Official Thread for Trick Arrow changes
By
Adamh_77,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 17:05 in Developers' Corner
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I can sit here and tell you right now for a fact that the dmg oil slick does has an uncanny knack for aggroing enemies on me unless I have a nice tanker buffer, and that aggro is usually painful, poison gas arrow/flash arrow/glue arrow on.
The knockdown and dmg mitgation is quite true, I only have the issue after ignition.
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When we did our group test on the training room (earlier in this thread), my TA defender didn't take inordinate amounts of damage (more than the stormie, but less than the dark). I used (and attempted to ignite) Oil Slick each time it was available. We had zero tankers or controllers (we had two peacebringers, but neither of them was using dwarf form). I was using every single TA debuff that was available each fight (and had every single TA power in the build for the test).
It could very well be buggy AI/aggro issues (comparable to the inconsistent Flash Arrow aggro bugginess), or it could be something else entirely. I wouldn't say that Oil Slick damage aggro is unilaterally problematic, though. My experience is that it's certainly less problematic than the cumbersome and currently inconsistent lighting mechanism, for those secondaries that actually have a means of lighting it.
Well said parrot.
From the LIVE patch notes, 6/6/06:
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Oil Slick Arrow should no longer have the odd failure to ignite condition.
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_Castle_, this was not working properly after the last update on test (6/1). Has it been fixed since then, or will it be addressed soon?
hello.
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It's gotten to the point that my TA's battle cry is now "Cover me, I'm agroing!"
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Hey, I know you! 
Of course, I only remember the Oil Slick actually lighting about twice in that entire outdoor mission when we were teamed this past weekend. Mixed blessing, I guess ... complimentary bugs?
</Necronomaton>
Please try MA arc ID 351455, "Shard Stories: Scavenger's Hunt." Originally created for the Dr. Aeon contest, it explores the wild potential of one of the City's most concept-rich but content-poor settings: the Shadow Shard.
I appologies if this question has already been answered, but I havent seen it yet, so here goes...
Pets and Oil Slick. Is it a bug that pets will not enter the area of the slick? Even after the power has dissapated? Or is this intentional.. Either way it really bites.
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When is lighting Oil Slick a bad thing? Try really hard to think of something besides simpy pulling out the Agro issue because every instance of an agro issue is very specific and deals more with playstyle and game environment than an issue with the set.
Oil Slick lasts the same amount of time on the ground regardless of whether you light it or not. So when do you not want it to light?
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Ok, here's one time.. which I've seen over and over and over. Team of 8 with alot of crowd control. OS lights, EVERY FREAKING ENEMY TURNS AND SHOOTS ME!
Next spawn: 7 very skilled tanks who are all increadably good at drawing agro. They all just taunted, are running taunt auras, and are punchvoking... OS lights and once more EVERY ENEMY TURNS AND SHOOTS ME!
Hmm, how about with some other defenders? Once more as soon as OS lights every enemy shoots ME. Teamed with controllers? My experiance is they note how good of crowd control I have and start controling other stuff then what I'm targeting. Once more OS lights and I die from 16 or so attacks doing 100 damage each at least all at once.
Hmm, maybe an auto-lighting OS would be a bad thing. It's not the knockdown or slow that override all agro and direct it to me, it's the damage.
Here's another time that doesn't involve agro. Anything that's resistant to slow and has a ranged attack is likely to stay in the patch UNTIL it is lit. Once it's lit they make all haste out of the burn field. This means they are no longer affected by knockdown either. I've seen this time and again with warwolves.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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It's gotten to the point that my TA's battle cry is now "Cover me, I'm agroing!"
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Hey, I know you!
Of course, I only remember the Oil Slick actually lighting about twice in that entire outdoor mission when we were teamed this past weekend. Mixed blessing, I guess ... complimentary bugs?
</Necronomaton>
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The team I was with before that, seven tanks and me. One was a fire tank, and he'd light it every time it was fired. I'd die every time it was fired. Two of the tanks droped out and we got a pair of empaths. Stacked fort plus both RAs ment I'd survive.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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I appologies if this question has already been answered, but I havent seen it yet, so here goes...
Pets and Oil Slick. Is it a bug that pets will not enter the area of the slick? Even after the power has dissapated? Or is this intentional.. Either way it really bites.
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I completely Agree. I thought I remembered seeing that they had a fix in I-7...but....no luck. Anyone hear if there is an ETA for a fix..or if it has become a backburner Issue? Cause...w/o a fix, I would prefer NOT to light the slick about 95% of the time, and that seems like I am losing about 1/2 the usage of the power.
I've actually read through the entire thread, and I have two things to say:
1) You folks are REALLY dedicated to this set. I admire that, and it makes me want to roll a /TA of some flavor.
2)The discussion of how borked TA is means I'll never make one. It sounds too crippled. 
I pose a question to you: It's the very early stages of planning for CoH. Jack and the rest contact you and say "We're developing a defender Trick Arrow set. What do you think should be in it?" What's your response if you could remake it from the ground up?
The pets running from a flaming oil slick is no fun, especially when fighting bosses. Silly pets.
I've a ta question about ice arrow, or maybe holds in general. When I'm fighting a boss an shoot an icey arrow at 'im, sometimes they freeze right away, and sometimes they freeze like a good 10-15 seconds later which is kinda pooish. Is there a particular reason involving resistances, or is this too a bug? This one gets me killed more of'en than the flaming slick problem, or can make a fight very difficult.
My technicallese is a bit off, so I'll go laymans on this.
the main question is are you solo when this happens or grouped. An Ice arrow in and of itself is not enough to freeze a boss, it takes one other application of a hold to do so. My best guess is your hitting it and getting one mag 3 (I think) hold on it. Later, somebody else is hitting it with another hold, and that's when it kicks in. The two holds are strong enough to overcome his resistance.
If your solo, well I don't know then. Somehow a second hold is hitting him later.
I solo pretty much all the time, my attention span is too short to group and hafta always be here 
But you could be right, because my oni has a hold so that may be why. One would think that if the arrow wasn't enough to freeze right off the bat though, if a second hold did hit it would show the animation for the second and not the first *shrug*
I think I have just frozen bosses with the arrow alone coz I use it as a lead in usually then send the pets in for the attack, so I know the oni isn't doing anything then. Now I'll hafta check on that to make sure tho.
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I solo pretty much all the time, my attention span is too short to group and hafta always be here
But you could be right, because my oni has a hold so that may be why. One would think that if the arrow wasn't enough to freeze right off the bat though, if a second hold did hit it would show the animation for the second and not the first *shrug*
I think I have just frozen bosses with the arrow alone coz I use it as a lead in usually then send the pets in for the attack, so I know the oni isn't doing anything then. Now I'll hafta check on that to make sure tho.
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Technically, it does both of the animations because it's not one or the other, it's both. I was running in a group and the -4 controller was amazed that he was able to hold the bosses with his earth set holds by himself (big animation, Blind's hold effect is a little harder to notice) and didn't notice the bigger controller stacking holds on the same mobs 
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I solo pretty much all the time, my attention span is too short to group and hafta always be here
But you could be right, because my oni has a hold so that may be why. One would think that if the arrow wasn't enough to freeze right off the bat though, if a second hold did hit it would show the animation for the second and not the first *shrug*
I think I have just frozen bosses with the arrow alone coz I use it as a lead in usually then send the pets in for the attack, so I know the oni isn't doing anything then. Now I'll hafta check on that to make sure tho.
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There is this really interesting thing about the trick arrow powers and animations. If a target is already under an effect of a hold or immobilize power the animation and the power itself take effect when you activate the power rather than at the end of the animation.
This is usefull for controllers and others who can fire a quick hold and then use Ice Arrow afterwards holding the target the instant they press the botton, and not worry about the long animation it does after.
You can test this yourself with ease. Take your oni out and have him use ring of fire on a target. Activate Entangle arrow and watch as it springs up BEFORE the arrow even reaches it's target. It will do this every time as long as the target is immobilized by your Oni first.
With Trick Arrow...The flash bang arrow...Do the acc debuff's stack with multiple applications of the power from the same Character?
If not, then can the dev's either look into a way of making that happen or increase the accuracy debuff of the power? I realize that there is a difference between the arrow and for example the flash powder...Or the flash arrow and the controller power flash.
But, for the same general concept it just seems a little weak. Don't get me wrong...Flash arrow can be usefull in allowing someone to for example sneak past a group of mobs but in the long run that is a power with rather limited used, and when you recieve a power at the beginning of the game you want it to be functional and worthwhile.
I myself don't want to go sneaking past mobs as a level 2 because I want to attack them and level up. I am relatively new to trick arrow, but the first few levels while playing a trick arrow mastermind are...incredibly hard. Maybe I am choosing the wrong primary set as I am playing a necromancer with trick arrow.
But the two meld very well with the concept and I am in love with the concept of this character. But having to wait until level 16 before I will get a power that does something other than slow or make a mob blink makes me feel a bit cheated.
Granted, all reports say that trick arrow is powerfull in the end game, and mind you I am not asking that we become super powered at the beginning. But...Throw us a bone?
nope sorry flash arrow dont stack
mainly this is to stop people from firing 5 flash arrows into a group before attacking witch would more then effectivly ruin there acc
Trick arrows seams to have been balenced with comboing there powers in mind rather then having one or two mass debuff powers
exsample
Flash+Oil slick+power to ignite oil+disruption arrow+poison gas arrows+acid arrow on boss or lt in the group normaly this seams to be enuff for a fight but glue and ice arrow to help slow things down well seam to work for me anyway with both my 37 TA/Archer Def and 35 Thug/TA MM
I'm all about combo's, but the mobs are more likely to have their accuracy affected by the smoke rising up from the fire rather than flash bang arrow..
From the way I understand things...the measly acc debuff is like sneezing on the opponent and hoping a stray glob of spittle will deflect the bullet.
As a low level trick arrow mastermind I face the probability of having to resummon at least one minion if i go up against a group of say 4 or 5 blue conning minions.
If I were traps I would accept and understand that fact because triage beacon does not come into its own until SO level and then in my opinion it rocks.
With Dark Miasma I would have a heal to assist my minions along with a killer debuff.
With poison I have the ability to neuter vital aspects of at least 2 mobs plus heal the minion who is taking the most punishment.
With forcefield I can protect them from taking damage.
BUT
As Trick Arrow the only thing I can offer them is a slower response from their enemies. Yes, slow down effects are cool, they are very helpfull...if they weren't we wouldn't have ice controllers/dominators or ice blasters.
Maybe once I get higher up in level I will think differently and look at Trick Arrow as the regen scrapper of the Mastermind set, in that it is a late blooming set and you have to be willing to accept that.
*shrug*
I can't say for certain.
The Dev's want this to be a team oriented game, low level TA <insert archetype here> almost have to team to progress at anything more than a snails pace.
Would increasing the ACC debuff of flash bang arrow really tip the scales too much? I would be willing to accept removing the auto hit and making the power take an acc check in PvE. I'd be willing to need to put in enhancements to boost said accuracy. As the power is I won't waste my time because I'm not going to waste precious time in a PvP fight on a power that will provide me little if any benefit.
I have personally sent PMs to Positron and Statesman in September, October, and November of last year regarding Flash Arrow's inadequate value as a Defender primary power, as well as other issues compiled by the then-current TA Defender community.
Neither of them bothered to even read any of the PMs; for which I take the blame for stupidly putting "Trick Arrow" in the subject line.
So, yes, apparently it is too much to ask to have the -accuracy increased to actual Defender levels, rather than be based on a Blaster secondary power. I know this, because we have asked plenty of times already.
At a base 6.5% debuff value for Defenders (it's 3% base for Masterminds, I believe), I don't recommend anyone getting this power for use as an accuracy debuff, except when stacking on top of someone else's.
As far as TA being powerful later on, that's partly true. Oil Slick Arrow can do really nice damage for a Defender, when it's up and if everything works out properly (it's STILL bugged and doesn't always light).
As a Necomancy/Trick Arrow user, you won't have any way of lighting the slick yourself unless you happened to choose the "correct" origin or have a nifty temp power that does fire or energy damage.
The debuffs (aside from Flash Arrow) are nice, but it takes a lot of time to place them all down due to animation times and the fact that effects are spread out over a lot of individual powers; and you'll have to spend more time reapplying them due to short durations on some key powers. The one thing you can debuff better than anyone else is -resistance, by stacking Disruption and Acid (Acid having a chance to miss) for a 40% debuff. (Yes, no other Defender can debuff -perception so we're technically the best at that too, but it's so buggy and situational, and easily undone by stray fire/wandering teammates that I don't feel it counts).
Anyway, I think the devs have not said all they're going to not say on the set, and it is the way it will be until they unplug the servers. If there's any doubt of that, check which developer created this "Official Thread." Sad, that.
The set has style and potential, but it also has fundamental problems which the developers don't seem to care to hear about.
Ok it has been a while. Here is my assesment of trick arrow as a fire/trick controller. Flash arrow sucks for debuffing. The -preception doesn't make up for its lack of debuff even stacked with stealth. Ice arrow is ok but didn't realy use it as a controller. Posion gas arrow wouldn't be that bad if -damage wasn't based off of base damage instead of total damage. The sleep affect is to rare. Acid Arrow is great. Glue Arrow needs to be on the scale of lingering radation in the area of slows. Oil slick arrow's burn duration needs to be longer and its debuff needs to be upped. Emp arrow is not consestent. Either it will drain all my endurence or stop my endurence recovery. It has been sort of wonky. Disruption arrow is fine as it is.
The lack of heal hurts the set in comparission with the original defender sets I like to call them. The set really needs -def to hit debuffs. That or have a higher grade debuffs.
The over all set has gotten better but it still needs to be improved.
My TA/Archer just hit level 30 tonight. I frequently duo with a AR/Dev blaster, so that can skew my impressions.
Flash Arrow is useful for the Stealth component only. I can't tell that the ToHit debuff has any measureable effect. This power needs a buff to be closer to Radiation Infection (not the same, since RI costs End to keep running, but closer.) More so since ToHit Debuff enhancements are Schedule B.
PGA - Pretty good. Do the critters that were outside the AoE that then wander into it after it's fired get debuffed too? They certainly don't get Slept.
Acid Arrow - Fine as is. Could benefit from adding a -regen power for AV fights.
Glue Arrow - Good power but causes excessive video lag for players with less than perfect video cards. Actual graphical display of the power needs a fix.
Disruption Arrow - Fine as is.
Ice Arrow - a victim of the Defender Hold nerf of a previous issue. Needs a lot of Hold enhancements to make it worthwhile.
Entangle Arrow - Respec'd out of it. Ice Arrow is significantly better even with its short duration Hold.
Oil Slick Arrow - the obvious gem so far. Hope the "won't light reliably" bug gets fixed ASAP.
Don't have EMP arow yet.
Other Defenders are sometimes more effective at helping a team, especially when there is no Tank to control aggro - but that situation could be changed, IMHO, if Flash Arrow had (A) a better ToHit debuff and (B) there was a -regen power somewhere in the set; Acid Arrow would be the "concept" choice for that power. It bugs me that Fearsome Stare and Tar Patch can be more effective than several of my debuff powers put together.
Ideally, the tank will die precisely as everyone else starts fighting, allowing aggro to be spread evenly among the blaster. -seebs, "How to Suck at CoH/CoV" Guide
Yeah I agree with what you've posted..I have a 50 Illusion/Trick arrow controller he has been level 50 for almost a year now and these are my issues that I feel I have as a controller.
Entagling Arrow- In the higher levels not used that much and overall effectivness to ice arrow is low, I feel they should add a -speed, - recharge to the power and make it stack with multiple applications. Makes me feel if this was added that the set was actually "Trick" worthy.
PGA-only issue is the sleep portion, I feel poisonous gas doesnt make people sleep but take DOT-and have -damage and -regen (personal opinion think world war 2 mustard gas). that and the sleep is rare in my eyes to set in and after the initial sleep if I bother the enemy sleep doesn't kick back in ifIi leave them alone. otherwise adding a higher mag to sleep is fine with me atm.
Glue Arrow- I love this power, one of the best in the set, mine is six slotted three recharge and three slow, I can get it to stack most the time. only issue is lagg on my video card but im getting a new one soon
Acid Arrow-definitely needs -regen if anything in the set gets it it should be this power. otherwise just fine
Disruption Arrow- I have to say " All Gravy- oooh with biscuits too"
Ice Arrow- Fairly Good, needs to do some damage upon hitting the enemy I feel. similar to Ice controller ssingle target that does DOT but just have this do moderate damage upon hitting an enemy.
Oil Slick Arrow- Great besides the occasional failure to lite, couple with glue arrow and there is an awesome combo.
EMP Arrow- Magnitude on the hold is overall decent but the amount of end drain on my char is sometimes more severe than that of my enemy, also the occasional lack of end recovery after use is annoying...either I can recover end from right after the drop or I have to wait 30 secs to recover end in which that time my opponents that arn't held that I drained end from are already attacking with recovering end. - a change in this power is due I feel the amount of end I should lose should be lowered, the recharge time on the power lowered slightly and then the opponents should suffer from no end recovery for a period of time after use; just my opinion.
Some of the change i stated above would make this set way more versitile opposed to some other debuff sets like radiation, dark, kinetics. I know our set is good at a broad range of abilities but they are all average, and the animation to draw I feel makes the set not feel as powerful since the time does factor in to stacking powers when defeating enemies...to make up for that slightly boost the powers. ATM I can make due really well but thats because im mainly using only three TA powers
EMP, GA, OSA couple with my petsIi do still get fairly banged up so I took medicine since ta lacks a heal or self buffs.
just some personal thoughts i have after a year of being a 50 on my guy and playing with the powers. I did really enjoy the changes the devs made that made it better.
~Whitey
(just tacked this to the last post)
Trick Arrow should be more effective at buffing damage and debuffing resistance than Radiation Emission since Trick Arrow has no Heals, Rez, or Team Resistance/Recovery Buffing, and really does nothing more than Radiation Emission, it just uses more powers to achieve less effect. Perhaps Glue Arrow should have a minus Resistance or minus Regen added to it and Oil Slick Arrow should recharge quickly and last longer.
Minus Regen seems to be what most TA users request so add that effect to Glue Arrow, it fits the power and makes some sense.
In any event you Dev's need to make TA a better Resist Debuffer/Damage Buffer than Radiation Emission is since TA has no team Buffs or Heals or Rez. Teammates have to know that the TA Defender is the best even though it can't heal or Buff them like other Defenders. I can't tell you how many teams have added me as a teammate and then complain about not getting any Heals from you, you are useless, get a real defender please. Getting booted off a team is rare, but one was a Synapse TF.
One issue here to think about is that players don't understand TA until they play one. Consequently they rush ahead of TA's debuffing and wonder why they all died this time, eventually blaming the TA Defender as useless. Telling them to wait is not effective.
Bottom line, when you make a Defender set that only debuffs Foes, it better do that much better than the sets that also heal and buff teammates. Not nearly as good, but best and easily best.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
Very nice post! Agreed completely!
No rez / No heal / No Team Buff means that you better be REALLY GOOD at debuffing. Period!
Thank God people like me or else I'd never get a team. 
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My experience 180% opposite to yours then.
I have not been dropped by agro from Oil Slick, although DE have come close
Generally, against Nemisis and Carnies it is Oil Slick + Glue for the win. Well, Glue then Oil Slick in the case of Nemesis. Stupid Jaegers.
I just don't know how our experiences can be so different with this power. I mean, this is a power I open with to MITIGATE damage from agro.
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I can quite honestly say that my TA defender has outagroed 7 tanks just by the fire/tank's blazing aura lighting oil slick. I launch OS and things don't mind me any more then usual. Then the slick bursts into flames, mobs start taking alot of damage, the fire tank's jaw drops and he grows envious, and... I have 16 redcaps shooting at me all at once. There would be a few more, but those ones decided the fire tank looks annoying.
I've out agroed 7 tanks by using my other debuff powers too. There's just something about TA that makes the enemy hate my guts. It's gotten to the point that my TA's battle cry is now "Cover me, I'm agroing!"
I hit my battlecry a few seconds before dropping oil slick. After a few times initialy the team realised when I said that, I really ment it cause what I was about to do would draw enough agro to make anyone blanch.
That horror story told, I'm excited about the changes to TA.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History