Official Thread for Trick Arrow changes

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PvE testing shows Acid Arrow still at 20%. Maybe it's some messed up PvP thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Acid Arrow has a larger debuff in PvP than in PvE, at least for Defenders. Controllers and Mastermind PVE & PVP values match.

[/ QUOTE ]

O_O

>.>

<.<

*tip-toes into Siren's Call*

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere, stalkerstalkerstalker...

[/ QUOTE ]

Nerf TA!

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Slow enhancements can effect many different things, and each of them is displayed, even if the final values are the same. I kicked that to engineering earlier to day to see if there is an easy way of condensing things.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a power/enhancement mechanic issue, _Castle_. It's the same problem that's causing accuracy enhancement values to not appear in the tooltips. Buggy tooltip display. No accuracy values, recharge showing up as slow, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's sort of what I meant. -Recharge is a 'Slow' which is the same vernacular used for -RunSpeed or -FlySpeed. All three will show in the enhancement tool tip as 'Slow' and if all three are present all three are displayed.

As far as the Accuracy goes, I've not looked into that one, but I imagine it's the same sort of thing.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Slow enhancements can effect many different things, and each of them is displayed, even if the final values are the same. I kicked that to engineering earlier to day to see if there is an easy way of condensing things.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a power/enhancement mechanic issue, _Castle_. It's the same problem that's causing accuracy enhancement values to not appear in the tooltips. Buggy tooltip display. No accuracy values, recharge showing up as slow, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's sort of what I meant. -Recharge is a 'Slow' which is the same vernacular used for -RunSpeed or -FlySpeed. All three will show in the enhancement tool tip as 'Slow' and if all three are present all three are displayed.

As far as the Accuracy goes, I've not looked into that one, but I imagine it's the same sort of thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not -recharge that's showing up as slow. It's +recharge. As in, slot a recharge SO in Glue Arrow and it shows "+33% Slow".

I'm looking at my enhancement screen for Dancing Hawk's 50 copy on the test server right now. I have Glue Arrow slotted with 3 Recharge Reduction SOs and nothing else (meaning, i have no Slow enhancements, nor even the slots to place them in). The tooltip says...

|Buff/Debuff Value|
|Slow. . . . 95.7%|

Also doing it on Ice and Oil Slick, and if I had a Slow in Entangling, I bet it'd do it there, too.

I hate to bring this up, but low level TA still seems a little lacking. Flash arrow and entangling arrow seem to be the culprits, Flash arrow doesnt seem to do enough for low level survival, Its acc debuff is just too small, also single target immobs really do nothing for survivability, and dont nearly compare to the other level 1 powers.

For a set thats all debuff and no heal or buff, it better be the best, but its not, rad and dark outperform it without the limitations.

Also disruption arrow compares very poorly to tar patch, tar patch has higher res debuff, lower tier, shorter recharge, added slow. Its not remotly close to being fair. Disruption arrow needs a secondary. Remember TA is a pure debuff, it just cant be even to other sets in debuff, it has to be better, or it will continue to go unplayed.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
PvE testing shows Acid Arrow still at 20%. Maybe it's some messed up PvP thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Acid Arrow has a larger debuff in PvP than in PvE, at least for Defenders. Controllers and Mastermind PVE & PVP values match.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is there a list somewhere of defender powers that actually work *better* in PvP than in PvE? Darkest Night sorta' kinda' does with its damage debuff, but debuffing 50% of base damage (and not touching enhanced damage) generally leaves it worse off in PvP than PvE.

Related question: are you folks looking at bumping up more defender powers in PvP?

[ QUOTE ]
I hate to bring this up, but low level TA still seems a little lacking. Flash arrow and entangling arrow seem to be the culprits, Flash arrow doesnt seem to do enough for low level survival, Its acc debuff is just too small, also single target immobs really do nothing for survivability, and dont nearly compare to the other level 1 powers.

For a set thats all debuff and no heal or buff, it better be the best, but its not, rad and dark outperform it without the limitations.

Also disruption arrow compares very poorly to tar patch, tar patch has higher res debuff, lower tier, shorter recharge, added slow. Its not remotly close to being fair. Disruption arrow needs a secondary. Remember TA is a pure debuff, it just cant be even to other sets in debuff, it has to be better, or it will continue to go unplayed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with pretty much everything here except for your comments on disruption arrow.

Actually, tar patch now has a longer recharge time (90 secs) versus disruption (60 secs). It's true that tar has a greater debuff value, but disruption is available more often, particularly when used in conjunction with hasten. I also could be wrong on this, but I believe disruption has more range (i.e., you're able to stand further away and activate it). I'm not sure as to what other effect you have in mind to add to it, but keep in mind that PGA has sleep, glue has a slow and -recharge, and was consequently buffed with the latest patch, and oil slick has a slow and knockdown component. I honestly think disruption is fine now as is with the lower recharge, and again, since glue is now available for activation much more often, it's easier to use both powers concurrently.

Also, I referred to entangling arrow's -recharge debuff a couple posts of ago as "piddly". While that's certainly an issue that needs to be addressed, glue now grounds fliers, which makes entangling that much more important to any TA build.

[ QUOTE ]
Slow enhancements can effect many different things, and each of them is displayed, even if the final values are the same. I kicked that to engineering earlier to day to see if there is an easy way of condensing things.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It's not a power/enhancement mechanic issue, _Castle_. It's the same problem that's causing accuracy enhancement values to not appear in the tooltips. Buggy tooltip display. No accuracy values, recharge showing up as slow, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Confirmed this with my ice/ice blaster.

I put a slow enhancement in Frost Breath and it read:

Slow: 33%

Slow: 33%

Slow: 33%

I assume the three things that are being slowed are runspeed, flyspeed, and recharge.

Adding a recharge enhancement, the display changed to:

Slow: 33%

Slow: 33%

Slow: 33%

Slow: 33%

So -Recharge and +Recharge are both showing up as "Slow".

Also, it would be a good idea to distinguish between the three effects that the Slow enhancement itself is doing. I.e. change them to "Slow Run Speed", "Slow Flight", "Slow Recharge".

Also, Accuracy was not showing up at all, as others have said.

Shiver has only the default slot with an accuracy enhancement in it, and no tooltip showed up at all.

Aye low LVL TA still needs help.

Glue Arrow and poison gas arrow, though very much improved, cannot pull all the wieght of saving your team early lvls by themselves.


Flash Arrow needs a Respectable ACC debuff (double it?), and entangling Arrow should Have the -recharge of web grenade or slightly better.

[ QUOTE ]
Flash Arrow needs a Respectable ACC debuff (double it?)

[/ QUOTE ]
I maintain that tripling it isn't out of the question. Giving Trick Arrow better debuffs than other debuff sets, to offset the extra non-debuff options those sets get, is what "balance" is about.

[ QUOTE ]
entangling Arrow should Have the -recharge of web grenade or slightly better.

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely. The -recharge of Entangling Arrow was originally removed because "Set already has many recharge debuffs." At the time, "many" meant four. However, at the same time this change was made, the -recharge in Ice Arrow was reduced, and the -recharge in Poison Gas Arrow was removed entirely. We went from "many" -recharge powers to two, and one of those (Ice Arrow) became negligible.

That said, please, please let me reiterate my earlier sentiment that Trick Arrow as a Defender set needs a revamping, not just minor tweaks to invidivual powers for the reasons I outlined earlier in this thread.

[ QUOTE ]
That's sort of what I meant. -Recharge is a 'Slow' which is the same vernacular used for -RunSpeed or -FlySpeed. All three will show in the enhancement tool tip as 'Slow' and if all three are present all three are displayed.

[/ QUOTE ]
_Castle_, the general agreement is that -recharge is not affected by enhancements. If that is the case, it shouldn't be showing up with a separate modifier (since it's not modified); if that isn't the case, I suspect at least the more observant players would have noticed by now.

[ QUOTE ]
_Castle_, the general agreement is that -recharge is not affected by enhancements. If that is the case, it shouldn't be showing up with a separate modifier (since it's not modified); if that isn't the case, I suspect at least the more observant players would have noticed by now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe it is now in I7, then? Worth a test, I think.

AFter testing around a bit with a few powers that have -recharge, I'd say it's..um...weird.

I was testing with Siphon Speed, my friend was using SHout (10 second recharge, not slotted for recharge). With 3 Recharge reductions in Siphon speed, his shout took 12 seconds to recharge (with 1 siphon on him). WIthout any recharge reductions, it took about 14 seconds to recharge (again, with 1 siphon on him).

Need more testing, I'd say. But it seems the recharge reduction enhancements are making the -rcg Less!
Also tested with Psychic shockwave but found it to be far...uh...stronger than I needed, but it seemed to have the same behavior (less recharge debuff with more recharge enhancements, although the Enhancement screen said "Recharge:" rather than "Slow:" For Shockwave).

[ QUOTE ]
Although all TA powers are fired from the same bow, they have varying ranges. You can be close enough to fire off one power, but not another. They should all be consistent in range since the delivery method is the same.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I agree this would be convenient, your reasoning is faulty. Yes, they are all being delivered by the same bow, but you are not taking into account the differences in the projectiles. Even if you assume the arrows are all fletched identically, which would be highly unlikely, the arrows will be weighted differently due to the various gadget arrowheads. Different weight + same bow = different range.

[ QUOTE ]
AFter testing around a bit with a few powers that have -recharge, I'd say it's..um...weird.

I was testing with Siphon Speed, my friend was using SHout (10 second recharge, not slotted for recharge). With 3 Recharge reductions in Siphon speed, his shout took 12 seconds to recharge (with 1 siphon on him). WIthout any recharge reductions, it took about 14 seconds to recharge (again, with 1 siphon on him).

Need more testing, I'd say. But it seems the recharge reduction enhancements are making the -rcg Less!
Also tested with Psychic shockwave but found it to be far...uh...stronger than I needed, but it seemed to have the same behavior (less recharge debuff with more recharge enhancements, although the Enhancement screen said "Recharge:" rather than "Slow:" For Shockwave).

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you tried testing Siphon with various amounts of Enhance Slow Movement slotted in it?

This is all very surprising to me. As others have said, we've always been under the impression that Slow != -Recharge. Consider that powers like Chilling Embace list both -Speed and -Recharge as separate effects.

I understand that the devs want this set to veer more away from the controllery power effects, to make it more in line with other defender sets.

That being said, what do defenders do?
Buff
Debuff
Heal
Knockdown

If archery can't, due to the concept, buff or heal, it should really be focused on the latter.
Though Oil Slick, a fantastic later power, offers a bevy of knockdown, it's only available late in the game.

I suggest that, rather than give Entangling Arrow more of a -recharge or -spd component, make it a power which does knockdown. Similar to force field "Force Bolt", a power which does minor damage and knockback. Entangling Arrow when fired, would cause a mob to get knocked down, and then would be entangled.
This would make TA defenders much more useful in the early stages of the game, able to provide an effect which is useful, and LOOKS useful.

For flash arrow, a power which has little use, it's a more difficult situation. Other than raising the -acc effect of the power, something mentioned here a number of times, it's tough to give it an effect which will still maintain it's non-aggroing status.
However, why not make this power really stand out, having it do something which no other set is capable. Give it a -range component, say a 30% to 40% reduction in range for defenders (less for controllers and Masterminds). It makes sense, could be useful in combination with glue arrow or entangling arrow. It would be much more useful in teams.
Just an idea.

Just a general inquiry: is TA, as it is shaping up w/ all these changes, going to be decent for MMs come i7? I ask, because many of the powers *sound* good, but all the hero planner programs I've checked with show the debuffs as too small and the recharges too long...

[ QUOTE ]
Just a general inquiry: is TA, as it is shaping up w/ all these changes, going to be decent for MMs come i7? I ask, because many of the powers *sound* good, but all the hero planner programs I've checked with show the debuffs as too small and the recharges too long...

[/ QUOTE ]
I believe the general feeling is that TA is okay as a secondary for Controllers and Masterminds; as a Defender primary, however, it falls flat.

It's probably better for a Mastermind if for no other reason than while you're stuck in your long and frequent animations applying debuffs, your minions are still attacking for you.

I wouldn't advise taking the raw data in hero planners as gospel. A lot of it is based on incorrect or outdated information.

As far as the debuff values for Masterminds are concerned, the only one I've personally tested was Poison Gas Arrow. That comes in at a -damage of 15%, compared to the Defender version which is about 30%.

People, before we make any more suggestions on how TA needs improvement, let's get some more testing done on both the test and live servers. We need actual numbers and verifiable, repeatable conclusions to show what deficiencies still exist and how they can be shored up.

The developers know we still consider it to be underperforming. Now let's show them how and why. We aren't going to get anything accomplished with suggestions and theories.

The problem is, even the poorest AT & build CAN complete a mission, solo, set on heroic or villanous. If that is the baseline, (and I recall a statement by statesman that he expected a 25% attrition rate on teams in missions), then really no set is "underperforming". Don't get me wrong, with the variety of debuffs and soft control TA has, it can be good, but when people put it side by side with kinetics, dark, etc, it clearly IS underperforming...

[ QUOTE ]
but when people put it side by side with kinetics, dark, etc, it clearly IS underperforming...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why we need to do just what we've discussed, run one mission several times (once with no defender, once with TA, once with Dark, once with Rad, once with Kin, etc.) and post results. Mission completion times, general team conditions (health, endurance), teammates' commentary on the difficulty or ease of the missions, number of teammate defeats, anything we can call "information" that can be compared across several different runs.

I know TA needs buffs. You know TA needs buffs. Even the developers know TA needs buffs. But what each party thinks may need a buff, the other party may disagree. We also don't know exactly why some things have remained at the levels they've been set to, such as the accuracy debuff in Flash Arrow. Is there some potential exploit that we don't know about, thus keeping it low?

Hard data will give the developers something real to work with. Does TA need -regen? I certainly believe it does, having experienced end-game content (AV combat) as the sole defender on a team, but I don't expect them to make such a change without seeing why the set needs it, then take the time to test it themselves and find ways it might be exploitable or problematic.

They want data, not observations and feelings. They need actual, verifiable numbers, not suggestions. So we give them what they want, and I think once they've had time to look everything over and figure out how to best give us what the set needs, we'll see some results. Maybe not many more changes in this issue, but the next one, or a patch in between.

Now... not to boast, but I feel confident to say I am a good player. However, do the devs want me to roll a brand new TA defender, controller, or MM, and level them up to a "respectable" level in short order? Now... give me a 30+ TA whatever on test and I'll be glad to help. But I'll be damned if I'm gonna make the investment of time to level up a TA from scratch to do their testing. Now, please don't take what I'm saying as whining, just that I physically can't and won't invest the time to do all this testing now... if TA started out on a sour note, why would I have a TA character laying around to copy over and test with? You are absolutely right on all accounts of needing hard data. But, I also don't think that will do much if you're on a team. A good team can very easily pick up the slack if one team member is underperforming. I mean, w/ my kin/rad defender, I've often teamed w/ */kin controllers, especially in the higer levels, that contributed more than I could...

[ QUOTE ]
Now... not to boast, but I feel confident to say I am a good player. However, do the devs want me to roll a brand new TA defender, controller, or MM, and level them up to a "respectable" level in short order?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the better way to test the set is to start at the higher levels (run 45+ missions and fight some AVs), then exemp down to the lowest levels and run some missions.

Individual testing with TAs of varying levels would also be good, to get information on how it performs across the level spread. But starting at two points in the game when defenders can make the most difference will show the most pronounced effects.

[ QUOTE ]

|Buff/Debuff Value|
|Slow. . . . 95.7%|

Also doing it on Ice and Oil Slick, and if I had a Slow in Entangling, I bet it'd do it there, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

And as we all know, the only Slow you can enhance the debuff on is Runspeed and Flyspeed. Jump-Speed and -Recharge can only be affected by stacking the Debuffs... and usually only from multiple sources which for the most part, totally breaks all slow powers against anyone with Hasten and Superleap in PvP.... just like -DMG debuffs are worthless against most damage dealers.

So naturally... Castle... the Solution to weak slows in PvP is to cut their recharge-time in half again (or whatever it's original value was during Issue-5's Test-Period before it was Nerfed) and ensure that it stacks from the same source.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

|Buff/Debuff Value|
|Slow. . . . 95.7%|

Also doing it on Ice and Oil Slick, and if I had a Slow in Entangling, I bet it'd do it there, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

And as we all know, the only Slow you can enhance the debuff on is Runspeed and Flyspeed. Jump-Speed and -Recharge can only be affected by stacking the Debuffs... and usually only from multiple sources which for the most part, totally breaks all slow powers against anyone with Hasten and Superleap in PvP.... just like -DMG debuffs are worthless against most damage dealers.

So naturally... Castle... the Solution to weak slows in PvP is to cut their recharge-time in half again (or whatever it's original value was during Issue-5's Test-Period before it was Nerfed) and ensure that it stacks from the same source.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh...

The problem here is that recharge enhancements are being displayed incorrectly in the enhancement value tooltips. Please don't confuse _Castle_ any more than he already was. We just want the tooltip display fixed at the moment, really.