Official Thread for Trick Arrow changes
By
Adamh_77,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 17:05 in Developers' Corner
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also single target immobs really do nothing for survivability, and dont nearly compare to the other level 1 powers.
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Excuse me? A single target immob is perfect for keeping heavy hitting melee and short range attackers away (shotguns, flamethrowers, etc). I learned that trick early on when I could take out a Hellion Buckshot without taking any damage by keeping him from getting too close. Staying out of range of mobs helps keep my defender alive a lot longer.
A TA defender doesn't play the same as other defenders. It's a whole different game and if you don't learn how to play you'll never be satisfied with it
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also single target immobs really do nothing for survivability, and dont nearly compare to the other level 1 powers.
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Excuse me? A single target immob is perfect for keeping heavy hitting melee and short range attackers away (shotguns, flamethrowers, etc). I learned that trick early on when I could take out a Hellion Buckshot without taking any damage by keeping him from getting too close. Staying out of range of mobs helps keep my defender alive a lot longer.
A TA defender doesn't play the same as other defenders. It's a whole different game and if you don't learn how to play you'll never be satisfied with it
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I have a 25 TA/arc, I know what it can and cant do. Single target immobs are widely considered borderline worthless. And certainly doesnt help as much as an aoe heal which kin, rad and dark all have.
Now Im not saying we need a heal, but we need something better than this. Even controllers consider the single target immobs throw aways and those do damage.
TA has no heal or team buff, it needs to be alot better than any other set at debuffing, but both rad and dark outdebuff it. And they not only have a heal, and red, but rad has a buff too. Heck rad even has a aoe hold same as TA. And the best team buff in the game, a acc debuff thats incredible a great slow, and an awesome res debuff.
TA just isnt comparing. And I really think the fault lies in a few key low level junk powers flash arrow, entangling arrow.
In order for a single target immob to really be of any benefit, it has to debuff recharge, a la web grenade. And we all know that currently that's where TA falters.
On it's own, entangling doesn't do much for you since mobs virtually keep the same attack rate they had before they were immobilized. But again, since glue a) grounds fliers, and b) can be used at least once a fight, entangling now plays a bigger role in a TA build versus before. While the fact that it's outperformed by a level one blaster secondary power is indeed an issue and certainly needs to be rectified, it still has its uses.
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In order for a single target immob to really be of any benefit, it has to debuff recharge
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The majority of the immobilizations in the game don't have recharge debuffs, and they're all generally useful for various reasons.
Personally, I see Entangling as a source of damage mitigation. Whether it debuffs anything at all or not, it's still capable of keeping a foe at a distance, and distance = ranged attacks. That's generally a 50% reduction (or better) in the damage a mob can inflict, since mob ranged attacks are almost always weaker than mob melee attacks.
I see value in Entangling. It keeps my squaw alive.
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Before the changes on test, my 24 TA/A COULDN'T solo on Heroic. Now I can, but needing to reapply the debuffs mid-combat is extremely tedious. At least with toggles I'd turn them on and they'd stay up.
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I could always solo my TA/A on heroic, but it is both slow and many times dangerous.
Test server helps but animation times and the need to apply several powers to be safe really hurts.
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I have a 25 TA/arc, I know what it can and cant do. Single target immobs are widely considered borderline worthless. And certainly doesnt help as much as an aoe heal which kin, rad and dark all have.
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Single target immobs are good in the low lvls, solo, pinning AV's and perhaps in small teams.
On most teams though a single target immob is nothing you'll be using.
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Personally, I see Entangling as a source of damage mitigation. Whether it debuffs anything at all or not, it's still capable of keeping a foe at a distance, and distance = ranged attacks. That's generally a 50% reduction (or better) in the damage a mob can inflict, since mob ranged attacks are almost always weaker than mob melee attacks.
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The problem I've always had with this stance is that a lot of mobs(I'd say probably 30-40% of the mobs in the game, at least) are designed to be ranged attackers, and they have several ranged attacks which, while less damaging individually than their melee attack, they can fire off in near-constant chains, where they mostly only have one melee attack which they can only fire every so often. A lot of times I prefer closing to melee with my blaster so that the mobs will switch to their single melee attack, and I can usually kill them before they get it off more than twice, where it might take me two or three whole attack chains(theirs) at range. (Also, at melee I can use my very high damage melee and short-range attacks.) Not to mention that most mezzing mobs have their mezzes in either their ranged or their melee attacks, rarely both, and mostly ranged, so by closing to melee you lock them out of their mezzes completely.
[Edited to remove some pointless(and, after some research, apparently fallacious) commentary that probably would've just started a big argument, which I really don't want to do, especially on this board.]
This has been my experience as well. Many ranged attacks can inflict just as much, if not more damage, as melee attacks. And that was the point of my previous post: often it just isn't enough to keep them at range without noticeably reducing their attack rate. Again, even though entangling alone has a problem in that regard, it's this very reason as to why the key is to use it in conjunction with glue: just keep them pinned inside the glue patch so they won't fire at you as often while you pick them off.
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Before the changes on test, my 24 TA/A COULDN'T solo on Heroic. Now I can, but needing to reapply the debuffs mid-combat is extremely tedious. At least with toggles I'd turn them on and they'd stay up.
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I could always solo my TA/A on heroic, but it is both slow and many times dangerous.
Test server helps but animation times and the need to apply several powers to be safe really hurts.
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I have a 25 TA/arc, I know what it can and cant do. Single target immobs are widely considered borderline worthless. And certainly doesnt help as much as an aoe heal which kin, rad and dark all have.
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Single target immobs are good in the low lvls, solo, pinning AV's and perhaps in small teams.
On most teams though a single target immob is nothing you'll be using.
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I'll agree that Entangle is mostly useless on mid-lrg teams. Solo it's a life saver, especially if you play the mob AI against itself. A good trick is to entangle the mob that tries to move into melee, then leave him there while taking out his buddies. Against a three mob spawn I can take the other two down before the entangled one is freed, then I entangle him again and finish him off. And if they all charge, that's what the glue arrow is for.
As for speed, what attacks did you take? I've got TA/Archery and I move through mobs pretty quickly. On the TA side when solo I pretty much stick to Entangle, Glue, Ice for crowd control (I have more, just never use them solo). On the Archery side I have Snap, Aimed, Blazing. These three are slotted 1 acc 3 dam 1 end with Aimed and Blazing also having 1 recharge as well. I found that it was just faster and easier to immobolize/hold or slow a spawn and just mow them down quickly then, then spend time launching a bunch of debuffs. When teamed I find myself using my other TA debuff powers a lot more since there are other people responsible for dealing out the damage. I just make it easier for them to do that.
For dmg I have Snap Shot, Blazing Arrow, Fistful of Arrows, and Ranged shot.
Ranged shot/blazing arrow is a even con minion 2 shotter depending on resistances.
Fistful is extremely helpful. Snap shot just gets squeezed in between like everything.
My main problem solo is endurance issues, but I am not gonna fix them until I7 comes out and I have an accurate idea of where i stand solo.
In fact with poison gas arrow and glue arrow changes soloing should change quite a bit.
My dmg is NOT all that bad, but there are defintely limits preventing quick soloing.
I would like everyone to remember this and consider it when they think about how good TA should be.
As much as a power like entangle can hinder the enemy, every second that you spend in the animation hinders your offense. This is not true of /TA combinations of either Masterminds or Controllers and is unique to defenders.
In other words, you lower your damage output to lower your opponents damage output. It has been for this reason that I have been pretty upset with controllers getting the /TA set. Masterminds having the set borders on broken but the villains need something like this set among their sets. It should have been a corruptor set, but that was not to be.
In anycase, it is something to consider when talking about balancing out TA and also talking about the damage output that you prevent from the enemy or put out yourself. TA seems to be built around sacrificing damage in order to prevent or increase damage. The way Oil Slick works is another example although a rather extreme example.
The above is what I have been keeping in mind as I made my suggestions over the course of this past month or two. Anyway, I just wanted to chime in on something perhaps not talked about as much as it should be talked about.
to all the folks that can get on test...
how is entangling arrow working for -jump in pvp... how long does it last? as long as air sup does -fly? in bb tonight, it seemed to flash on and right back off of the villains buff bar they said
id kinda like more targetted location powers for ta
mebbe glue arrow as a target loc, instead of target enemy
thoughts?
also for archery... it would be nice if the second attack was.. say... poison tipped arrow.. and it was essentially like gloom, with the longish dot, but 1 chunk of lethal, and an equal amount of poison dmg dot over 5 secs?
thoughts>?
This is another problem I hadnt considered.
Even though I had been heavily bashing traps for the same reason, its great as a MM power, but lacking for a corruptor because of long animation.
I just started my thugs/ta test and i was having no troubles, but testing my TA/arch I was still having as much trouble.
This set is going to be a problem for the devs for a long time.
Zen Concern brings up a point I've been wondering about for a while now--why are there no Archery/Trick Arrow Corruptor sets? Seems like a fairly balanced, fairly neato thing to have for CoV. Has there ever been an explanation for this?
Dr. Nemesis
Imperator and Founder
The Nemesis Council
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Masterminds having the set borders on broken but the villains need something like this set among their sets. It should have been a corruptor set, but that was not to be.
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Heh, totally agree on that... I got a TA/A up to 38 before I finally gave in that TA just sucked for Defenders. When CoV came out, I told everyone to avoid TA for Masterminds like the plague, figuring it'd be just as bad as it is for Defenders.
Then I finally made a Ninja/TA MM... oh my gawd... I've never seen such an overpowered combo. The two sets mesh together so perfectly, it's sickening. I rather think that TA was designed for MM's, and just given to Defenders as a bone... But, that's just a conspiracy theory, hehe.
Damage Proc Mini-FAQ
Just noticed Damage Proc Mini-FAQ wasn't working with new forums, it's been updated.
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Zen Concern brings up a point I've been wondering about for a while now--why are there no Archery/Trick Arrow Corruptor sets? Seems like a fairly balanced, fairly neato thing to have for CoV. Has there ever been an explanation for this?
Dr. Nemesis
Imperator and Founder
The Nemesis Council
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/Agreed
After having so much fun with TA/Archery, I was hoping to try the reverse.
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Masterminds having the set borders on broken but the villains need something like this set among their sets. It should have been a corruptor set, but that was not to be.
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Heh, totally agree on that... I got a TA/A up to 38 before I finally gave in that TA just sucked for Defenders. When CoV came out, I told everyone to avoid TA for Masterminds like the plague, figuring it'd be just as bad as it is for Defenders.
Then I finally made a Ninja/TA MM... oh my gawd... I've never seen such an overpowered combo. The two sets mesh together so perfectly, it's sickening. I rather think that TA was designed for MM's, and just given to Defenders as a bone... But, that's just a conspiracy theory, hehe.
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I have played several MMs, and although /TA works well for a MM, by no means would I say it is overpowered. MMs are overpowered in PvE, esp solo. I tried /TA because /Traps and /Dark were way too easy.
Anyway, the reason that I think /TA works for a MM has been stated. The animation times do not affect a MM at all, since you have pets to do damage and manage aggro. I can pretty much spend an entire fight just debuffing and reapplying debuffs. Many times I have felt for the /TA Defenders that must choose to only Debuff, or lose some debuffs for some offense.
With that said, I really think that if they lowered the animation times, it would help Defenders quite a bit. It also wouldnt overpower MMs, since we can not use that extra time to increase our DPS as a Defender could. Not sure how well that would work for a Controller though.
Anyway...the other problem is /TA is weak early. Since Flash Arrow is mainly meant for a stealth now, I would suggest moving it to Disruption Arrows Slot, moving Disruption to Acid Arrow, and moving Acid arrow to the Flash Spot. That give a /TA earlier useful debuffing, and a more situational power is moved back later.
Okay, this is for those interested in participating in Operation: Same Mission, Different Defender.
How does Thursday evening (5/18/06) at 7:00 p.m. Eastern sound?
Ideally I'd like to make sure we meet the following criteria:
<ul type="square">[*]The group mission should be at least in the high-20s or low-30s[*]Sidekicking/Exemplaring is fine for everyone except the TA/ Defender and his replacement(s); I don't want fewer powers for a SK or extra slots for an Exemplar skewing the results in any direction[*]If possible, I'd like the same player to run the TA/ defender and replacement(s); this may not be possible to do unless someone has multiple defenders (including TA/) at the same level[*]I'd like all players to be running HeroStats (unstable version for test), so that after each run of the mission we can record damage taken for each character[*]I'd certainly prefer to not have a controller for this test; any defendery overlap (or elimination of need for defendering due to controllering) is a factor I don't want present[*]At the very least, I'd like to have Radiation/, Storm/, and either Force Field/, Sonic/ or Kinetics/ as replacement defenders. The first two to compare debuff sets, and FF/ or Kin/ to compare to buff sets.[*]Anything else that would help make a clear comparison that I've not listed here[/list]The basic idea is going to be to have a team do a mission to almost completion; i.e., leave a blinkie unclicked. We'll do it once with a TA/ defender (and no other defenders or controllers); then again replacing the TA/ with other defender types. For each run we'll record time taken to complete the mission (except for the blinkie), number of deaths, amount of damage taken per character, and anything else we decide is relevant. 
Whew.
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Although all TA powers are fired from the same bow, they have varying ranges. You can be close enough to fire off one power, but not another. They should all be consistent in range since the delivery method is the same.
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While I agree this would be convenient, your reasoning is faulty. Yes, they are all being delivered by the same bow, but you are not taking into account the differences in the projectiles. Even if you assume the arrows are all fletched identically, which would be highly unlikely, the arrows will be weighted differently due to the various gadget arrowheads. Different weight + same bow = different range.
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From the real-world standpoint, this is true, but incomplete.
Even more than the weight issue, which can be compensated for to some degree by angle of attack (i.e., if the weight drops your projectile more rapidly, aim higher), the factor that you cannot compensate for is air resistance.
Take a hard look at some of the arrows that Manticore fires in the comics. Those blunt-nosed goodies with the barrel-shaped heads will fly like a lead zepellin. Seriously. They will drop to the ground within ten feet....no matter what kind of propulsion system you use.
Weight is an issue, bow strength is an issue, but the shape of the arrow will have much more to do with its actual flight characteristics, including range, than either of those factors. Yes, you could have a series of different arrows that would fly totally differently from the same bow. In fact, you could hardly avoid it.
The only reason arrows have fletching at all is because of the way it affects flight, including distance. Those little bits of bird fluff have a *huge* effect....imagine what a barrel on the front end would do. Manti is extremely clever...or just plain lucky...to be able to fire those things without them going end-over-end....
I'll [i]almost certainly[/i] be happy with I7....."SOON(tm)"
Too bad "Maturity" isn't an Enhanceable power.
Anybody with a bow is okay in my book. ;-)
@Linuial
Starfire/Hellfire
Liberty, Infinity & Protector
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Okay, this is for those interested in participating in Operation: Same Mission, Different Defender.
How does Thursday evening (5/18/06) at 7:00 p.m. Eastern sound?
Ideally I'd like to make sure we meet the following criteria:
<ul type="square">[*]The group mission should be at least in the high-20s or low-30s[*]Sidekicking/Exemplaring is fine for everyone except the TA/ Defender and his replacement(s); I don't want fewer powers for a SK or extra slots for an Exemplar skewing the results in any direction[*]If possible, I'd like the same player to run the TA/ defender and replacement(s); this may not be possible to do unless someone has multiple defenders (including TA/) at the same level[/list]
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This is a good idea, but these conditions are going to be hard to meet. Even those of us with multiple defenders aren't likely to have them at the same levels. My TA is too low for this (at 19) and my empath is too high (at 50). I have a D3 in the range, however (33), and could tag in for a L33 TA, if we can get one.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
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How does Thursday evening (5/18/06) at 7:00 p.m. Eastern sound?
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Test server?
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Sidekicking/Exemplaring is fine for everyone except the TA/ Defender and his replacement(s); I don't want fewer powers for a SK or extra slots for an Exemplar skewing the results in any direction[*]If possible, I'd like the same player to run the TA/ defender and replacement(s); this may not be possible to do unless someone has multiple defenders (including TA/) at the same level
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50 TA/A and 50 Kin/Elec. Also a 50 Inv/SS tank, 25 Archery/Energy blaster, and 36 PB available, if someone has more defenders or we switch who's defending. The rest of my stable is composed of defenders and controllers (42 dark/dark, 26 ill/rad, 23 grav/ff), or too low to contribute (10 kat/SR).
Oh, I also have a 46 copy of Dancing Hawk on the test server.
Whoops! Yes, this will be on the test server, that way we can evaluate the TA/ changes in a group situation.
My TA/ defender is idling at level 30
My available characters are: 36 Warshade, 34 Blaster, 35 Tanker, 27 Scrapper.
My defender pool is: 44 Dark, 38 Storm, 34 Kinetics, and 30 Trick Arrow. If our team was around level 30, I could use my TA and exemp down the Storm and Kinetics if push came to shove (though I'd rather not have those extra slots factored in).
Luminara, I think the 36 PB is probably a good target. If we can get more mid-30's folks, it'll give a decent indication of the post-SO, pre-Hami game.
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Luminara, I think the 36 PB is probably a good target. If we can get more mid-30's folks, it'll give a decent indication of the post-SO, pre-Hami game.
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I was thinking exactly the same thing about HOs. I would've had to reslot Dancing Hawk rather extensively to bring her to a testable state.
I can get some Carls on the test server to gauge the AV combat situation.
Solarsong, my 36 PB, is at your disposal Thursday evening.
If I get Sand Wasp, my Arch/En blaster, up to 30+ by then, I'll add her to the pool of available characters.
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Luminara, I think the 36 PB is probably a good target. If we can get more mid-30's folks, it'll give a decent indication of the post-SO, pre-Hami game.
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As indicated, I can supply a L33 Dark/Dark defender. I also have a L33 Dark/Dark Scrapper, if we need to fill out a team in that range.
The extra power at 32 would be a definite consideration in comparing the defenders. If you run your L30 TA, the other defenders we sub in should probably refrain from using their L32 power (if they have it).
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
Among my toons, I have a level 34 PB, and a level 30 rad/rad defender that can be used to participate in this. Thurs. evening would be a good time for me as well.
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The problem is, even the poorest AT & build CAN complete a mission, solo, set on heroic or villanous. If that is the baseline, (and I recall a statement by statesman that he expected a 25% attrition rate on teams in missions), then really no set is "underperforming". Don't get me wrong, with the variety of debuffs and soft control TA has, it can be good, but when people put it side by side with kinetics, dark, etc, it clearly IS underperforming...
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Before the changes on test, my 24 TA/A COULDN'T solo on Heroic. Now I can, but needing to reapply the debuffs mid-combat is extremely tedious. At least with toggles I'd turn them on and they'd stay up.
Sgt Liberty - 50 Martial Arts / Super Reflexes
Verdigris Eagle - 50 Archery / Energy Manipulation
Stormeye - 50 Storm Summoning / Electric Blast