Official Thread for Trick Arrow changes
By
Adamh_77,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 17:05 in Developers' Corner
Bah, I'm just fricken ticked off now. I have a day off, I make sure I'm available and my connection goes screwy for approx 3 hours.
My connection is usually pretty reliable. Dunno wth happened.
I'm one mad lil archer now though......
Well...I tried to be there...but my TA isn't even villaious enough to enter BB. I will work on leveling him this week and perhaps we can try again over the weekend (Mother's Day permitting) or some time next week.
Kenja's Logitec G15 Masters Guide
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Didn't get into Siren's myself (only lvl 9), but I did manage to Solo a Mission full of lvl 10 Skullz at lvl 9. Something that would have been impossible before.
Kenja, Screwy, it turned out that testing in BB or Siren's would've been impossible. There's something about exemping down that causes SOs to drop below SO value, so the results in the PvP zones would've been incorrect. You didn't miss much.
We did, however, go into the arena and do some extensive testing of most of TA, in addition to a few other things. Everyone should express his/her gratitude to Soul_System and the players of Bluff and Sgt. Scorpion. Nothing would've been accomplished without the patience, dedication, determination, and clarity of mind of these three. I was little more than a minor participant in this, overall. These three did most of the work.
Also, let me repeat that these tests were conducted in the arena. Some of the powers tested will likely have stronger or different effects in PvE. Keep this in mind, please, for any future discussion. We do need to take more time to determine what differentiations exist between TA in PvP and TA in PvE, but the arena results are, all things considered, a very good beginning.
To begin, we tested and confirmed that there is a 10% (0.1) recharge debuff in Entangling Arrow. Testing the speed debuff was impossible, due to none of us having Combat Jumping or Stimulant, but we see no reason to believe it's not the 10% (0.1) that _Castle_ stated it to be.
The speed debuff in Ice Arrow was not tested, but we did determine that it has a 10% (0.1) recharge debuff, like Entangling Arrow. Considering this, and the text that states that Ice Arrow slows what it doesn't hold, we're confident that it also has a 10% (0.1) -speed.
Glue Arrow turned out to have many surprises for us. To begin, the -recharge is 25% (0.25). We also tested the actual slow effect, but don't have a percentage or numerical scale to gauge by, so I'll explain the results instead. With a single Glue patch down, unbuffed movement speed is drastically slowed, but Sprint+Swift easily overcomes much of the speed penalty. I was able to run circles around the other testers without feeling like I'd lost all that much speed, with Swift 2 slotted and Sprint only having 1 run enhancement (a Microfilament HO). We were also incapable of testing the -fly component, but I did verify that the -jump was working. Furthermore... Glue has an interrupt component! We were unable to fire off Ranged Shot while Glue was active, and Soul_System could only get Aid Self to activate by draining at least 1/3rd of his endurance in failed attempts. Bluff attempted and failed several Teleport Foes. Note, however, that none of these had Interrupt Reduction SOs slotted. Also, the interruptions only occured while in the original Glue AoE. Leaving the Glue, though still debuffed by it, I was able to fire off Ranged Shot without any issues. We also found that Glue's interrupt "stacks" with other powers or applications of Glue (did not test stacked Glues from single person, none of us had enough recharge slotted to have it up that quickly), making it even harder to fire off an interruptable power.
Disruption, we found, was also causing interruptions. The pulses were infrequent, to the point of allowing Ranged Shot, Aid Self, and Teleport Foe to work most of the time without interruption, but a few interruptions did occur in testing. Additionally, Disruption was verified as having a 20% resistance debuff.
It starts to get interesting here. We decided to test Oil Slick next, and discovered that IT was interrupting as well. This was without igniting the slick, and the interruptions were extremely frequent. Soul_System drained his entire endurance bar repeatedly in attempts to get Aid Self to activate, without a single success. Teleport Foe and Ranged Shot were impossible to activate as well. The slow in Oil Slick was difficult to test due to the knockdown (appears to be a bit less than Glue), but we could test whether it had a -recharge also applied. It doesn't, there is no recharge debuff in Oil Slick. One other thing that we did find, though, was that when Oil Slick was stacked with Glue, the speed debuff was extreme. Even with Swift and Sprint, I was practically immobilized.
Next item on the list was Acid Arrow. The tests for this came almost accidentally. Soul_System was using Acid Arrow as a gauge to determine recharge times, and decided to shoot me (something many have wished someone would do) a few times. That was when we found that Acid's -res is 30%, not 20%. When Soul_System hit me with Acid + Ranged, he did a total of 209 damage to me. With only Ranged Shot, the damage was 161 points. 161 * 1.3 = 209. Bluff confirmed this with the same method, Acid + an attack versus same attack with no Acid. Yes, we were just as surprised, and delighted.
The sleep in Poison Gas is definitely working as AoE now. Not at 100%, which meets our expectations, but this aspect does seem to function properly at the statistic given now. Testing the debuff was inconclusive, due to the way damage debuffs work in PvP. This power needs more investigation.
Now here's where it gets really interesting. EMP Arrow. To begin, we found that unslotted, for a level 35 TA/A, EMP appears to have a duration of 15 seconds in PvP. At level 50, the duration with 3 Endoplasms slotted was 29 seconds. Yes, a full 29 seconds of hold time, unsuppressed. With Power Build Up and 3 Endoplasms, the duration was 50 seconds. Vanguard + 3 Endoplasms = 45 seconds. And PBU+Vanguard+3 Endoplasms was 1 full minute. This reveals several interesting things about all of these powers. First, in PvP, EMP appears to have a base duration of 15 seconds, regardless of level. Second, Vanguard and PBU appear to buff base duration, not enhanced duration, but also, the duration increase from enhancements is added after PBU/Vanguard's buff. Third, based on this information, Vanguard appears to double the duration of the status effects it works on, but PBU doubles durations, then adds another 33%! Fourth, we found that there may be a hard cap or a scale of diminishing returns for status effects in PvP - using PBU and Vanguard before firing EMP only resulted in a 1 minute hold. We were expecting a longer hold duration from using both buffs, 1 minute and 20 seconds according to the behaviors of both buff powers, or longer if they acted as a stacking buff, but in every test, the holds ended at 1 minute. Finally, EMP doesn't seem to be suppressed in PvP. The holds never appeared to be prematurely broken, like suppression does for Ice Arrow, instead lasting a measurable and reproducable length each time. This may be related to the long recharge time, or critical holds, or the fact that I was only using EMP instead of attempting to stack holds with Ice.
We also tested PBU and Vanguard on -speed, -recharge, and -regen. None of these debuffs are affected by PBU or Vanguard. The -regen in EMP, we discovered, is a total halt to regen for 15 seconds, unbuffable. This is still a sore point, given that EMP is up so infrequently and -regen is so vital to EB/AV/Giant Monster combat. Please either remove the -regen in EMP and put it in Poison Gas or Acid, or just add -regen to Poison Gas or Acid. As long as this set lacks a usable and sustainable -regen, it's going to be problematic in high level play. Especially with the new AV buffs. Is TA to be defined as the only defender set that shouldn't be taken to AV combat? Seems rather undefendery.
Now, on to the oddities.
It appears that status effects of different types are cancelled in PvP. That is to say, if Player A uses a hold on Player B, then Player C uses a Disorient on Player B, the Disorient will be ignored for the duration of the hold, then end without any effect due to suppression. Player B will get a Disorient icon, but no Stunned message, even after the hold ends or is suppressed. So, apparently, status effect suppression is an across-the-board system that suppresses ALL status effects active or used after the first one is applied. By the time the suppression lifts, the duration of nearly all status effects would be over, resulting in absolutely no effect overall.
Glue, Poison Gas, Oil Slick, EMP, and I believe even Disruption are all getting "pet buff" graphics. Soul_System's Glue repeatedly showed a Hasten buff. My uses of Oil, Glue, EMP, and Poison Gas all showed Assault and Tactics graphics (i was running both in these instances), as well as PBU and Vanguard when I was using them (it was almost neat, shooting a rainbow EMP). I didn't get a close look at Disruption, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was also displaying "pet buff" graphics. Are these powers being buffed? If not, is it possible to fix them so they don't display these graphics, as it could be VERY confusing for new TA players?
Poison Gas was creating no debuff icons when it was used on us. It would probably be fair to request that a debuff notification be added, since it can affect PvP players without their knowledge if there isn't a debuff icon.
Ranged Shot is now showing 2 "reach behind and draw arrow" animations before firing. Blazing Arrow sounds like it's being fired twice when it leaves the bow.
Oil Slick still isn't at 100% ignition. I personally don't have a problem with it not being 100%, but that's more of a fear of an eventual nerf. But if it is intended to have a 100% ignition rate, it's still in need of some work.
Still waiting to get an explanation as to why Blazing Arrow could miss the target 3 times in a row, with 2 Nucleolus and Tactics... this is directly violating the streakbreaker's supposed behavior.
At level 35, with the same slotting (and i'm presuming the same level SOs), Soul_System stated that Ranged Shot was doing only doing 10 points of damage beyond Blazing Arrow's 151 points. This is barely a 6% difference between a snipe and a high damage attack. Is there a damage buff in Ranged Shot's future, or will Blazing Arrow be reduced?
That's it for now. If I missed anything, Soul, Bluff, and/or Sgt. Scorpion can add to this or correct any mistakes I made.
*yawns and stumbles back into the Lumiverse for a nap*
Huzzah! Good show Luminara and friends!
Interesting that Acid Arrow is 30%, I wonder when it got buffed? Maybe I should do another test on live and see if it got buffed in I7?
In anycase, thanks alot for the information. With the advent of accolades being available all the time, I will of course be working towards the vangaurd accolade with my TA defender. EMP Arrow is looking absolutely delicious as a hold power when I need a hold power. Too bad about the -regen.
We can only hope that we get a decent -regen power in TA at some point.
PvE testing shows Acid Arrow still at 20%. Maybe it's some messed up PvP thing?
Nice summation, Lum (my TA/A defender is Sgt. Scorpion, btw.) I think you pretty much covered everything relative to our testing, so I'm just going to touch on a point or two and then give my opinion as to the direction the set needs to go from here. Forgive me if my comments mirror things that have already been stated in this thread, but please remember that we have a better chance of seeing some changes if we continue to give constructive criticism, even if it does at times get repetitive.
First, I'll briefly touch on our encounter last night with Paladin in KR. Three of us (myself, Dancing, and Bluff I believe) decide to try and take him down. But we failed miserably and ended up making a quick trip to the hospital. Now, IIRC, Giant Monsters were significantly boosted with the I7 patch, so it might be said that a team of just 3 were doomed to fail from the start. But we barely put a dent in him; in contrast, if say, a team of Rads or Darks would have decided to take him on, they would have been able to put up a much better fight due to the higher quality of debuffs at their disposal, even though the end result may very well have been the same.
In other words, the recent changes to TA are much welcomed and appreciated, and go a long way towards enhancing the quality of the set. It makes a TA defender's contribution on a team more meaningful, which is an area where it was lacking. But it still needs more. And while there's a number of issues that are still outstanding (entangling's piddly -recharge, the almost non-existant aftereffects associated with ice, for example), I honestly believe that if 2 major steps were taken with it, it would go from being a good set to a very strong one.
Flash Arrow: the auto-hit and pseudo-stealth is nice, but it really needs it's accuracy debuff component strengthened, particularly in light of the debuff schedule change from A to B. Even the description of the power lends itself to this conclusion: "the targets are so blinded that they can hardly see a thing." Well, if that's true, how can they see enough to be able to hit you so readily and often, as if they weren't even affected?
Poison Gas Arrow: the -damage effect is noticeable, and the sleep is a welcome addition, but as others before me have already noted, it really does need a -regeneration component. It's true that EMP already has one, but it's on a long timer, and in comparison, Rad has Lingering Radiation, which it can fire off more consistently and contains -regen, and EM Pulse, which IIRC has the same recharge duration as EMP Arrow and does the same thing.
If those 2 aspects alone were fixed, what would we have? A set that would debuff accuracy, defense, damage resistance, recharge, health regeneration, and mob speed, along with an immobilize (despite the low -recharge on entangling, it becomes that much more important to a TA build because of the revised recharge on glue), 2 holds, and a power that gives you a knockdown effect as a bonus. And more importantly, since this is a debuff only set, with no heal and no direct team buffs to speak of, it would do it at a level very comparable to Dark and Rad, which we all know are considered the kings of debuffing sets, and many of us have regularly pointed out that this is the ballpark where TA needs to be. The proposed change to Flash alone would greatly help low level TA defenders, since they would have an additional tool available to them that would mitigate a good chunk of incoming damage, both for themselves and for their teammates.
So at this point, sure there's still a few issues with TA that need to be worked out. They're all legitimate ones, and in no way do I mean to say that they don't have any significance. It's hoped that they're all addressed in time. But the factors I mentioned above are major ones, and are what I believe the only 2 that are left that prevent it from taking a major step forward.
I might add that Luminara is being a bit modest and that it was a team effort for all of us.
I agree and support what has been said but would like to emphasize a few things.
Flash Arrow. Yeah this powers DOES need the ACC debuff boosted. Both to help low lvl Trick Arrow and to patch up a hole in the TA set.
-regen. We need this badly for AV. In fact it's prolly at the top of the list of fixes TA still needs.
Control suppression. I understand suppressing the same abilities, but why would being immune to hold make one immune to sleep or disorient?
Something as simple as a melee disorient side effect could negate a controllers contribution, much less a defenders with holds.
Ranged shot vs Blazing Arrow. Ranged is indeed doing mebe 10 points more dmg, considering it's limitations it needs to be a decent amount better than blazing arrow.
I don't know if that's because blazing is that good, or if ranged is under par though.
Entangling Arrow, Would still like to see this increase to web grenade debuff status.
Ice Arrow. Remove the -spd, -recharge. Fix the animation.
Stunning Arrow. Reduce the animation.
The set IS rather shaping up and I appreaciate what has been done already.
HOWEVER it still needs a few crucial fixes.
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Control suppression. I understand suppressing the same abilities, but why would being immune to hold make one immune to sleep or disorient?
Something as simple as a melee disorient side effect could negate a controllers contribution, much less a defenders with holds.
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From CuppaJo, 4/14/05
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Set all Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immobilize and Fear to suppress each other in PvP. That is, if you affected by any of those control effects in PvP, you cannot be affected by any of those control effects for 15 seconds.
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Mezzes have always been troublesome to balance for PvP. Nobody likes being chain-held, while mezzers don't like their main specialty to be rendered irrelevant. This goes back much farther than CoH/CoV. I don't know if suppression is the best way of dealing with this, especially in a game where there are many counters to being mezzed, but it's what they came up with.
Back to TA though, since PvP doesn't interest me. 
I wish I could have been there for the testing, but it was a bit later than this old fogey stays up on weekdays. If the next test is in my timeframe, I'd love to show up.
One of the things I'd absolutely love to do is run a mission with only one defender, a TA/; then run the same mission with the same people, but have the TA/ bring one of his/her other debuffing defenders (Storm/, Dark/, or Rad/) and run the mission again for comparison. Yeah, I know it's outside of the scope of this thread, but I'd like to do it anyway.
Thanks to those of you who did test and post. Keep the observations coming, we may yet see a second developer appearance and feedback!
Because of PvP, don't expect to see a -Regen in a quick-recharging (for TA anyway, 45 seconds base), auto-hit power like Poison Gas Arrow. The possibility of keeping someone from regaining HP (outside of Heals) for an infinite amount of time sounds rather nasty.
Now... in a quick-recharging, tohit-checking, small radius power like Acid Arrow where it's only possible to cause -Regen if the power hits, and most likely only ever on a single person (besides MMs and Empaths who turn Heal Aura on autofire and then hit Follow, who really stands within 8 feet of allies at all times? ...Man, those Empaths would be the perfect targets...)? That's much more likely. I don't see it being more powerful than that similar Traps move, since you have to stop attacking to use Acid Arrow, while Traps version is like having an ally that fires 10 (I think) Acid Arrows for you.
P.S. Please ignore this post if:
A) There's already an auto-hit -Regen.
AND if:
B) Traps' Acid Arrow-wannabe power isn't actually as similar as it sounds.
>_>
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One of the things I'd absolutely love to do is run a mission with only one defender, a TA/; then run the same mission with the same people, but have the TA/ bring one of his/her other debuffing defenders (Storm/, Dark/, or Rad/) and run the mission again for comparison. Yeah, I know it's outside of the scope of this thread, but I'd like to do it anyway.
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This is exactly what I've been trying to organize with Carl and Sons, and any of the coalitioned members, but everyone's busy playing with their IoPs and raiding each other and blah blah blah. I've got a 42 Dark/Dark/Psi that would be perfect for this test (NOTHING is slotted for tohit debuff, it's all base, so she'd be ideal for comparing basic capabilities). I can also contribute a 50 Inv/SS tank who's reliant on defender support (no Unstoppable) if we need that instead, let someone else do the defender comparison.
Let's put something together! This weekend, in fact!
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Still waiting to get an explanation as to why Blazing Arrow could miss the target 3 times in a row, with 2 Nucleolus and Tactics... this is directly violating the streakbreaker's supposed behavior.
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My understanding of StreakBreaker is that it will force a miss after 10 hits in a row. You will however be capable of missing all on your own 5% of the time still.
Over time it will all even out but I myself find that when I start to miss, I miss in groupings of 3 or more. Just the other day I missed a +2 minion 6 times in a row with 2 Acc SO's, Buildup, and a few insights all going.
Centinull
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Still waiting to get an explanation as to why Blazing Arrow could miss the target 3 times in a row, with 2 Nucleolus and Tactics... this is directly violating the streakbreaker's supposed behavior.
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My understanding of StreakBreaker is that it will force a miss after 10 hits in a row.
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Backwards. The streakbreaker never forces misses, only hits. It's dependant on the final accuracy, and above 90%, only the streakbreaker forces a hit after a single miss. The only caveat is that it's reset if you switch to an attack with a different accuracy, so if you switch attacks repeatedly and they each have even a 0.01 variation in accuracy, or a buff wears off, etc., the streakbreaker counts each attack seperately and independantly, which could allow for multiple misses in a row.
So missing the Oil Slick target, when not attacking anything else or using an AoE/cone, and not switching to a different attack, and with the inherant base 1.16 accuracy of Blazing Arrow, the buff from Tactics, and 2 Nucleolus in the attack, should literally never happen. There are only 3 possible reasons this could happen - broken streakbreaker (testing doesn't indicate this), broken Blazing Arrow (testing doesn't indicate this), or broken Oil Slick (queue the little dinging noise).
I can offer a 33 Warshade, a 50 /regen scrapper, or a 27 Stormer, if need be, although I'll only be available in the afternoons on Sunday (god, I hate my job). Most of my test server slots are occupied by villains or lowbie characters for powers testing. >.<
Oh, and also, as to the StreakBreaker, WeirdBeard says :
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Final to-hit : misses allowed
>.9 : 1
.8-.9 : 2
.6-.8 : 3
.4-.6 : 4
.3-.4 : 6
.2-.3 : 8
0 -.2 : 100
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The problem is, the streakbreaker doesn't reset on targets - if you miss anything first and don't break the streak with a hit, (for example, if you miss while trying to brawl a Devouring Earth Swarm), the StreakBreaker will 'lock' onto that lowest value and use it for the current miss series.
That doesn't explain how something at 95% nettohit (it can be nothing else, given that _Castle_ gave it a -1000% defense debuff, is being missed three times in a row by several different players within the same week. The chance of any one player having that happen are one in eight thousand.
I actually have a 31 TA/Archery and a 30 Rad/Rad, both of which could be copied over onto Test quite handily.
Unfortunately, I also tend to not be extremely reliable for testing purposes, since I'm often debilitated by migraines. However, my global handle (on live and Test) is the same as my forum name and I'd be glad to try and help out when I can.
Have you or someone you know been the victim of Nerd Rage?
Find answers, get help.
Hmm as far as alts? MY 35 TA/A is my highest, and will prolly be my first 50. I've been playing since maybe Issue 4 I think.
Altaholism at it's finest.
I do however have a lvl 32 illusion/kin controller. Other alts are neligable except my lvl 31 bots/traps mastermind.
Here's a follow-up on something I noticed while we were testing (Bluff here):
I noted that recharge enhancement values weren't being displayed properly in Glue and Ice Arrow. Instead, the recharge percentages were being displayed as Slow enhancement values. I logged in with my ill/storm to see if this was specific to those powers or a general problem. It's general--Freezing Rain has the same issue. I currently have Freezing Rain slotted 3 recharge/1 slow, and it showed a separate Slow percentage for each recharge enhancement, plus one for the slow enhancer. It's very odd, but it's not just a TA problem. I bugged it from my stormie, with a list of powers I'd seen the problem on.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
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PvE testing shows Acid Arrow still at 20%. Maybe it's some messed up PvP thing?
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Acid Arrow has a larger debuff in PvP than in PvE, at least for Defenders. Controllers and Mastermind PVE & PVP values match.
Slow enhancements can effect many different things, and each of them is displayed, even if the final values are the same. I kicked that to engineering earlier to day to see if there is an easy way of condensing things.
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PvE testing shows Acid Arrow still at 20%. Maybe it's some messed up PvP thing?
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Acid Arrow has a larger debuff in PvP than in PvE, at least for Defenders. Controllers and Mastermind PVE & PVP values match.
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O_O
>.>
<.<
*tip-toes into Siren's Call*
Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere, stalkerstalkerstalker...
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Slow enhancements can effect many different things, and each of them is displayed, even if the final values are the same. I kicked that to engineering earlier to day to see if there is an easy way of condensing things.
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It's not a power/enhancement mechanic issue, _Castle_. It's the same problem that's causing accuracy enhancement values to not appear in the tooltips. Buggy tooltip display. No accuracy values, recharge showing up as slow, etc.
I'd just like to post a few comments in regards to Oil Slick. Before respeccing into it on test, I had no prior experience with this power, so I'm not familiar firsthand with the frustration others have experienced in regards to lighting it.
Out of 20 attempts, it lit a total of 16 times, which amounts to (if my math is correct) a 80% light percentage. I missed the slick twice, but on both occasions I was able to follow up and light it with my very next shot.
Now, would it be better if it lit 100% of the time? Ideally, yes. But let's keep something in mind: it also slows and does knockdown, providing the user with at least a fair bit of control. Having a perfect percentage in regards to lighting it on top of all this would more likely than not invite a visit from someone wielding a nerfbat, as Soul astutely pointed out in our conversation the other night. It's probably best left as is, though notably, TA/darks and TA/psys have no way to light it, and that is a problem that should be addressed. In any case, I should be on the TR at some point over the weekend, during which time I'll do some more testing. I'm also open to some type of group effort to do this as well. Though he isn't listed in my sig, my archer's name is Sgt. Scorpion, currently level 27.
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Slow enhancements can effect many different things, and each of them is displayed, even if the final values are the same. I kicked that to engineering earlier to day to see if there is an easy way of condensing things.
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It's not a power/enhancement mechanic issue, _Castle_. It's the same problem that's causing accuracy enhancement values to not appear in the tooltips. Buggy tooltip display. No accuracy values, recharge showing up as slow, etc.
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Right. When I checked, Glue and Ice Arrow had no Slow DOs slotted. The Recharge Reduction DO values were being displayed with the "Slow" label. Recharge Reduction enhancement values appear to display correctly on powers that do not have a Slow component.
The Way of the Corruptor (Arc ID 49834): Hey villains! Do something for yourself for a change--like twisting the elements to your will. All that's standing in your way are a few secret societies...and Champions of the four elements.
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Slow enhancements can effect many different things, and each of them is displayed, even if the final values are the same. I kicked that to engineering earlier to day to see if there is an easy way of condensing things.
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It's not a power/enhancement mechanic issue, _Castle_. It's the same problem that's causing accuracy enhancement values to not appear in the tooltips. Buggy tooltip display. No accuracy values, recharge showing up as slow, etc.
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Right. When I checked, Glue and Ice Arrow had no Slow DOs slotted. The Recharge Reduction DO values were being displayed with the "Slow" label. Recharge Reduction enhancement values appear to display correctly on powers that do not have a Slow component.
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When I checked the enhancement values for both powers on my screen, I noticed the same thing.
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Still waiting for more people. Trickshooter is with me, Kenja and ScrewySquirrel are on.
We're starting in Steel to compare notes and figure out how to do a reasonable test with the heroes (due to level variations and inability of some to access some zones), then moving into Siren's to meet up with the villainous TAs.
Get in it.
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Bah, game seems to have crashed entering Warburg, now I gotta "Verify Image." :B I think that's it for me for the evening, Luminara.