[ QUOTE ]
My stalker doesn't need toggle drops, I doubt any stalker needs toggle drops. Personally, I would remove the toggle drop from stalkers entirely.
[/ QUOTE ]
EM Stalkers might not, but my Claws Stalker does.
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
[ QUOTE ]
I bet when they buff Mental Blast to actually-worth-taking levels it'll become even better.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, it was Statesman who said he'd be looking into buffing Mental Blast so it'll happen right around the time skills and power customization get put into the game.
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
<<Blaster have damages, lots of them, partly unresistable. I fail to see why would they even need toggle dropping capabilities at all. >>
I do not think you have PvPed as a blaster with this statement because our damage output is < defenses. Why do you think so many of us Blapp? Because our melee skills hit harder and have a faster recharge than our ranged skills. Because it is nearly impossible to engage in a sustained ranged battle in PvP. Because we are squishy and everyone salivates at the thought of going after us. Because most arena maps are for melee fights. Because our ranged attacks require us to stand still (why is ice popular? quick animation times maybe?) Because some blaster sets are not given enough ranged powers to sustain a ranged attack combo. We are being forced by the system, by ED, by game design to fight in melee, yet our ability to have a fighting chance to survive at melee has just been critically reduced.
For me to have any chance in a lvl 50 pvp fight, i need aim+bu+snipe to activate, and i need to follow it up with two or three attacks. How many times in a lvl 50 fight do you think i get left alone long enough to get aim+bu+snipe off?
Sure in PvP zones the equation changes somewhat, but with toggle drops i stood a chance of standing and fighting any AT with a defensive set.
Now i stand none because blasters do not have the damage output to compensate for the advantages defensive sets give. Was 100% toggle drop to high? Yes. But to give me a 1 in 20 chance or 1 in 5 chance to drop a 1 toggle is to low.
2 blaster offensive sets < 1 defensive set
Nerf Blaster Controllers!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Kali, very mature. Really. I guess I shouldn't have expected more.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's convenient for you that your thread in Archetypes and Powers was deleted yesterday.
I didn't flame you. I didn't attack you. I'm tired of going over exactly the same arguments over and over again. I'm tired of having my integrity attacked because I wanted toggle drops to be reduced.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, you didnt.
I still read many of the toggle-drop oriented threads and while I pretty much stopped posting in a lot of them for the very reason your mentioning - I do read them.
And you neither attacked or antagonized him.
Being antagonized, belittled and disrespected has pretty much become standard fair for supporting a toggle-drop change in the forums.
Pretty much everything *but* the toggle-drop mechanic in itself being overpowered for post I5/ED game-play is to blame for the change.
Ive pretty much been accused of everything from being apart of some invisible "Melee Community" consipracy to nerf the blaster AT into uselessness to being driven by a deep-seated rage born from pre-adolescent fears and insecurities (apparently common to the "Melee Mentality") to nerf blasters because one beat me in pvp.
Just laughable psycho-babble.
22% to drop toggles is still incredible considering how often scrappers crit in pvp.
It needed to be changed for the post I5/ED game.
The risk vs. reward arguement never held water because it was a non-risk to enter pvp with a melee AT due to being able to trivialize all thier defenses with 1-3 attacks.
It'll be nice to have it be a risk to melee a melee AT again - as it should be.
22% toggle-drop chance
unresistable ranged and melee damage
An inherent that makes them more dangerous in prolonged fights reguardless of range since thier secondaries do great damage.
Sounds like a solid AT to me.
Sounds like more than what most AT's get.
Just no more "I win" button.
Personally I think the /dev cuts to toggle drops are way too low, and the dominator's should get some sort of compensation since this change essentially kicked them when they were already down.
Domination should build even faster than the current change because it has to be built and doms are probably the least survivable AT in a game where the pvp battles are way too fast and nowhere near comic-book encounters in terms of survivability.
Well, let me say this much on the whole "blapping is the only way".
I took my Ice/Devices Blaster into SC one evening. I stayed there about 4 hours. I'd never PvP'd with that character before.
I sure as hell didn't blap. I didn't use Trip Mines. I didn't use my secondary at all. I don't have TP foe.
I did have one teammate - a Spines/Regen Scrapper. I did hang out near other heroes, and would retreat to things like Dispersion Bubble or Hurricane when we got too spread out or there was too much stuff after me.
I ended they night with a repuation of 77. I easily produced 1/2 of that on my own. I killed people with the Ice Blast primary and pretty much nothing else. The only secondary power used was Web Grenade.
Do I think that's a characteristic example that means everything is fine? No. Ice is a strong primary. The villains that night could have been really gimp.
But it certainly suggests to me that raw damage goes a long, long way when it has some teammates to back it up.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
This brings up a question...
Assualt Rifle Devices...
NOT using the mine+tp Foe method... is the combonation at the bottom of the barrel as it concerns blaster Kill to death ratio?
<<22% toggle-drop chance>>
22% for 1 attack, that needs to recharge. In a level 50 pvp fight you will be dead before you can get this off more than twice.
<<unresistable ranged and melee damage>>
Only a % is unresistable. Not the entire damage.
<<An inherent that makes them more dangerous in prolonged fights reguardless of range since thier secondaries do great damage.>>
Yes, but you overlook in lvl 50 fights a blaster does not live long enough at 20% or less health to take advantage of defiance. If you are lucky you will get 1 attack off with defiance being anywhere near the point of having an effect.
<<Sounds like a solid AT to me.>>
You don't PvP as a blaster much do you? The majority of blaster ATs get destroyed in PvP. Only a small number of highly specialized AT with very specific APPs do well....do well against your generic run of the mill melee class. The majority of blasters get destroyed, across the board in PvP. It is no myth or secret that PvP oriented blasters must construct their build from the ground up to succeed. Do not confuse those people who do that, and do that well, with the general, overall blaster experience. There's a reason you dont see much blaster variety in PvP.
<<Sounds like more than what most AT's get.>>
No offense but this is just a self serving comment. I cant convince you your opinion is wrong, because its an opinion.
<<Just no more "I win" button. >>
Really? So i take it melee class ranged attacks, stalker assassin strike, stalker\scrapper crits, self heal\Hp buff, controller containment, any hold/stun/root abilities should be taken out as well? Since these are basically I win buttons against blasters.
Nerf Blaster Controllers!!!!
Bless you Developers. This is perhaps the best change included in i7. PvP is a whole lot more fun with this, and toggle dropping is now as it should be... a challenge.
I salute you on this one! 
Now.... if we could discuss the insane prestige costs issue... 
Shard Warrior - 50 MA/Regen/BM Scrapper
Founding Member and Leader : Shadow-Force
Co-Leader: Council of Heroes
"Whatever evils come this way... we will be there to stop them."
<<NOT using the mine+tp Foe method... is the combonation at the bottom of the barrel as it concerns blaster Kill to death ratio? >>
Id say yes, but more generally the problem with this scenario is that some blaster sets are more support than offense (dev, ice). Anytime you combine a damage type that is across the board resisted by defensive sets with a secondary more about support you are going to get a low kill ratio.
A more fair comparison would be to compare kill\death ratio with average damage output (DPS). That would probably be a more fair display, since those with a higher DPS would be held to a higher standard of kill\death.
Nerf Blaster Controllers!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
Kali, very mature. Really. I guess I shouldn't have expected more.
Vidszhite, I'd suggest against using TF to drop toggles. A three plus second animation in melee range against melee players isn't going to do wonders. You'll be Stunned before you're even half-way through the slam dunk.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why do you think I'm appalled it only has a 46% chance to drop ONE toggle?
[ QUOTE ]
My fire sword went from dropping at least 1 toggle 100% of the time (yes I did several tests on several different brutes, aswell as several different stalkers, this is of course IF my firesword hit) to a 5% chance to drop 1 toggle ? A 1 in 20 chance of dropping 1 toggle ...
[/ QUOTE ]
WOO HOO!!!
After 25 failed attempts I was able to drop a toggle!! And it's SPRINT!!! Prepare to be pwned, scrapper!!
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
Whoah these changes are a bit extreme!
Bad show dude!
I think dominator toggle drops, due to their piddly damage output, was fine as-was.
Blasters needed to have their toggle dropping nearly outrigt removed. I was getting sick of having my Brute out-meleed by a ranged attack class.
Seriously.
Dropping a toggle is far away from defeating an opponent. An attack like Bone Smasher is (was) assured to drop one toggle, has something like a 50% chance to drop another, and a much lower chance to drop a third. Even if it drops three toggles, the blaster still has to lay out the damage to take down the melee. But the melee can run away until his toggles come back up. He can pop a green of two. He can hit the blaster with a stun attack of his own (which will stun the blaster and drop all of the blasters toggles). And melee players have learned to run lots of toggles in PvP zones as a defense against blasters and controllers. So I dropped three toggles? lets see, I got sprint, combat jumping, and just one of several defensive toggles. Hmmmm
And what happened to me, the squishy blaster, who just closed to zero range against a scrapper or brute?
Since PvP encounters tend to be very fast and very furious, just a few seconds of survivability makes all the difference. If I need 8 hits to take down a tank, odds are very good that the tank will not go down. He will either flee, beat me down instead, pop a couple of greens, or his teammates will save him and slaughter me.
As the melee toon on the receiving end of toggle drops, it may seem hugely effective against you, but from the blaster side (who cant see your trays) I may not see much difference at all. All I can see is your little green bar, and if I dont get it to black then my attack chain failed, whether or not I dropped most or all of your toggles.
It seems that some adjustment was indeed necessary, but this is just draconian. Ill get a 22% chance to drop a single toggle if my attack lands, and a far lower chance that itll be an important defensive toggle (as opposed to sprint or CJ). And then I still will need to beat down the melee toon with far more hit points that I have before he can beat me down or run away?
Sounds like its back to the early days in the Arena.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
Blasters needed to have their toggle dropping nearly outrigt removed.
[/ QUOTE ]
You got your wish. 
[ QUOTE ]
I was getting sick of having my Brute out-meleed by a ranged attack class.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. It sure is tiresome when those other players are able to defeat you. You choose the melee class toon, therefore by design you should always win against a "ranged attack class."
Sigh.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
Considering the number of toggles Scrappers and Tankers can run with their defenses, 22% is pretty much pointless.
Taking a look at a SR scrapper who could be running Combat Jumping, Superspeed, FF, FS, Sprint, maybe Evasion...and he has a click based mezz defense, so good luck trying to hold or knock him down. 100% at least gives me a chance to take something that might be able to pierce his defense.
That means to actually take down a key toggle to break that defense...it's a
22% (toggle drop chance) x 14% (1 in 7 chance to drop Focused Fighting) = 3% to nail a toggle that will actually make a difference.
I'm sorry, but if you're going to lower toggle dropping, then you better cut down scrapper and tanker damage too, considering the fact that scrappers can inflict some kind of status effect (knockdown, knockup, immobilize stun, fear), AND 2-3 most squishies all the while shrugging off mez effects long enough to finish their opponents.
[ QUOTE ]
But the melee can run away until his toggles come back up.
[/ QUOTE ]
1) Run away every few seconds? No thanks, not fun. The toggles on my tank were dropped constantly. Not occasionally, c o n s t a n t l y. So often I wondered why I bothered switching them on. Or bothered going into a PvP zone. Finally I stopped going there.
2) Oops, can't run away I'm perma-feared. Oh well, guess I'm being defeated again by a bad arena kludge called toggle dropping. Bleh, never mind this PvP stuff, it's no fun as a tank.
[ QUOTE ]
And melee players have learned to run lots of toggles in PvP zones as a defense against blasters and controllers. So I dropped three toggles?
[/ QUOTE ]
Total nonsense. I only run four toggles on my tank. Five with sprint. I'm not gimping my build just so I have more toggles running. Three toggles is practically shutting me down, and that's just ONE attack. As a tank I'm hit repeatedly by many attackers, it's impossible to keep toggles going at all. The corrections to toggle dropping in Issue 7 helps that, and will get you weaned from the toggle dropping crutch so that when it is removed entirely it won't be too big a blow.
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmm
And what happened to me, the squishy blaster, who just closed to zero range against a scrapper or brute?
[/ QUOTE ]
Wait until other teammates have engaged the melee. The game is not balanced for 1-vs-1 battles.
[ QUOTE ]
...or his teammates will save him and slaughter me.
[/ QUOTE ]
What are YOUR teammates doing? Aren't they supporting you?
[ QUOTE ]
It seems that some adjustment was indeed necessary, but this is just draconian.
[/ QUOTE ]
Allowing toggle dropping to continue after ED and I5 at all was draconian. Use your powers, coordinate with your team, don't rely on an old, obsolete kludge that is counter-immersive and has nothing to do with comic book battles (and renders useless tanker primary powersets).
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's convenient for you that your thread in Archetypes and Powers was deleted yesterday.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really. Would be easier than delving through the three pages of stickies looking for this. And I liked Centerfire's quote in there, I really should have saved that.
What, you think showing me playing along with the stupid song thread-jack would suddenly cause a change of heart? That responding in kind to Foo's 'What logic' statement and eyeroll would somehow make me feel really immature compared to someone who ignores arguements simply because they don't like the first sentence?
[/ QUOTE ]
I recall a couple outbursts from that thread - and honestly, CenterFire's post was pure whine.
As for why I stopped reading, your first sentence was basically "you're wrong" and an eyeroll.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm tired of going over exactly the same arguments over and over again. I'm tired of having my integrity attacked because I wanted toggle drops to be reduced.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then refute them or completely ignore them. Give a reason, rather than this bull of "You're wrong" or "Your example aren't enough or aren't good enough", or "I've answered this one before"?
I've yet to see you answer why Hurricane's current PvP kludge is acceptable. I've yet to see a single Tanker forumite comment on knockback suppression. Or Break Frees invalidating Dominator primary sets.
[/ QUOTE ]
I never said Hurricane's current PvP kludge is acceptable. If you consider me a "tanker forumite", I've already said before that knockback's suppression might be too much.
To be honest, as far as Hurricane goes, that's not really my gored ox. The biggest balance issue that I was personally aware of has finally been corrected - making the range debuff work on all ranged attacks, regardless of AT, and not work on all melee attacks, regardless of AT. I know that hurricane was altered to be, as the patch notes said "less abusive in PVP" but I haven't seen it in action since that change, so I couldn't comment on it with any kind of authority, because I don't know how it works.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but if you're going to lower toggle dropping, then you better cut down scrapper and tanker damage too, considering the fact that scrappers can inflict some kind of status effect (knockdown, knockup, immobilize stun, fear), AND 2-3 most squishies all the while shrugging off mez effects long enough to finish their opponents.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wait, scrappers and tankers were already nerfed in issue 5 and 6, when the global defense reduction and the change to mez shields was introduced. You want them to be nerfed again?
On teams, you might find that you'll do a lot better against melee, unless you're teamed with incompetent controllers or defenders.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
And I want to reiterate in here. I've gone into PvP with characters that are both squishy and never even had toggle dropping powers, and at least with the right primary I actually managed to kill melee foes. I killed Scrappers with my Corruptor. I killed Brutes with my Blaster. 100% solo? No. And to be fair, they weren't 100% solo when I killed them, either.
So having been there, I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that you need toggle dropping to defeat a melee. I'ts a massive exaggeration. What you do need is a team.
When one guy can come along and reliably shut off 1/2 the toggles on a Dark Armor character, something's just busted. Say what you will about the toggle dropping chances on live. In testing with a buddy he dropped 3 toggles every time he touched me with Bonesmasher.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
So having been there, I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that you need toggle dropping to defeat a melee. I'ts a massive exaggeration. What you do need is a team.
[/ QUOTE ]
That argument doesn't hold water with me. It's not balanced when it's takes multiple characters to take down one scrapper/tanker when that said scrapper/tanker can dismantle the opposing team by squishing the blaster or defender.
I haven't been advocating canceling the nerf altogether. I believe that limiting Blasters to only one attack that has strong (75-100%) chance to detoggle 1 (and only 1) toggle would be a better solution.
As for your example, that's just dead wrong. It's not a 100% chance to drop 3 toggles. Either you're overexaggerating or you used a small sample size of 2-3 attempts. I've been playing a fire/energy blaster since the summer of 2004, and I've tested and played energy against my sg mates. Bonesmasher does not drop 3 toggles 100% of the time.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but if you're going to lower toggle dropping, then you better cut down scrapper and tanker damage too, considering the fact that scrappers can inflict some kind of status effect (knockdown, knockup, immobilize stun, fear), AND 2-3 most squishies all the while shrugging off mez effects long enough to finish their opponents.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wait, scrappers and tankers were already nerfed in issue 5 and 6, when the global defense reduction and the change to mez shields was introduced. You want them to be nerfed again?
On teams, you might find that you'll do a lot better against melee, unless you're teamed with incompetent controllers or defenders.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've entered quite a few team PvP matches and it's more of the same. Scrappers and Tankers will invariably go after squishy controllers and defenders and take them out the equation, dividing the team and leaving a blaster like me isolated. A simple attack chain and the blaster is often toast. Even if I do manage to cause some serious damage to a scrapper or a tanker, usually a self heal will change the tide and give them the advantage again.
[ QUOTE ]
I think dominator toggle drops, due to their piddly damage output, was fine as-was.
Blasters needed to have their toggle dropping nearly outrigt removed. I was getting sick of having my Brute out-meleed by a ranged attack class.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But the melee can run away until his toggles come back up.
[/ QUOTE ]
1) Run away every few seconds? No thanks, not fun.
[/ QUOTE ]
Welcome to my world.
Running is perfectly fine for the squishy ATs, but its beneath almighty tanks. Not-fun tactics are for those who are not you. My bad.
[ QUOTE ]
2) Oops, can't run away I'm perma-feared. Oh well, guess I'm being defeated again by a bad arena kludge called toggle dropping. Bleh, never mind this PvP stuff, it's no fun as a tank.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmmm
I wonder why Ive never been able to fear a melee toon. Oh, wait, I dont have that power. I guess Ill just have to respec the fear power into my energy blaster build. I hope we get a free respect so I can do that.
Riiiiiiight.
[ QUOTE ]
I only run four toggles on my tank. Five with sprint. I'm not gimping my build just so I have more toggles running.
[/ QUOTE ]
TRANSLATION:
My PvE build is just fine for PvP. In fact, my build is perfect the way it is. Anything that happens in a PvP zone that shows off a weakness in my build is by definition unbalanced and unfair.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
It's convenient for you that your thread in Archetypes and Powers was deleted yesterday.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not really. Would be easier than delving through the three pages of stickies looking for this. And I liked Centerfire's quote in there, I really should have saved that.
What, you think showing me playing along with the stupid song thread-jack would suddenly cause a change of heart? That responding in kind to Foo's 'What logic' statement and eyeroll would somehow make me feel really immature compared to someone who ignores arguements simply because they don't like the first sentence?
[ QUOTE ]
I'm tired of going over exactly the same arguments over and over again. I'm tired of having my integrity attacked because I wanted toggle drops to be reduced.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then refute them or completely ignore them. Give a reason, rather than this bull of "You're wrong" or "Your example aren't enough or aren't good enough", or "I've answered this one before"?
I've yet to see you answer why Hurricane's current PvP kludge is acceptable. I've yet to see a single Tanker forumite comment on knockback suppression. Or Break Frees invalidating Dominator primary sets.