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Note: Blaster, Corruptor and Mastermind Trip Mines have drastically different percentages. I think this is a Bug -- I think the Corruptor/MM version was skipped when making these changes, or Trip Mine for Villains was increased, and Blasters were skipped. Either way, I'll be making changes to the chances for that in a future update.
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Just please please please be careful about reducing the MM version... We're a pretty low damage class, with next to nothing in the way of hard control, so we need toggle drops in PvP a lot more than the blasters.
What about the scrapper/tanker detoggling attacks? Spines does it a lot, Energy Melee does it a ton. Broadsword doesn't do it at all anymore. We need a complete list.
I need help because I'm not numerically inclined...
For those where you gave 2 percentages (e.g. Force Bolt for Defenders) - what does the 1st vs. the 2nd # mean?
Now I can actually PvP instead of constantly turning toggles back on 
Scrapper Slotting Basics
Brute Slotting Basics
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What about the scrapper/tanker detoggling attacks? Spines does it a lot, Energy Melee does it a ton. Broadsword doesn't do it at all anymore. We need a complete list.
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Uh, I'm 99% sure Scrappers and Tanks have no detoggle effects. Energy Melee for Tanks detoggles because it has stuns attached to most powers, and being stunned drops your toggles. Spines doesnt have any mez effects that woudl result in a toggle drop.
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You guys took a volcano, and turned it into an ant hill.
Numbers before for Electrical Manipulation (IIRC): Havoc Punch - 100% for 1 toggle, 50% for 2 toggles, 25% for 3 toggles. (That just doesn't seem right to me... the numbers were similar to that, at least.)
Numbers now: Blaster: Electrical Manipulation: Havok Punch: 22% for 1 Toggle
I mean... it was most assuredly a problem before, but with #'s like those, it will pretty much be a non-factor.
The big problem is the only 5% chance on Brawl - Tanker Vs Tanker and Regen Vs Regen fights will never end now.
Many of those powers were taken solely for their toggle drop aspects. I can guarantee you no one in the game that PvPs will have Frozen Fists now that it only has a 5% chance to drop toggles.
I saw Toggle-Dropping as a necessary evil before, but it was pushed too far. Many times the only way to stop a Stalker from hopping away after his free kill was to toggle-drop him and hold him. Otherwise, he's hopping away, waiting for Hide to pop back, and swooping back down. It was the only way I've been able to defeat a Regen Scrapper. The only chance I have against an Ice Tank.
If you're okay with a foodchain of Scrappers > Tankers > Controllers > Blasters > Defenders in PvP, then good job. If that is not what you were going for, those numbers need to be increased a bit.
My ideal solution would have been Charged Brawl: 75% to drop one toggle, Havoc Punch: 50% to drop one toggle. The weaker punch has the higher % to encourage more people to choose it, if they're only taking the punches for the toggle dropping chances to begin with.
Also - Thunder Clap is the most unwieldy power to use in both PvE and PvP. When I read "8% to drop one toggle, I respecced it out in my mind.
Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.
Castle this goes a long way toward "Fixing" Tanks in PVP. I might try it again. Quick question though? Can Tanks drop toggles? No Tanks are listed on your post. Tanks do low damage *cough* Ice secondary *cough* too. What are there chances of dropping someones toggles?
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Total Focus does not have a DropToggles attribute. It does have a Disorient, and that can drop toggles.
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Uh...that doesn't explain this, from your list:
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Dominator: Total Focus: 64% for 1 Toggle
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So, is that inaccurate, or is it the Blaster/Tanker versions that have no DropToggle attribute?
Does being disoriented not drop ALL active toggles? I'm asking because I don't know.
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What about the scrapper/tanker detoggling attacks? Spines does it a lot, Energy Melee does it a ton. Broadsword doesn't do it at all anymore. We need a complete list.
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As he said about Total Focus, any attack that disorients can drop toggles. No scrapper/tanker attack ever had a percentage chance to drop toggles.
Oh yeah, almost forgot...
/e Happy Dance
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What about the scrapper/tanker detoggling attacks? Spines does it a lot, Energy Melee does it a ton. Broadsword doesn't do it at all anymore. We need a complete list.
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No Scrapper/Tanker attacks detoggle outside of Brawl. If they do, then it's either due to an inherent mez effect in the attack, or a bug.
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I need help because I'm not numerically inclined...
For those where you gave 2 percentages (e.g. Force Bolt for Defenders) - what does the 1st vs. the 2nd # mean?
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I think it means, for example, 8% chance to drop one toggle, 2% chance to drop a second, and 0.whatever chance for both to happen.
Defender Force Field: Repulsion Bomb: 27% and 5% for 1 Toggle; 1.35% chance of 2 Toggles
Controller Force Field: Repulsion Bomb: 19% for 1 Toggle
gutted from 100%
increase the stun back up on these powers or they are totally useless.
Thanks for posting the number Castle! Though unfortunately this put Repulsion bomb back into the semi/mostly-useless category.
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Total Focus does not have a DropToggles attribute. It does have a Disorient, and that can drop toggles.
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Uh...that doesn't explain this, from your list:
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Dominator: Total Focus: 64% for 1 Toggle
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So, is that inaccurate, or is it the Blaster/Tanker versions that have no DropToggle attribute?
Does being disoriented not drop ALL active toggles? I'm asking because I don't know.
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Argh! Blasters, Tankers, Brutes and Stalkers Total focus does not have a Toggle Drop associated with it (aside from the Disorient) -- Dominators do. I didn't re-read the entire list and only checked the Blaster version for the quoted post. Sorry.
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I need help because I'm not numerically inclined...
For those where you gave 2 percentages (e.g. Force Bolt for Defenders) - what does the 1st vs. the 2nd # mean?
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I think it means, for example, 8% chance to drop one toggle, 2% chance to drop a second, and 0.whatever chance for both to happen.
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That's what I thought but then how do you explain this?
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Defender Storm Summoning: Thunder Clap: 12% and 2% for 1 Toggle; 0.4% chance of 2 Toggles
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Is that saying there's a 12% chance to drop the first and a 2% chance of dropping two in one hit? with the chance of dropping a second toggle after dropping a first equal to .4%. I can't say I'm always the best with math but that seems kind of confusing.
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Inherent: Brawl: 5% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Devices: Trip Mine: 5% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Devices: Time Bomb: 19% for 1 Toggle
Corruptor: Traps: Trip Mine: 75% and 37% for 1 Toggle; 27.75% chance for 2 Toggles
Mastermind: Traps: Trip Mine: 75% and 37% for 1 Toggle; 27.75% chance for 2 Toggles
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I wonder what the rationale behind the massive disparity between the blaster Trip Mine and the villain Trip Mines is. Blaster trip mines went from a chance of 2 toggle drops to a 5% chance of a single toggle drop, equivalent to brawl. Surely they don't expect a */Dev to try to use Time Bomb in PvP, I have about as much chance of someone being in the area after the 12 second interruptable animation and 15 second detonation delay as I do of defeating an Invuln tank using nothing but brawl. Beanbag and taser have virtually no chance of punching through brute/stalker/tank/scrapper status protection, and even if they do, suppression and break frees put a quick end to that tactic. I guess the only thing my AR/Dev can do now is try to TP Foe into Trip mines, assuming the target isn't TP resistant.
My only question is why do the devs hate Assault Rifle and Devices so much? With no burst damage, no useful toggle dropping, a secondary effect that is resisted by the majority of melee types (KB), and the long standing unaddressed bug of mines not reliably detonating, there is really no point to go into a PvP zone with an AR/Dev unless you like to visit the hospital. Even Archery got some love in I7, and all AR/Dev got was more nerfs.
_Castle_ in his post addressed your question, in case you missed it:
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Note: Blaster, Corruptor and Mastermind Trip Mines have drastically different percentages. I think this is a Bug -- I think the Corruptor/MM version was skipped when making these changes, or Trip Mine for Villains was increased, and Blasters were skipped. Either way, I'll be making changes to the chances for that in a future update.
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Defender Force Field: Repulsion Bomb: 27% and 5% for 1 Toggle; 1.35% chance of 2 Toggles
Controller Force Field: Repulsion Bomb: 19% for 1 Toggle
gutted from 100%
increase the stun back up on these powers or they are totally useless.
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Yea, this pretty makes the power pointless now. I guess a Defender shouldn't waste his time attacking.
Once again _Castle_, your a gentleman and scholar. Thanks for taking the time posting those numbers for us. As for the numbers themself, I know Im quite satisfied with them. I think it makes for a more health PVP evironment.
And to the ppl displeased with Doms. Think of it like this. How long does it take you to recharge you best toggle droppping power? I know for my Dom, TF recharges pretty fast considering. And Doms are made the "kings" of toggle dropping after I7. I think that in itself is pretty flattering.
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Once again _Castle_, your a gentleman and scholar. Thanks for taking the time posting those numbers for us. As for the numbers themself, I know Im quite satisfied with them. I think it makes for a more health PVP evironment.
And to the ppl displeased with Doms. Think of it like this. How long does it take you to recharge you best toggle droppping power? I know for my Dom, TF recharges pretty fast considering. And Doms are made the "kings" of toggle dropping after I7. I think that in itself is pretty flattering.
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Are you kidding me? TF takes like three years to animate, and unless you have recharge reduction or hasten it takes 20 seconds to recharge. TF is the worst one, lol. Blaze and Psy Shockwave are probably the best ones now - short animations, shorter recharges, and PSW is PBAoE.
Hi _Castle_,
I always thought that FF had such prodigious toggle dropping abilities in its KB powers because KB is awfully close to being completely resisted in PvP -- between acrobatics, hover, supression, buffs, and def sets, I've rarely sent someone flying compared to how often I've used my bubbler's KB powers.
If FF's KB powers do virtually no damage, don't regularly KB, and don't toggle reliably, why bother using ... or even taking ... them? Even though toggle dropping was a godawful, inelegant kludge, it gave my bubbler something useful to do beyond being a buff [censored]. Now ... FF's best toggle dropper, repulsion bomb, has a mind-numbing 3+ second animation time, a 1/4 chance to drop a single toggle, and a goofy 30 second recharge. It has something like a 1/4 (generously 1/3) chance to stun someone with no mez protection. It was, at best, a marginal power in PvE that could be put to good use in PvP ... and now, we're back to it being virtually pointless in both PvE and PvP.
That means my bubbler is, well, down to buffing and using detention field. And I *hate* detention field; it's annoying in a very, very bad way that feels cheap, bordering on griefing. My bubbler's blasts? They're really not much more than an annoyance; I've only ever dropped a couple toons with my bubbler in PvP (and been defeated *lots*, yes, I only PvP on teams), and both were fire tankers I herded with force bubble. And both took multiple minutes to drop while I worked *very* hard to keep them detoggled.
My ability to detoggle mobs was my *primary* source of defense in PvP. Once I got in a few toggle drops, melee toons generally fled -- even if, deep down, they knew I otherwise wouldn't be able to defeat them.
Is that your vision for FF? Buffers and detainers? Or am I missing something?
PvP was, for months, the most fun I had with my bubbler ... but now?
*shrugs*
Maybe I'll bring out the ol tanker now and put away the blappers for a bit.
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Defender Storm Summoning: Thunder Clap: 12% and 2% for 1 Toggle; 0.4% chance of 2 Toggles
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Is that saying there's a 12% chance to drop the first and a 2% chance of dropping two in one hit? with the chance of dropping a second toggle after dropping a first equal to .4%. I can't say I'm always the best with math but that seems kind of confusing.
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12% to drop one toggle -- if _that_ toggle drops, there's a separate 2% chance to drop another. 2% of 12% is 0.4%, so 0.4% final chance to drop two toggles.
Proprietary brain. Place in shred bin only.
Ok, fine, melee's get to keep their toggles on now most of the time. When you tried to level the playing field, you cut the legs a little to short on one side.
What about melee attacks being heavily loaded with status effects(not counting powers such as Stun)? Everytime a melee get's into a fist fight with me, my blaster get's hit with one or two status effects at a time. Why are melee's allowed to turn off all of my toggles then?
What about toggle heavy builds? If I just manage to get that small chance to drop one toggle, it could be Sprint or a travel power with instant recharge, or a single defense toggle which recharges rather fast. How about Sprint not being able to be affected by toggle droppers and Armors taking longer to recharge (15ish seconds) so that melee's would be vulnerable to that one damage type while the toggle is down.
They can also joust my controller through Hurricane and then speed off. How about debuffs apply the instant they enter the Hurricane or longer suppression of travel powers?
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Poor Bone Smasher ; ; I'm going to miss dropping toggles with ye.
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They should have never touched Toggle Drops on Dominators.
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