Official Thread for Trick Arrow changes

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I don't understand the reasoning here.

Why should we have to take a performance hit as a price for getting a bug fixed

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I feel strongly that if they get the ingition fixed that this power will be nerfed after a little while, and most likely for good reason.

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I don't understand the reasoning here.

Why should we have to take a performance hit as a price for getting a bug fixed

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I feel strongly that if they get the ingition fixed that this power will be nerfed after a little while, and most likely for good reason.

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Only if they increased the defensive power of the set. Which is why you don't see me clammoring for a better flash arrow.

glue Arrow + Oil slick is enough to ensure firey death.

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I feel strongly that if they get the ingition fixed that this power will be nerfed after a little while, and most likely for good reason.

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I'm still not clear on where you're coming from. Are you saying that you feel Oil Slick NEEDS to be nerfed as part of a bug fix because you THINK it will be nerfed later on?

Here's the way I see it.

If Oil Slick's failure to ignite is a bug, which it certainly seems to be from _Castle_'s comment (not to mention the basic flammable nature of oil), then it follows that the rest of the power's attributes and behavior was balanced around the power igniting every time it was hit with an appropriate damage type.

Which means that currently, the power is underperforming; not that it will overperform after a bug fix is applied.

So I still don't understand why anything should be given up in exchange for a bug fix.

Yes, Oil Slick is really nice when it works. But it's not fantastically overpowered. It takes three damage SOs to kill even-con minions, over a period of time in which you're subject to return fire. It's got a nuke-class recharge time of 3 minutes base. It's not buffable in Issue 7 (nor do I think it should be or needs to be). It's not an instant, risk-free "I win" button; nor is it an "every fight" power unless you're balancing your checkbook while playing, or if you're teamed with Kinetics/Empathy users (in which case this is fine, as teamwork is supposed to make us better, stronger, faster). In short, Oil Slick has a nice offensive "oomph" which is balanced by other limiting factors; it's not balanced around a bug.

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I'm still not clear on where you're coming from. Are you saying that you feel Oil Slick NEEDS to be nerfed as part of a bug fix because you THINK it will be nerfed later on?

Here's the way I see it.

If Oil Slick's failure to ignite is a bug, which it certainly seems to be from _Castle_'s comment (not to mention the basic flammable nature of oil), then it follows that the rest of the power's attributes and behavior was balanced around the power igniting every time it was hit with an appropriate damage type.

Which means that currently, the power is underperforming; not that it will overperform after a bug fix is applied.

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Many things have been nerfed for much less. It's powerful enough to draw the eye of the nerf bat, and perhaps rightly so.

I'm saying this is just less aparent when the set is not performing correctly.


However with a fixed set, and people already starting to warm up to it, it very well might be FOTM soon, things like this get more focus.


Anything +4 down oil slick provides a good amount of dmg mitigation and a large amount of dmg.


I really am worried it's gonna get a nerf sooner or later. Partly because I don't think it's fully balanced if it's fixed. Partly because there have been bigger nerfs for less reason.



But as far as my experience goes, against anything within your normal lvl range, oil slick overperforms WHEN it lights. It's been my opinion that lighting sporadically has kept it balanced.

Every three minutes, you can kill white con minions.

Wait, hold the press, defenders everywhere are in awe.

Or, maybe not. Do you know anyone who fights White con minions in a team? I don't, and I certainly don't consider TA to be the best soloing defender set. Ergo, this set really helps improve a teams damage output, it doesn't outshine other sets. Hey, it's almost balanced.

Is there something really amazeing about killing white minions every three seconds? Should we nerf Rain of Arrows too?

Okay, putting all jibes aside, don't worry about the set being nerfed. It doesn't overperform even when you use every single power in the set and that includes EMP arrow. It still has room for buffs and that is if Oil Slick lights every time without requireing an attack to set it off.

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Okay, putting all jibes aside, don't worry about the set being nerfed. It doesn't overperform even when you use every single power in the set and that includes EMP arrow.

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The set does not overperform, We've been trying to get it fixed for a lil bit now, though EMP Arrow DOES get scary....but the recharge is scarier.

Oil slick as it is now does not overperform. An oil slick that lights every time would IMO.

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Is there something really amazeing about killing white minions every three seconds? Should we nerf Rain of Arrows too?

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Rain of Arrows is a nuke power, final tier in the secondary. It's only feather it has in it's cap IS dmg. Oil slick in addittion to having hefty area dmg, which seems to ignore the aoe cap of 16 from my experience, also provides modest dmg mitigation.



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Or, maybe not. Do you know anyone who fights White con minions in a team?

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Nope but oil slick is far from useless vs higher cons, it is effective until about +4. But for +4 and down it's golden.

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I don't, and I certainly don't consider TA to be the best soloing defender set.

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It's not and prolly never will be. Oil slick makes every other fight cake, and the rest of your abilities, on test, will see you thru the other half.

VS difficult spawns you have the IWIN of EMP Arrow and oil slick. Boss in there? Ice Arrow stacked on the EMP.


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Ergo, this set really helps improve a teams damage output, it doesn't outshine other sets. Hey, it's almost balanced.

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I agree it's close, though we disagree on the final steps.



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It still has room for buffs and that is if Oil Slick lights every time without requireing an attack to set it off.

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The major thing I disagree on with this is it auto-lighting. I don't want it to automatically light, I want the control of lighting it in my hands....only reliable. Also the imbalances in secondary and lighting i want fixed.

In many situations lighting it can be a bad idea. Yes, I realize team mate might light it for ya, but you have a lil extra time to deal with the situation.

When is lighting Oil Slick a bad thing? Try really hard to think of something besides simpy pulling out the Agro issue because every instance of an agro issue is very specific and deals more with playstyle and game environment than an issue with the set.

Oil Slick lasts the same amount of time on the ground regardless of whether you light it or not. So when do you not want it to light?

The aggro issue might be specific but it is very important on teams where you are NOT one of the higher lvls.

There have been many instances in both PUG's and and a well oiled group I team with regularly that I simply do not lay oil slick until a good ways into the fight because I know it will be a for sure death warrent if it lights.

As it stands right now I can afford to lay it in several situations because the delay in lighting will give me the time to prepare for the aggro. Also in teams that have no convieniant way to light it for you I can use it as crowd control and not really worry about the aggro.



Part of the big deal in laying it and it lighting is the fact that it exceed the aoe cap. I'm fairly sure on this. I have had two tankers massively herd and let them firmly get aggro and laid slick only to get plowed OR play a dicey game of suriving the aggro I picked up above and beyond thier aggro caps.

I wasn't seeing any in the area of the oil slick not slipping or being burnt.


With all the EM tankers out there oil slick tends to get lit yes, but you can make it stay unlit by placement in such cases and still use it. Same applies to fire tankers.

Fire blasters you can't do much about, you throw a slick out there it's GOING to light.


So yeah, in addittion to concept I do have a valid reason to have oil slick required to be manually lit. They just need to balance the ease and ability of lighting it among secondaries.


Where is my zappy arrow?


I don't see why i need a reason besides aggro. If your a defender aggro management is extremely important for you own survival if your capable of drawing it.

I'd rather not have to pass up on using oil slick more than I already do because I know it will get me plowed, But then I see oil slick as a good defender tool as well. Not just a buncha dmg ticks in a locational aoe.

I've yet to get a TA up high enough for oil slick, so I ask:
Is oil slick a location power, like a rain, or an AoE, like ball lightning? I don't think locations are subject to AoE limitations; if something wanders in to the location area with time remaining, it gets affected. At least that's my understanding.

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So yeah, in addittion to concept I do have a valid reason to have oil slick required to be manually lit. They just need to balance the ease and ability of lighting it among secondaries.


Where is my zappy arrow?

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I would be happy with them making Blazing Arrow a very small (say 5') AoE of 0.1pt of Fire dmg. That way I could attack something and light the slick at the same time.

Or add Toxic dmg to the list of things that will light it so I can start it with Acid Arrow.

Or add/change Explosive Arrow to do part energy or fire dmg. But this is my least favorite since most Archers skip this power.

So it all comes down to agro.

Frankly, you can controll the agro you recieve from Oil Slick. What kind of team your on will also make a big difference as well.

If you are going to claim that agro is a problem, start listing the specific instances, includeing team make-up, playstyle, and environment that caused you a problem.

In my typical uses of Oil Slick, I already have all the agro I am going to get anyway from my other debuffs. In a team, especially a team with either scrappers or tanks, agro from oil slick is not an issue for me. Between Glue Arrow and Poison Gas Arrow, I am not takeing that much damage and there is more than enough time for any of the melee players to get any agro I have gotten from Oil Slick off of me. Assumeing I am even in line of sight of anything agroed on me.

In teams without people to run in and grab agro, my debuffs are again just as likely to draw agro simply because there is no one else for the agro to go to. My AoE debuffs don't make the enemy want to come out and love me and if the rest of the team is not made of AoE damage dealers, alot of agro is going my way anyway. Which makes the damage that Oil Slick puts out really important since it allows the team to kill the mobs faster and thus makes me safer.

Now those are just two quick examples that are not specific of how I see Oil Slick and the agro it generates. If another TA user out there has different experiences, I would love to know about it.

Frankly, if agro is your only problem with Oil Slick lighting every time, it seems like a personal playstyle issue. Which is fine, but that doesn't mean that suiting the set to your playstyle is balanced. Currently, haveing oil slick not light everytime and haveing it's usefullness based on what secondary or primary you pick is not balanced. It is, underpowered in fact. Playstyles can be changed by the player, what the set is programmed to do cannot.

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I've yet to get a TA up high enough for oil slick, so I ask:
Is oil slick a location power, like a rain, or an AoE, like ball lightning? I don't think locations are subject to AoE limitations; if something wanders in to the location area with time remaining, it gets affected. At least that's my understanding.

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Oil Slick Arrow is a location based power. Any outside mobs that wander into it are affected.

And now, for my follow up post with testing results that I promised a couple of nights ago. I intended to do it that very night, but the character copy tool was having problems.

I respecced my TA/A archer again, Sgt. Scorpion, current security level 27. Without going into too much detail, I'll just quickly summarize by saying that the slotting for blazing arrow remained the same as my last test run: 1 acc/3 damage/1 recharge/1 end reducer, all SO's. The only key difference is that the enhancements were all +3's, as opposed to them being even level before.

I ran a total of 3 missions, all a mixture of Tsoo and Family, with the average mob level being 24. All 3 of them took place inside warehouse maps. This is currently an old story arc that I'm in the midst of completing, but I seriously doubt that fighting even level mobs would have anything to do with whether or not the slick would light. I made every effort to use it as frequently as possible, which generally was whenever there were 2 or more foes in a mob.

And now (drum roll please) the results. And they were nothing short of spectacular.

Mission 1: 9 attempts, 9 hits, 0 misses, 9 ignitions. Lighting percentage= 100%.

Mission 2: 10 attempts, 10 hits, 0 misses, 10 ignitions. Lighting percentage= 100%.

Mission 3: 8 attempts, 8 hits, 0 misses, 8 ignitions. Lighting percentage= 100%.

Average ignition rate throughout all 3 missions: 100%.

This is a complete turnaround, to say the least, from my initial test experience when the 5/31 patch hit the TR. At that point, I ran a string of 20 OS activations, only to have it light once. Others have since reported on the streakiness of the power, but I have yet to get results that even come close to that test run that night. One caveat that I just thought of though in reference to the mission level: It allowed me to move relatively quickly from start to finish. Running through an even level mission would probably mean that I would be proceeding at a somewhat slower pace, giving me that many more opportunities to test it. This could very well skew the results- in other words, more opportunities would possibly mean I wouldn't receive a perfect hit/ignite ratio. I could go to Croatoa, where I should be able to receive even level missions right away.

Another thing that impressed me was that I was never in a situation where I was even close to running out of endurance (my archer's build is currently stamina free). Again, this will be somewhat different upon running even level missions, but it's very likely that the omission of the fitness pool will translate over to his live build once I7 finally comes down the pipe. The situation will only improve once he hits his 30s and has the opportunity to slot end reducers in all his attacks.

All in all, I'm very pleased with the performance of Oil Slick at the moment. It very well may be bugged in regards to long streaks without igniting it, or it may somehow be some sort of streakbreaker coming into play, as I surmised before. I'm not really sure, but overall I would think it's performance now is world's better compared to what it was in the past.

One more quick question for everyone (in particular the TA vets that have been responding and testing in this thread): what are your thoughts in regards to 3 slotting Flash Arrow for debuffs? IIRC doing so would only take you from a 7.5 to 13% rate, which is hardly gamebreaking. My current position is that the slots are better spent elsewhere, but I'm curious as to how others feel about it.

Edit: I should add that during my above test run it's performance was very subpar. On a few occasions I attracted unwanted aggro, despite flashing one mob and attacking another one nearby.

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f you are going to claim that agro is a problem, start listing the specific instances, includeing team make-up, playstyle, and environment that caused you a problem.

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Any instance in which your team is capable of recieving negative aggro. IE tankers+controllers can't control 100% of the mobs, and the remaining mobs are not immeadiately delt with.



Nearly any herd.



Situations in which you might not HAVE a tanker, and the controllers cannot hanlde 100% of the mobs.


Situations where the tanker literally cannot survive all of the aggro needed to keep you safe.


Situations where you get an extra group or ambush unexpectedly.


There are more which i cannot think of.

Yes i know these really SEEM like select situations but I do not ONLY team with people I know. Sometimes I hit PUG's and stuff and things are usually not as good. Levels and class mixes vary alot as do skill levels.

As things are I have the option of using oil slick as a defender power ice slick and not light it if I so choose, and that has come in handy more than once.


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In my typical uses of Oil Slick, I already have all the agro I am going to get anyway from my other debuffs. In a team, especially a team with either scrappers or tanks, agro from oil slick is not an issue for me. Between Glue Arrow and Poison Gas Arrow, I am not takeing that much damage and there is more than enough time for any of the melee players to get any agro I have gotten from Oil Slick off of me. Assumeing I am even in line of sight of anything agroed on me.

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1st off the dmg from oil slick alone prolly generates more aggro by itself than all of your debuffs combined.

2nd your playstyle would seem to involve alot of debuff and hide. VALID yes, and good for letting your front line secure aggro. But you effectively take any further contribution out of the fight while you hide.

Also teams do not always have frontline enough to handle things unless your going vs easily handlable mobs.

If your fighting no challenge mobs then aggro, control, tankage, etc are all extremely devalued. Nothing really matters that much if they arn't threat.


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In teams without people to run in and grab agro, my debuffs are again just as likely to draw agro simply because there is no one else for the agro to go to. My AoE debuffs don't make the enemy want to come out and love me and if the rest of the team is not made of AoE damage dealers, alot of agro is going my way anyway. Which makes the damage that Oil Slick puts out really important since it allows the team to kill the mobs faster and thus makes me safer.

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You know, I walked into this. I really should have said against challenging missions, IE things that cannot be immeadiately vaped by the extreme aoe dmg of oil slick + a lil support.....oh wait that's pretty much all but bosses +2 and down.



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Frankly, if agro is your only problem with Oil Slick lighting every time, it seems like a personal playstyle issue.

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If i have to run and hide half the time I use oil slick it really takes away from the power to me, because it takes away my secondary and aid other and such in the process.

Playstyle issue....yes. But it would be a issue with a proposed change not the way it is currently. That's pretty key to me.

I'd wager you wouldn't mind having to shoot the slick i you could use aimed shot or snap shot to light it instead of blazing, and other sets were able to light it.


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Currently, haveing oil slick not light everytime and haveing it's usefullness based on what secondary or primary you pick is not balanced.

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I agree on both counts, but it does NOT have to be auto-light as soon as you fire it. having oil light itself is as silly as having a flaming arrow fail to ignite it or MISS a 50 foot slick.


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It is, underpowered in fact.

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While i agree on that in realtion to other sets not lighting it...i must clarify a bit.

While I may believe a 100% ignition success rate is overpowered, which is merely my opinion of course, I have a hard time seeing the current implementation as UNDERpowered.

If you wanted to balance it as a pure control I would wager it's as comparable to ice slick as ice arrow is to block of ice.

HOWEVER, it also has a good bit of dmg.


I wouldn't call it overpowered in it's current form, but I wouldn't call it underpowered either.

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One more quick question for everyone (in particular the TA vets that have been responding and testing in this thread): what are your thoughts in regards to 3 slotting Flash Arrow for debuffs? IIRC doing so would only take you from a 7.5 to 13% rate, which is hardly gamebreaking. My current position is that the slots are better spent elsewhere, but I'm curious as to how others feel about it.

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You're not going to get a 13% debuff with Flash Arrow. The base debuff value (for Defenders) is 6.25% (I believe this is the number _Castle_ is quoted as providing; if I'm remembering wrong someone please correct me). With three to-hit debuffs you get to about 9.75%. I can think of much better things to do with those extra two slots than getting an extra 1.125% to-hit buff per slot (the default slot gets you to 7.5%).

I'll likely be keeping Flash Arrow in my build for the -perception, and under the logic that some debuff is better than no debuff. But I'm certainly not giving any more slots than it comes with.

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One more quick question for everyone (in particular the TA vets that have been responding and testing in this thread): what are your thoughts in regards to 3 slotting Flash Arrow for debuffs? IIRC doing so would only take you from a 7.5 to 13% rate, which is hardly gamebreaking. My current position is that the slots are better spent elsewhere, but I'm curious as to how others feel about it.

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You're not going to get a 13% debuff with Flash Arrow. The base debuff value (for Defenders) is 6.25% (I believe this is the number _Castle_ is quoted as providing; if I'm remembering wrong someone please correct me). With three to-hit debuffs you get to about 9.75%. I can think of much better things to do with those extra two slots than getting an extra 1.125% to-hit buff per slot (the default slot gets you to 7.5%).

I'll likely be keeping Flash Arrow in my build for the -perception, and under the logic that some debuff is better than no debuff. But I'm certainly not giving any more slots than it comes with.

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That's even worse than I thought. I just have a debuff in the initial slot, and it certainly isn't getting any more.

I need to clarify, because some of us come at this game from a blaster first background and some obviously do not.

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IE tankers+controllers can't control 100% of the mobs, and the remaining mobs are not immeadiately delt with.


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See, I consider this to be my normal playing experience. I have never had an issue with agro. I should clarify that I get hurt, many times over the course of a mission, but when I have problems with agro, the only problem that matters is a face plant. Ergo, I don't have a problem with agro from my experiences with Oil Slick.

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2nd your playstyle would seem to involve alot of debuff and hide. VALID yes, and good for letting your front line secure aggro. But you effectively take any further contribution out of the fight while you hide.


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I hate players that hide. I am used to playing sets with massive AoE that have NO DAMAGE MITIGATION. You tend to find your own ways to mitigate damage since normaly the tank is not controlling all the mobs and frequently on PuGs the tank and the controller are controlling the same mobs. This carried over to my TA very well. I don't need to SIT in front of the enemy to attack them. Moveing and shooting is a really good thing. Removeing onself from the LoS of the majority of mobs after you have debuffed them is a pretty good idea.

Now I didn't say go run and hide and let the team handle things. I said, remove yourself from LoS from the majority of the mobs. If you need to pop out and Freeze a guy, immobilize a guy cool. If you have a handy pillar, rock, corner, tree, hell even a parking meter, you can keep some mobs from being able to hit you while you can peek around the corner and nail the other mobs. Generally, this will take the edge off any encounter and if there are other players on your team, they will have gotten some of the agro of the mob and the agro will be spread out. You can then just pop out and do whatever you want. You may get hurt, but we are not trying to go for the perfect defender keeping everyone at full health.

Oh, and Oil Slick works wonders if you have a blaster on your team against up to +4 mobs. Slot slows in Glue Arrow to keep them in the slick. Blaster AoE + Oil Slick = dead minions real fast.

I realize you group regularly with the same group of people and also play in PuGs. On my TA, I played in PuGs exclusively just about into my 30s. Then I joined a new SG and picked up CoV so I switched over to villains. Agro is a general problem for TA, Oil Slick has been no more dangerous to my character than any of the other powers. Actually, it is the only power I can use other than EMP Arrow as part of an Alpha Strike while in LoS of high level mobs so that makes it actually safer than any of the other debuffs.

I was going to say, Disruption Arrow is a much bigger death sentence than Oil Slick. At least some of them are flopping around on the slick and unable to return fire. If I fire off disruption before the tank has got aggro or the controller has applied controls, that's usually the start of a rapid downward spiral.

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I realize you group regularly with the same group of people and also play in PuGs. On my TA, I played in PuGs exclusively just about into my 30s. Then I joined a new SG and picked up CoV so I switched over to villains. Agro is a general problem for TA, Oil Slick has been no more dangerous to my character than any of the other powers. Actually, it is the only power I can use other than EMP Arrow as part of an Alpha Strike while in LoS of high level mobs so that makes it actually safer than any of the other debuffs.

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Suprisingly my aggro issues with oil slick are typically worse on the more organized groups, because they go for bigger and MORE mobs.

But i've learned to be selective about when to use oil slick and sometimes have to not use it completely.

Learned this from having all my debuffs out, including oil slick, and i'm fine. Then either I or a team mate lights slick and suddenly I have several ticked off foes.

+2's and higher really hurt.


With herding.....oil slick becomes a mid battle tool at best. You basically have to wait until the first "wave" of enemies dies or your oil slick will aggro more than your team can save you from.

On PUG's I typically draw alot of aggro with the slick dmg unless I have sufficient tankage and sometimes even then lvl variance and skill levels throw a monkey wrench in that.


I'm just saying, make oil slick easy to light for all secondaries (i don't consider blazing arrow easy to light) and you won't need auto light, plus you get a lil more versitility.




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I was going to say, Disruption Arrow is a much bigger death sentence than Oil Slick. At least some of them are flopping around on the slick and unable to return fire. If I fire off disruption before the tank has got aggro or the controller has applied controls, that's usually the start of a rapid downward spiral.

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In teams against higher lvl foes oil slick aggro far outweighs my debuff aggro.

Far as you firing disruption first? Hehe I nearly always fire my slick before disruption when i use both together.

Though first thing I fire if i'm starting early is flash arrow. 10% sucks for a defender debuff but it's 10% that could possibly save my life, if things are close that is.

The last thing I want TA balanced around is herding.

I don't think the developers are balancing around herding either, if anything, they are balanceing the game in order that herding doesn't happen. If not all sets work great for those that gather up large groups of mobs (definition of herding and a large group differs from person to person of course) I can live with that.

Like I said before, it sounds like a playstyle issue more than a balance issue. Which means that there is no reason from a balanced set standpoint that Oil Slick doesn't self light. That change is a heck of alot easier than changeing other powers around just to light oil slick.

Haveing it wait a couple seconds before lighting was something I suggested a long time ago and has probably been forgotten but that was always how I imagined the power would work.

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The last thing I want TA balanced around is herding.

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How do you say it, herding is just an extreme example of what happens many times in normal groups.

Oil slick getting me hurt or killed in the normal group would get me pasted in about 2 seconds in herding . The problem is the same jsut pushed to an extreme.



I've mentioned that i've used it and had problems in all sorts of groups, herding being prolly half of my organized groups but still that mebe half of half.

I would not focus on herding as my reason for changing something as that is something that's really not intended by the devs.

So don't try to peg it all on herding. There are times in 90% of groups I would prefer to be able to launch and unlit slick and then have the option of lighting from there.

My experience 180% opposite to yours then.

I have not been dropped by agro from Oil Slick, although DE have come close

Generally, against Nemisis and Carnies it is Oil Slick + Glue for the win. Well, Glue then Oil Slick in the case of Nemesis. Stupid Jaegers.

I just don't know how our experiences can be so different with this power. I mean, this is a power I open with to MITIGATE damage from agro.

As a side point how good is Fire Control/TA now with the I7 change, as it seems I can stack/combo a few of the powers from both sets?

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My experience 180% opposite to yours then.

I have not been dropped by agro from Oil Slick, although DE have come close

Generally, against Nemisis and Carnies it is Oil Slick + Glue for the win. Well, Glue then Oil Slick in the case of Nemesis. Stupid Jaegers.

I just don't know how our experiences can be so different with this power. I mean, this is a power I open with to MITIGATE damage from agro.

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See this is the exact same feeling and stance I had vs flash arrow because to this day I have not had 1 problem with it. Using it or not using it has made 0 differance in my aggro gained.

Yet others have problems with it.



I can sit here and tell you right now for a fact that the dmg oil slick does has an uncanny knack for aggroing enemies on me unless I have a nice tanker buffer, and that aggro is usually painful, poison gas arrow/flash arrow/glue arrow on.

The knockdown and dmg mitgation is quite true, I only have the issue after ignition.