perhaps apparent lack of a debuff.
On a side note, how are the rest of you pulling numbers? HeroStats doesn't work on test (and even if it did, I still don't know how to read it to get an percentage numbers)
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[ QUOTE ]
Flash Arrow (and Smoke and Smoke Grenade and a couple Temp Powers) is setup to not alert the AI when it is used on them.
Now, that isn't as simple or cut and dried as it sounds. It is still an attack. As such, it causes suppression on all powers that have such -- including stealth and related powers. It sounds like what is happening is something like the following:
1) Player clicks attack button; animation begins; suppression begins.
2) Target "sees" the player, and the critter is "aggroed"
3) Animation finishes and all attributes are applied.
In that example, if the player were outside the critters normal perception range, they would not have aggoed, even though they attacked. If, however, you are within normal aggro range, and using Stealth powers to offset that, then as soon as the stealth suppresses, you've already got aggro.
Now, all of that said, it is possible what I've outlined above is NOT what is happening and there is a bug involved. In testing this over the next few days, pay close attention to how this works, and keep the above sequence in mind. If that does not match what you are seeing, let me know.
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I'll try to pay attention and run some tests. But what I understood the other posters were saying is that, while the flash arrow attack itself was not aggroing the mob, the mob still had the debuff affect and, once aggroed by anything else, sought out the source of the debuff. I think that sounds like when a mob is hit by radiation infection runs into another mob. Then all the targets affected by the debuff seek out the source.
I personally never noticed this effect. But I shoot so many arrows in succession that I may have missed it. I'll try just using Flash Arrow and let someone else run in.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
[ QUOTE ]
This suggestion has been posted before, but as it seems the people are still unhappy with their archers...
Why not remove the rooting on the TA/archery sets? Just a thought. Leave everything as is on test right now, but remove rooting. If the numbers are for whatever insane reason going to be so weak, that could be the "angle" of this set.
[/ QUOTE ]
So agreed!!
Creepy - Claws/WP Clown - 50 - August 10, 2008
Juniper's Daughter - Fire/Regen Scrapper - 50 - April 12, 2009
Fae Leigh - Grav/Kin Troller - 50 - May 30, 2010
[ QUOTE ]
On a side note, how are the rest of you pulling numbers? HeroStats doesn't work on test (and even if it did, I still don't know how to read it to get an percentage numbers)
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It does if you use the latest unstable build.
Debuff %s are notoriously hard to calculate. Mob accuracy (or player defense, same thing) isn't tracked by HeroStats because the game doesn't put any useful messages about it in the chat log. So a debuff of mob accuracy isn't going to be tracked either.
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My biggest complaints have already been addressed here, but I think I'll reiterate them. The set has VERY lack lustre buff/debuff characteristics. By trying to be a jack of all trades, we're a master of none.
- I respeced out of Poisen Gas because a weak AoE sleep is crap once you start applying things like oil slick, glue, rain of arrows and so forth.
- The acid arrow needs a MUCH larger AoE AND debuff to be worthwhile against more then just AVs and EBs.
- Flash is a joke as it stands, and serves me simply as a way of managing aggro for the group to keep from pulling multiple groups accidentally.
- Net arrow is far too slow to take effect, and an Immob does almost nothing against high level mobs that tend to shoot first anyways.
- Oil slick I'm happy with, though the knockdown component is a tad weak. I can live with that due to the slow AND the damage that once slotted becomes a very devestating form of offense.
- EMP is a wonderful power that I wish I could use all the time.
- Glue arrow is nice, but it needs either a minus fly or the ability to hit flying mobs, preferably both. Plus, things like Carnie Strongmen and Crey Tanks of all forms just ignore it. Considering a single one of either can be VERY devestating to a defender, this is not good. I even have mine slotted with 3 slows and they just plow through like it isn't there.
- Ice seems fine to me, though I'd love a shorter animation.
In general, the only 2 powers that combine effects as far as I can tell are the Def Debuff on both Acid and Oil arrows.
One other thought I had that might help the set is to perhaps give it maybe 50% more range to start with. At least then we'd have a couple extra shots to maybe even the odds with other sets.
[ QUOTE ]
The agro still comes! and if the FA is supposed to cause a -ACC on those affected by it, it must be miniscule as I still cycle through my pets at least twice per mission because of this perhaps apparent lack of a debuff.
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Yes, it is miniscule. I don't know what the debuff percentage is for Masterminds, but it's about 15% (again, that's about a 7.5% reduction in hits from an even-con minion under the to-hit system on live). The debuff of Poison Gas Arrow on a Mastermind is half that of Defenders (15% vs. 30%); if that same ratio holds true for Flash Arrow (and I don't know if it does, let me make that clear, this is just theory) then you're looking at about a 7.5% base debuff, or a 3.75% reduction in successful hits.
I'll happily be corrected on this number if anyone's done actual testing.
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On a side note, how are the rest of you pulling numbers? HeroStats doesn't work on test (and even if it did, I still don't know how to read it to get an percentage numbers)
[/ QUOTE ]
How do we get the numbers? Through many hours of painstaking testing and manual recording of hundreds (sometimes thousands) of attacks, with and without debuffs applied.
Hours of tedious work that could be avoided by an in-game display of power values, but that's another issue altogether.
You're welcome. 
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In general, the only 2 powers that combine effects as far as I can tell are the Def Debuff on both Acid and Oil arrows.
[/ QUOTE ]
The -defense of Acid Arrow is 25%, and the -defense on Oil Slick is reported to be at 2.5% (both numbers for Defender versions). In other words, adding a training origin defense debuff to Acid Arrow gives you as much -defense as using Oil Slick also. Of course, nobody uses Oil Slick for -defense anyway, we use it for -hit points. 
There are other powers that stack effects.
Glue Arrow, Ice Arrow, and Oil Slick all have -speed. *
Glue Arrow and Ice Arrow both have -recharge. *
Acid Arrow and Disruption Arrow both have -resist, for a total of 40% more damage to things you hit with both.
Ice Arrow can be used to help raise hold magnitude on anything EMP didn't hold, such as a boss.
* The version of Entangling Arrow on test has a "slow" listed in the short help; at this point I'm not sure if that means -speed, -recharge, or both (the long help does not clarify this either). Once the respecs are handed out tomorrow I'll be able to do some testing.
/unhijacks his own hijacking
Testing notes!
[ QUOTE ]
Fixed some issues with Poison Gas Arrow (Mastermind, Defender and Controller). All versions will now choke the targets more often, will play the proper visual f/x and will affect the proper area.
[/ QUOTE ]
I ran a test with Poison Gas Arrow on the training room. I picked a group of three even-con Crey minions and tracked the results of 50 PGA uses on the group.
I used the Defender version for this testing.
Sleep affected none: 10
Sleep affected one enemy only: 21
Sleep affected two enemies: 12
Sleep affected all three enemies: 7
Out of 50 uses of PGA, there were 66 individual sleeps out of 150 possible. That's a success rate of 44% in this limited test.
The base sleep duration is 8 seconds according to my stopwatch and questionable reflexes.
I did notice one thing that may be either a bug or just coincidence. If the bad guys are in their attack animation when PGA lands, they don't seem to be affected by sleep. In most of the 10 attempts that didn't sleep any of the mobs, all three were in attack mode when PGA hit.
_Castle_, could you double-check that and see if the attack animation prevents a sleep from landing, or if I'm seeing a pattern that isn't really there?
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Quote:How bout working with Oilslick so it works with pets????? this has been reported all over the boards. Being a fire/ta troller using oilslick makes my imps stop working for extended periods of time even if you /release_pets.....!!!!!
_Castle_:
Yeah, that *should* be fixed as well. I've not tested it since the AI guys told me it was dealt with. I have my fingers crossed -- this power breaks if I look at it crosseyed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well this oilslick fiasco is ridiculous....Im a fire/trick arrow controller and can not light up Oil Slick now! In 12 tries I was not able to light up the Oil Slick on test against Ritki, Nemesis, Malta, and CoT. If this is your guys idea of fixing this bug I think you guys fixed the bug with the pets because the OILSLICK NEVER lights up and I cant tell if my pets will go AFK on me or not if it does get lit.
If this is the case take my imps... I RATHER HAVE A WORKING OILSLICK lightable by my FIRE POWERS.
I hardly use my IMPS on live because Trick Arrow gimps them and makes them go AFK anyways. On live it easier to dispose of a group of 10 mobs with hotfoot and oilslick then it is using Imps.
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All I want for christmas is this as a secondary for archery blasters. Nerfed, not nerfed just give it to me. 
[/ QUOTE ]
/signed
/double-signed
/triple-signed
/quadr.....
you get the picture.
This is all I've ever wanted in a game. Any game. Not just CoX.
I'll [i]almost certainly[/i] be happy with I7....."SOON(tm)"
Too bad "Maturity" isn't an Enhanceable power.
Anybody with a bow is okay in my book. ;-)
@Linuial
Starfire/Hellfire
Liberty, Infinity & Protector
[ QUOTE ]
Is Flash Arrow supposed to aggro? I thought it was supposed to "blind" foes to anything outside of melee range (ala smoke bomb) but I seem to agro more often than not when I use it. Is this normal? Am I overlooking something?
[/ QUOTE ]
THANK YOU!
The members of my SG refuse to believe me when I tell them this. They keep acting as if I'm crazy.
In my experience, Flash Arrow did NOTHING but agro large groups of mobs, who then ran up to my squishie and pounded her into the ground.
I originally created both an Archery/devices blaster and a TA/archery def on Infinity. I HATED the way devices forced her to keep putting the bow away, and I can't help the feeling that it was increasing the response time (although I don't have hard figures to back it up). I decided that the only way I could have what I wanted was with a gimped TA/archer, playing to the secondaries. When I recreated this character on my main server, Liberty, I refused to take Flash Arrow because of my experience with it on my TA/archer on Infinity.
I'll [i]almost certainly[/i] be happy with I7....."SOON(tm)"
Too bad "Maturity" isn't an Enhanceable power.
Anybody with a bow is okay in my book. ;-)
@Linuial
Starfire/Hellfire
Liberty, Infinity & Protector
[ QUOTE ]
And while I'm on my soapbox, I might as well make a suggestion that I think would infinitely increase the viability of Trick Arrow/Archery: give Explosive Arrow a fire component. I don't care if it's 99% smashing and 1% fire, just so long as there's an area-of-effect power that will set off the Oil Slick.
[/ QUOTE ]
/signed
I'll [i]almost certainly[/i] be happy with I7....."SOON(tm)"
Too bad "Maturity" isn't an Enhanceable power.
Anybody with a bow is okay in my book. ;-)
@Linuial
Starfire/Hellfire
Liberty, Infinity & Protector
[ QUOTE ]
I had minions chasing me debuffed a good 20 seconds after the patch faded. So if they enter 2 sec before it fades they still suffer 20 sec of debuff.
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That's the intended behavior, yes.
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now if we could just get the -jump/fly, and the cycling minion disorient ticks...
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Stay tuned to this channel...
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Well this oilslick fiasco is ridiculous....Im a fire/trick arrow controller and can not light up Oil Slick now! In 12 tries I was not able to light up the Oil Slick on test against Ritki, Nemesis, Malta, and CoT. If this is your guys idea of fixing this bug I think you guys fixed the bug with the pets because the OILSLICK NEVER lights up and I cant tell if my pets will go AFK on me or not if it does get lit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok finally got my Oilslick to light up...but guess what?
My IMPS went AFK!
Any chance of looking into pet behavior around lighted oil slicks? Controller pets (fire imps in particular) tend to avoid it like the plague. Kind of counterproductive for a Fire/TA controller to have a power in the secodary that works against their pets. 
[ QUOTE ]
- I respeced out of Poisen Gas because a weak AoE sleep is crap once you start applying things like oil slick, glue, rain of arrows and so forth.
[/ QUOTE ]
Bad perception. The streangth of this power is the 30% dmg debuff. The sleep on test is rather helpful for small teams, low lvls, and soloing though.
The rest of the game the 30% dmg debuff can still make a big differance.
[ QUOTE ]
- The acid arrow needs a MUCH larger AoE AND debuff to be worthwhile against more then just AVs and EBs.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree it needs a slightly larger AOE, however it's 15% res debuff, 25% def debuff and has extremely high base accuracy. It's a good power and doesn't need to have a HUGE AOE. Just a lil bit bigger one.
[ QUOTE ]
- Flash is a joke as it stands, and serves me simply as a way of managing aggro for the group to keep from pulling multiple groups accidentally.
[/ QUOTE ]
Pretty much agreed, though every lil bit helps sometimes. DOUBLE the ACC debuff on it.
[ QUOTE ]
- Net arrow is far too slow to take effect, and an Immob does almost nothing against high level mobs that tend to shoot first anyways.
[/ QUOTE ]
Aye, fix this plz COX crew.
[ QUOTE ]
- Glue arrow is nice, but it needs either a minus fly or the ability to hit flying mobs, preferably both. Plus, things like Carnie Strongmen and Crey Tanks of all forms just ignore it. Considering a single one of either can be VERY devestating to a defender, this is not good. I even have mine slotted with 3 slows and they just plow through like it isn't there.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just add the -fly, perhaps even -jump. Still have it ground bound though.
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- Ice seems fine to me, though I'd love a shorter animation.
[/ QUOTE ]
The animation is what takes this from being a decent hold to a poor one. It helps but the animation makes me wanna scratch my eyes out.
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I had minions chasing me debuffed a good 20 seconds after the patch faded. So if they enter 2 sec before it fades they still suffer 20 sec of debuff.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the intended behavior, yes.
[/ QUOTE ]
The issue is beforehand the fx would last forever but when the patch ended foes would not stay debuffed. I believe I have even seen it myself on live.
If yall fixed it Then I most certainly appreaciate it.
I will do a direct test on live today to make sure I wasn't just swayed by the masses insisting it was an fx bug only.
[ QUOTE ]
Stay tuned to this channel...
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Weee!! they are looking . Thanks, as one poster noted certain PVE enemies basically negated the slow due to flying and such. COT spectres being a good example.
I'll not pester you about other proposed changes, I appreaciate any help you give us and know though your not commenting on it atm you ARE reading and looking and thinking.
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I had minions chasing me debuffed a good 20 seconds after the patch faded. So if they enter 2 sec before it fades they still suffer 20 sec of debuff.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the intended behavior, yes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Update, I just got offa live servers. I tested 4-5 groups in brickstown, council at first and then freaks as they are more mobile and easier to see the differance.
When the glue patch disappeared the mobs instantly moved faster.
Heading to test, will attempt to seek out the same groups and will edit post for the addittional results.
What ticks me off is that Smoke Grenades and the Stealth Suit in the Blaster/Devices Power set were supposed to compliment each other. This isn't the case any more. The range of Smoke grenades is too short and bad guys see blaster every time whether he has his Stealth suit on or not. The whole point of Smoke grenades was to have a cool way to sneak past foes. What happened to the concept of these powers?
Lemme clear somethings up for the Devs who might be getting confused by the Glue Arrow fx thingy. I don't want this to become another Poison Gas Arrow where the players and Devs confuse each other.
When you use Glue Arrow, it last for 30 seconds on the ground and on any enemies in the patch. If an enemy leaves the Glue Arrow patch and reenters OR if an enemy enters it for the first time while it's already on the ground, they suffer from the debuff for 30 seconds after they stepped on or back on the patch, not just till the patch fades. This is what Castle says is intended.
Castle, what the players are saying is that sometimes, most common when the Trick Arrower is defeated while Glue Arrow is active, Glue Arrow's sticky fx (glue dripping off enemies feet) sticks around forever. This can sometimes happen with ANY patch power, in any set, but it tends to happen more with Glue Arrow.
Sorry, I wanted everyone to be on the same page. I can't sit back and watch Glue Arrow become the next Poison Gas Arrow. 
Anyhow, as much as I think Disruption Arrow needs a secondary effect, PLEASE don't make it a Disorient! No more controls! It'll just end up having to be weakened for Controllers with Trick Arrow! Make it cause Knockdown, make it cause detoggling, make it interrupt powers with interrupt timers, anything but more control that is stronger for Controllers "by design!"
MAJOR UPDATE!!
Castle I have specific and repeatable information on the problem.
While testing Glue Arrow on test i noticed 1 foe of the group still slowed while the rest were not, so I focused in on the differance.
THE PROBLEM:
Foes inside of the glue patch when it fades are freed from the slow instantly. Glue fades while they are in it, BOOM, they are no longer slowed.
Foes outside of the patch when it fades stay slowed for awhile. So if they left the patch 2 seconds before it faded they stay debuffed. I actually had 2 foes a few feet apart on my screen directly show this once. 1 was freed from slow immeadiately and 1 was still slowed for 20 sec.
I repeated this exact circumstance about 5-6 times, and now that I think of it It supports my experiences on live server.
The graphics bug fx for glue is a red herring in this issue but is still a valid bug.
The real bug here is the fact the debuff cancels for all inside the glue patch instantly when it fades when it SHOULD hang around for 20 or so seconds.
But I guess I have to ask, is this intentional or is it a bug?.
You dismissed my comment that EMP had -regen?
/e hangs head
Why? Have I not provided pretty reasonable and correct evaluations in the past?
E tu Brute?
---------------
Theatrics aside, you can see the -regen on live if you want. It has always had it.
My mistake lol, it just seemed to ludicrous of a power to put it on lol, was a subconcious dismissal 
.
[ QUOTE ]
And I have screenshots of minions who still had the Glue graphic after I was defeated.
3 minutes after I was defeated.
It's a graphic bug.
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I specifically tested for this. Sent myself into the red more than once waiting on the slow to finally wear off. The actual slow debuff was lasting longer than the patch. The slow graphic was also disappearing reliably I believe.
Stealth buff anyone?
Seriously I will test it again tomorrow when I'm not about to imprint my face on my keyboard. I urge you to specifically test for this too. I would like a second opinion based on test server.