Official Thread for Trick Arrow changes
By
Adamh_77,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 17:05 in Developers' Corner
Description of Entangling Arrow (with the new slow effect added) needs correction.
'The Entangling Arrow can bring down flying entities, halts jumping and slows all of your actions.'
I'd think this was supposed to be along the lines of: 'slows all of target's actions.'
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Is Flash Arrow supposed to aggro? I thought it was supposed to "blind" foes to anything outside of melee range (ala smoke bomb) but I seem to agro more often than not when I use it. Is this normal? Am I overlooking something?
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And yet another independant confirmation of this happening.
You aren't crazy, Flash Arrow is an aggro magnet, and half of us have been yelling our heads off about it for months while the other half either never experienced it or don't believe it's possible due to the -perception in the power.
_Castle_, Posi, whoever's reading this, could you PLEASE LOOK INTO THIS? I personally ended up molested with my own bow repeatedly with tanks spamming Taunt and taunt/AoE auras until I stopped using Flash Arrow. If the power is going to turn the defender using it into the Great Big Target, it's NOT helping, solo or teams.
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Hell, while we're at it, I'm happy that they buffed Trick Arrow, but why did they buff the mediocre control powers, rather then the undeniably horrible debuffs? Flash Arrow still underperforms compared to the defense bonus Fortitude provides, nevermind debuffs like Radiation Infection or Darkest Night.
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This is what we got, let's work with it for now and give some hard evidence as to why we need stronger buffs. Something like running through one mission with the TA as the only defender on a team, then running the same mission with the same team, but with a Dark or Rad. Everyone, regardless of level, can contribute to this kind of test. We need evidence at the lower levels as well as the middle and higher levels.
You guys should know that they aren't likely to make more changes right now, not with much larger things going on, unless we can offer up solid numbers. This is one set with an admittedly small fan base, so despite our passion, we have to have more than opinions and theory to make our voices count. Someone is listening, even if we forget about that from time to time. Let's give them something to listen to instead of speculation and ideas, and if we really are still in need, we might get lucky enough to get the problem areas addressed before I7 goes live. But that won't ever happen if we don't have facts, numbers, hard data.
Aye that's why I personally ugre testing and participation. If we are gonna be taken seriously we need a strong prescence in this thread.
Otherwise it's likely any fixes will be put off till who knows when.
EDIT: I plan on spending many more hours on test with my TA/A tonight even though I wanna play with all the new toys in this issue.
Ok, fresh from testing on my Bots/TA mastermind:
Changes are pretty helpful. Glue Arrow is *much* better now >< I mean it was always a good power imho; but now I can actually use it every fight; it was of prime importance to me because of the way my Bots work.
Flash arrow being auto-hit again is a godsend <x.x>; I understand making it To-Hit for PVP; but for PVE it just never had enough effect for me to see the logic in it.
Oil slick still stubbornly refuses to ignite when I use my Pulse Rifle Blast on it; Pulse Rifle is energy damage, so that should light it yes?
Disruption arrow has always been nice; but the new recharge is making it really *useful* and not just convienent >.< So that's good. The slow in Entangle I'm not really sure about... it could help with bosses I suppose; and stacked with Glue Arrow I guess; It's better than what it was that's for sure.
I need to respec into Poison Arrow again though; I ditched it a longgg time ago when PGA was single target for MMs and now that it's not I know I'll want it back. >.<
Uhm... basically; we're headed in the right direction. ^^ I do feel *something* is still missing from the set (no, not a heal <-.-> I'll hurt you if anyone says that)
I think there's still a bit of 'need too many powers to get the same effect' going on; ie: you have to unload most of your set to get the effects of someone using half of Rad or Dark.
Course that may just be my bias as a Mastermind; I do have 65% of the maximum numbers.
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4. Ice Arrow- animation time is a HUGE issue here and the only problem, so i will repeat it even though i globally called out animation times.
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Also something to address the insta-aggro problem when it misses. If shortening the animation time doesn't do it (and it might not... mobs seem to be capable of crossing quite a bit of distance in a very short time), then perhaps this power needs to have rooting removed completely.
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7. Disruption Arrow- A continous chance to disorient foes within it's effect would be nice. Due to the power being perma now this should be a minion lvl disorient and only a continous chance, not reliable.
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<nitpick>
It's only perma-able with Hasten and at least 2 recharge SOs, or multiple buffs from Kins and/or Rads. With 3 recharge SOs, and factoring in the animation time, there's at least 4-5 seconds lapse between applications. And we aren't all using Hasten, or being buffed by other defenders.
</nitpick>
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ALSO Blazing Arrow has a signifigant animation time for lighting it. Shorten the animation time of blazing arrow or add a way to light it with a quicker Archery attack.
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With all the sparks that go flying when BS, Claws, Katana, or even our own normal arrows hit things, it really is a wonder plain old Lethal damage can't ignite the slick. Just adding my two arrows worth to a reasonable suggestion.
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9. EMP Arrow- Hard to say, looks like a solid power.
However Adding a -recovery element would be nice and go quite nicely with it's end drain element. This would also give slotting more flexibility.
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EMP does -recovery. Every spawn that I've used it on has had their endurance recovery halted for the entire duration of the hold (which, with PBU, is eternity+1!).
*sits back to wait for someone to mention that this commentary was unnecessary* 
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Disruption arrow increases my attack damage by about 25% (will have to check proper numbers though on attacks)
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Disruption Arrow is unchanged; it's adding 20% on test just as it is on live.
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I was giving an estimated number, wasn't 100% sure on the correct percentage hence the will have to check part ...
I've never had a problem with agroing mobs with flash, you may have been getting too close when firing it off, the mob you were firing at my have had a larger agro distance, the enemies may have been higher con to you, so can see through the -perception easier (thats my understanding) ...
CHAMPION!
This suggestion has been posted before, but as it seems the people are still unhappy with their archers...
Why not remove the rooting on the TA/archery sets? Just a thought. Leave everything as is on test right now, but remove rooting. If the numbers are for whatever insane reason going to be so weak, that could be the "angle" of this set.
I have a Test-native 21st level TA/A Defender. He has had the mission against Dr. Vazhilok in his inventory since level 19, and has been unable to complete it solo. Although my time has been limited this week, I was able to log on last night and play through the mission.
Result: I had an easier time taking out Dr. V than I had against his minions.
Given I was 2 levels higher than Dr. V, and he is the weakest AV, but I had tried this mission before the Valentine's Event, which was the last time I played the character, and got destroyed.
I think the changes to the Glue debuff was very helpful, as it allowed me to keep Dr. V slowed down more often. Also, I was having major endurance issues in the last fight, between using Hover and spamming debuffs and attacks. This time I was able to keep up steady fire, and only wound up downing 3 or 4 end insps before finishing the battle.
However, fighting was still extremely slow against the minions, even when they were only level 19 or 20.
On the whole, though, I'm pretty pleased with the changes.
Flash Arrow (and Smoke and Smoke Grenade and a couple Temp Powers) is setup to not alert the AI when it is used on them.
Now, that isn't as simple or cut and dried as it sounds. It is still an attack. As such, it causes suppression on all powers that have such -- including stealth and related powers. It sounds like what is happening is something like the following:
1) Player clicks attack button; animation begins; suppression begins.
2) Target "sees" the player, and the critter is "aggroed"
3) Animation finishes and all attributes are applied.
In that example, if the player were outside the critters normal perception range, they would not have aggoed, even though they attacked. If, however, you are within normal aggro range, and using Stealth powers to offset that, then as soon as the stealth suppresses, you've already got aggro.
Now, all of that said, it is possible what I've outlined above is NOT what is happening and there is a bug involved. In testing this over the next few days, pay close attention to how this works, and keep the above sequence in mind. If that does not match what you are seeing, let me know.
What happens is the mobs stay deaggroed after its applied, but when someone strikes them, they "remember" who debuffed and pound you into dust despites attempts to get them off.
Contrary to what some reports say a direct taunt application will pull them off, but punchvoke doesnt always get them to deaggro and normal attacks dont even make them look away.
Besides that a deaggro power with such a low acc debuff is just too weak for a bread and butter power. The low powers are supposed to be the ones that carry you, not throw aways you have to take.
Single target immobs have never even been considered in the realm of good power, its not bad as a secondary as in traps and devices, but for a primary, its just awful!!
What it comes down to in the fullness of everything, its just not as good as dark or rad at debuffing and both of those sets have other things going for it.
Also oil slick the great equalizer supposedly cant be used if you pick the wrong powerset to combine it with, this is poor design.
Its the same problem with fiery embrace for tanks, if you didnt pick the "RIGHT" powerset, it doesnt do anything for you.
TA is going in the right direction, but it still needs a little more work.
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Flash Arrow (and Smoke and Smoke Grenade and a couple Temp Powers) is setup to not alert the AI when it is used on them.
Now, that isn't as simple or cut and dried as it sounds. It is still an attack. As such, it causes suppression on all powers that have such -- including stealth and related powers. It sounds like what is happening is something like the following:
1) Player clicks attack button; animation begins; suppression begins.
2) Target "sees" the player, and the critter is "aggroed"
3) Animation finishes and all attributes are applied.
In that example, if the player were outside the critters normal perception range, they would not have aggoed, even though they attacked. If, however, you are within normal aggro range, and using Stealth powers to offset that, then as soon as the stealth suppresses, you've already got aggro.
Now, all of that said, it is possible what I've outlined above is NOT what is happening and there is a bug involved. In testing this over the next few days, pay close attention to how this works, and keep the above sequence in mind. If that does not match what you are seeing, let me know.
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Can you please address the possibility of TA ever getting a massive buff to its debuffing capabilities? Since it has absolutely NOTHING else to it?
The fact we can even debate between Smoke Grenade vs Flash Arrow is an indication of a serious problem with the set. There should be no contest, Flash Arrow should be heaps better than Smoke Grenade, Smoke Grenade is in Devices a Blaster SECONDARY, Trick Arrow is a Defender PRIMARY, and has no buffs or heals, it should be the Debuff Master in COH. Since thats all it does...
Goofy made a pretty good post making a case for the TA set a few posts up, you don't even have to respond to mine, instead address his :P
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TA is going in the right direction, but it still needs a little more work.
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I disagree. Trying to shoehorn a Controller Primary into a Defender Primary is very difficult, if not outright insanity.
While I appreciate that the "pairing" of Trick Arrow and Archery neccessitated making it a Defender power-set, that doesn't mean that the core set design (which is good) "fits" the Defender AT.
The best solution that I can see is to buff the set more, and then deny it to Controllers... sort of how Dark Miasma works now.
The whole concept of "Blast Set must be paired with Control set" is the source of the evil, though, and until that idea is exposed as problem-causing, everything else is a band-aid.
Ideally, Trick Arrow would be re-named and the powers recycled into a Controller Primary set, and the current animations would be re-used for an entirely new Defender set. I don't see that as likely, though.
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
Well, that's a known issue, _Castle_ (along with how Flash Arrow either suppresses its own -perception, or is suffering a reapplication gap similar to what O2 Boost or Increase Density did), but I think the poster here are referring to a seperate issue.
If I cast Flash Arrow from maximum range against targets that can't see me, then have another team member with few aggro tools (ie : scrapper) run in, the enemies will look at the scrapper, then turn and fire on the Trick Archer.
I'm not sure if this is an intentional mechanic or not, but it as it is, it's enough to prevent me from using the power as a pre-battle preparation, simply because the costs just are too high for what they provide.
EDIT: and, yes, I agree with Great_Scott's complaint, if not his solution to said complaint.
Trick Arrow has six powers with a primarily control component. That's not a buff/debuff set.
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TA is going in the right direction, but it still needs a little more work.
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I disagree. Trying to shoehorn a Controller Primary into a Defender Primary is very difficult, if not outright insanity.
While I appreciate that the "pairing" of Trick Arrow and Archery neccessitated making it a Defender power-set, that doesn't mean that the core set design (which is good) "fits" the Defender AT.
The best solution that I can see is to buff the set more, and then deny it to Controllers... sort of how Dark Miasma works now.
The whole concept of "Blast Set must be paired with Control set" is the source of the evil, though, and until that idea is exposed as problem-causing, everything else is a band-aid.
Ideally, Trick Arrow would be re-named and the powers recycled into a Controller Primary set, and the current animations would be re-used for an entirely new Defender set. I don't see that as likely, though.
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Cant do that, since there are already controllers out there with TA.
They would have to implement powerset respecs first and that would still leave grandfathered controllers out there that still have it.
No it needs defender improvement badly even if it overpushes controllers and MM's into uber.
Well, I won't cut and paste but I wanted to note a few things.
Now that the power is auto-hit it will function as a psuedo stealth power and provides defense about on par with Shadow Fall. While it doesn't have the resists, it also doesn't have to have your teammates in range of you either and that is a help. I am fine with the debuff as it is on Flash Arrow now that it is auto-hit. It was one or the other as far as I was concerned.
Entangle Arrow is heading in the right direction, but isn't there yet. This should be equal to Web Grenade at the very least and the time it actually takes for the effect to take effect needs to be looked at. It needs to take effect when it hits, not 2 seconds afterwards. Another possibility is that the debuff stays as is, but the endurance cost increased, recharge increased and the power could be made into an AoE power to syncronize with Glue Arrow. The recharge should allow it to be stacked on itself of course.
Glue Arrow needs to be able to target flying mobs. It would be very nice if this power negated flight. It honestly makes sense for it to negate flight. Relying on the slow animating Entangle may end up being what we have to do.
Poison Gas Arrow is a decent debuff and the increased sleep chance is a big help. I have no problems with this power. If you don't give -regen to Acid Arrow this would be a good spot to put it.
Acid Arrow needs to have either it's AoE size increased or it needs to get an additional debuff effect and honestly, the debuff would need to be -regen. For AV fights and in PvP we need the ability to debuff regen and we need it a hell of alot sooner than Warburg. Especially with the new HP of AVs and EBs. EMP Arrow doesn't last long enough in these fights to help and it begs to question why a debuff only set is worse than every other set when it comes to helping out by debuffing the big bad monster.
That is not all I have to say about Acid Arrow. Some sets have defense against AoE and ranged attacks, it just so happens that those are the sets that we actually need this arrow to hit. Yet, they defend against our debuff before it even applies. If you choose not to increase the AoE, give the Arrow negative regen, then it needs to be auto-hit in PvP and PvP.
Disruption Arrow should actually interrupt powers that can be interrupted. Again, this comes from the issue of this power being static and being worse than every other -res static power in the game. Yet, this set is all about debuffs and it is worse at debuffing than others. If your not seeing what we are complaining about, let us know and we will try and go into more detail about why this set needs help.
Oil Slick. The experiment is over. We would like to play the game now without wondering if you guys will ever get the code right. Simply have this power light after casting. Be done with it and let us have some fun. If you want to tinker to get the power to work by shooting at it then do it on your private servers and let us have fun on the live servers. That would also take care of the issue of having two secondary sets in the defender sets that cannot light the Oil Slick.
EMP Arrow, it's a hold that has a recharge time that is so long, I hesitate to use it at times. Sad, but I understand why the recharge is so long. I don't understand why the AoE has to be so small though. It would be nice if we could again have a larger AoE.
I skipped over Ice arrow because if there is one arrow that I hate having to take, it is this one. I hate to say this but the slow needs to last longer.
Okay, that is similar to what I have said before. I also need to add as I have before that if controllers and MMs are keeping you from balancing this set and implimenting some of our suggestions then just leave them out of the equation or take the set away from those two ATs. Defenders would like to be the kings of debuffing rather than have to pass it off to controllers.
They cant take the set away, thats the one suggestion I know is completly impossible. I also suspect they arent going to run two sets of numbers.
Taking the sets away would leave them with an amazingly bad grandfather problem.
They just need to be convinced that Defenders primary is more important than controller or MM secondary.
I also disagree with Great Scott's assessment for another reason:
While yes; compared to most defender sets TA is control heavy; it is *NOT* a Control set. There's too much debuff, and not enough control for it to be a primary control set.
Flash Arrow and Smoke are admittedly close.
Entangling Arrow is admittedly sub-par to most single target Immobilizes (which is saying something).
But Glue Arrow is actually rather potent. It's far better than say... Caltrops; because the attack rate slowdown is fairly substantial, and with the change to it's recharge its now actually *usable* on a regular basis.
Poison Arrow is the same way; though I believe the -Damage aspect of it needs increased; it is by definition a debuff; that has a possible control side effect. But that's not the 'point' of hte power; the point is still the debuff.
2 -Resist effects (one of which carries -Def); are also *debuffs* not controls. Ideally Disruption arrow should have something added to it; since it's currently *just* -Resist.
Oil slick is pretty good as is honestly; yeah, you can technically gimp yourself by not grabbing a power to ignite it; but it's not as though you can't read the description and make a decision long ahead of time.
Plus as a Defender powerset, I think all but Dark can ignite it right? It ignites for Fire *and* energy damage.
I haven't gotten EMP arrow with it yet; so I can't say a thing about it; but it is rather reminescent of the top end Rad power.
Really, only Ice Arrow and Entangling Arrow are totally "control" powers; everything else contains debuffs as a large part of their payload; or in the case of Oil Slick, does damage.
Ideally; here are my suggestions:
Entangling Arrow slow effect remains, and has -Acc added on top of that (caused by trying to struggle with the net). The -Acc on this should be fairly large because it is a lowbie power and thus "bread and butter" as some would say. This could be effective for debuffing bosses.
Flash Arrow's -Acc should be strengthened; or a secondary effect should be invented for the power; retaining its 'non aggro' status.
Disruption Arrow should have an additional secondary effect added... -Res 2x in the same set; especially for a power that requires mobs remain located in an area without giving any additional compensation is a bit... not good enough. Perhaps a chance to Disorient every so many ticks; yes, it'd enhance the "control" aspect of the set, but nowhere is it written you can't have a "controllery" defender.
I do think this set should never have been given to Trollers though... it's far far to late to change that now; but perhaps leave the Troller version of everything as-is; while buffs only translate to the Defender and MM versions (or even just Defender version).
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But Glue Arrow is actually rather potent. It's far better than say... Caltrops; because the attack rate slowdown is fairly substantial, and with the change to it's recharge its now actually *usable* on a regular basis.
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Glue Arrow's on-test incarnation is very similar to that of Shiver in normal use. They each have different benefits, that's true, but the end result tends to be very similar.
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Plus as a Defender powerset, I think all but Dark can ignite it right? It ignites for Fire *and* energy damage.
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Dark, and Psi.
Surprising how the most control-heavy secondaries don't work well with a control-heavy primary. Wait, no... that's not surprising. That's just sadistic.
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Working with a lowbie TA on test, I still get hit with the impression that this set doesn't bring a lot to a team in low levels.
What I find problematic about this is that these powers are BLASTER powers in the devices secondary. Sure they are better, but they need to be A LOT better. Entagling Arrow should be a substantial -recharge buff.
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I very much agree with this. As interesting as the TA set could be, I can never retain interest past the early levels.
Entangling Arrow is annoying, as a single-target Immobilize. If it's going to be single-target, it should be relatively strong, having decent Immob time (which I think it does) and a very strong -Recharge. Hey, they're supposed to be trying to get untangled!
I also agree that Flash Arrow's -Acc component seems weak. They just got BLINDED, they should have serious trouble detecting much of anything. Maybe there's a way to make the -Acc penalty downgrade over time, as they regain their sight?
Here's a suggestion - what about making all the TA powers with AoEs, have small areas of effect, but make them relatively cheap & fast (Endurance-wise)? That makes it more of a "tactical" AoE, good for hitting small groups, as opposed to massive packs of guys covered by other powerset's debuffs. To counter this, the powers should be relatively quick-firing (since you'll have to launch off more to cover the same area) and cost less Endurance. This would let the Trick Archer put the debuffs where they were needed, quickly, but at the cost of having a "one shot hits all" bonus. 
Remember, slows are controlls as of this moment. Which means that controllers actually have better results with the same power compared to a defender. That makes more things in the set about controll than debuffing. Emp Arrow is really just a big AoE hold with a long recharge. Great for the controller that wants a second AoE hold to use after he uses the other AoE hold in his primary.
So you have Entangle, Glue Arrow, Ice Arrow, and Emp Arrow being mainly about controll. Oil Slick is basicaly controll as well since it is a knockdown power similar to Ice Slick. Again, more controll for the controller that wants controll.
That is a 5 - 4 count by my books.
Why did controllers get this set? Were the devs on crack or will we be getting split numbers on this similar to the attack powers in CoV that have the same name but have different strengths.
I agree entirely with Goofy_Parrot.
Even with the reductions on Glue and Disruption and the no-more-to-hit-check on Flash, Trick Arrow is still plagued with numerous small-to-medium problems that add up to an extremely under-realized set.
Let me add my voice to the throng clamoring for severe increases to the effectiveness of all the debuffs in the set. If all it does is debuff, it ought to do it better than the other mixed-bag sets. The recharge time of Oil Slick still needs to be reduced, and the area of effect for Acid desperately needs to be increased.
And while I'm on my soapbox, I might as well make a suggestion that I think would infinitely increase the viability of Trick Arrow/Archery: give Explosive Arrow a fire component. I don't care if it's 99% smashing and 1% fire, just so long as there's an area-of-effect power that will set off the Oil Slick.
I'm glad that these changes have been made, but they still haven't brought TA up to par with the other defender primaries.
I've actually taken a TA/Archery defender to 30 (primarily with other "gimped" powersets on a team we've taken to calling The Gimp Squad) and it can be a very powerful set, when properly utelized. But these changes will make it actually powerful enough not to need the Medicine pool to be "viable."
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That is not all I have to say about Acid Arrow. Some sets have defense against AoE and ranged attacks, it just so happens that those are the sets that we actually need this arrow to hit. Yet, they defend against our debuff before it even applies. If you choose not to increase the AoE, give the Arrow negative regen, then it needs to be auto-hit in PvP and PvP.
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An autohitting unresistable defense debuff that sticks to the target and can't be escaped or detoggled? Err, no. Defense debuffs can be autohitting, and they can stick and be unescapable, but not both. Not for any cost, value, mechanic, or crash would I think that was balanced. If you want an unresistable, undefendable, inescapable defense-lowering capability, run tactics. Practically everyone else does, and I believe it has just about as strong a defense countering effect as Acid Arrow. Which actually says something interesting about Acid Arrow, Tactics, and Defense in PvP, all at once.
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They were padding the sets.
KK I'm usually quite postive about the TA set and I love the fact we are getting some love in this issue.
However we need much more to be on par with many other defender sets and this thread is about fixing it's still very noticable problems.
Taking it on a power by power basis but FIRST:
ANIMATION TIMES NEED TO BE LOOKED AT HEAVILY.
Many times it can simply take to long to lay down our many debuffs, especially since we require more powers to achieve the same effects.
Solo we are rooted and taking melee shots because of this, teamed many times we are struggling to get things laid down fast enough.
End costs? Unsure, need more extensive testing. However if we are to remain a bit underpar making the set cheaper would at least help with the reduced recharges on glue and disruption.
Now a power by power basis. This is more extensive listing than I have done before.
1. Entangling Arrow- For mercy's sake, it's a defender power and should be better than web grenade. Give it a stronger -recharge/spd component. Make it stronger than web grenade.
2. Flash Arrow- Auto-hit is nice but it needs to help keep my team safe. Animation time might also be looked at.
Double the ACC debuff on this power. Then it would actually help defende your team. Currently the ACC debuff is pathetic.
3.Glue Arrow- Add a -fly or -jump element
4. Ice Arrow- animation time is a HUGE issue here and the only problem, so i will repeat it even though i globally called out animation times.
5. Poison Gas Arrow- Add a -regen and increase duration by 20%.
6. Acid Arrow- The aoe ineeds to be increased. It's pretty small atm and only hits a decent amount of targets with good herding.
7. Disruption Arrow- A continous chance to disorient foes within it's effect would be nice. Due to the power being perma now this should be a minion lvl disorient and only a continous chance, not reliable.
8. Oil Slick Arrow- Fix the bugs. Make it light 100% of the time it's shot with appropraite dmg and plz take out the chance to miss it. It's a 30 foot slick, your not gonna miss.
Dark and Psi Defender secondaries need a way to light it.
ALSO Blazing Arrow has a signifigant animation time for lighting it. Shorten the animation time of blazing arrow or add a way to light it with a quicker Archery attack.
In addittion to that add fire dmg as a component of Explosive Arrow. Several other sets can easily light it with an aoe attack while archery must scramble to find the target. You don't always have the leisure to place it in a good spot for shooting.
9. EMP Arrow- Hard to say, looks like a solid power.
However Adding a -recovery element would be nice and go quite nicely with it's end drain element. This would also give slotting more flexibility.
This is my list as of this time, as I do more testing I might modify it thru further posts.