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Just why the heck do Stalkers still have the highest toggle drop chance??? Stalkers already have unresisted damage in their criticals.
If any AT should still have high toggle drop percentages it should be defenders who cannot dish out the damage needed to bring down a toggle heavy opponent.
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Stalker crits are resistable. Stalker Assassin Strikes "bonus" damage is not resistable.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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If Frozen Fists only have a 5% chance of dropping toggles in i7, does it mean MONSTERS, like Outcasts, will also follow these rules? Or will they drop our toggles as frequently as before?
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Monsters do not drop toggles.
Monsters may mez you, and this may cause your togges to drop. Monster powers do not and have never had the ability to drop togges except as a bug. To my knowledge most of those bugs were fixed by the time I5 rolled out. If you are still experiencing them, then report them as bugs.
Again, toggle dropping is not the same as being mezzed and losing your toggles.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
This kinda makes me sad ... I love toggle dropping ... It's what saves my blaster from the big bad brutes ...
My fire sword went from dropping at least 1 toggle 100% of the time (yes I did several tests on several different brutes, aswell as several different stalkers, this is of course IF my firesword hit) to a 5% chance to drop 1 toggle ? A 1 in 20 chance of dropping 1 toggle ...
I'll have a play and see how things go, but personally, I think it needs (all powers with the 5% to drop 1 toggle) to be upped to about 15% chance to drop 1 toggle at least, and those at 22% upped to about 35% ... I mean I have to contend with 2/3 of my attacks missing because of defense, now I have to contend with their defenses IF I hit aswell ?
OR! Give us a toggle drop enhancement to allow us to increase that percentage 
Anyways, back to test to ... urrr ... well test ... :P
CHAMPION!
Thank you for the numbers.
Based on some limited play experience in RV and Warburg on test (about 4 hours, with a Grav/Storm controller, a Fire/Fire blaster, a Kat/Inv scrapper, a Dark/Dark corruptor, and an EM/Regen stalker) I think you may need to reconsider some of those numbers.
Defender toggle dropping chances should almost certainly be raised a bit.
My stalker doesn't need toggle drops, I doubt any stalker needs toggle drops. Personally, I would remove the toggle drop from stalkers entirely.
Toggle drop percentages could be tweaked to help bring some PvP balance to blaster secondaries. While I think my /Fire blaster is fine in PvE (I love the AoE damage and am willing to sacrifice the control and single target damage for it), in PvP there is no counter-balance for lacking good single target damage and/or control effects. I certainly think the bigger percentage for toggle dropping should be in Fire Sword, not FSC.
I look forward to the day when toggle dropping can be completely removed (or reworked to be less annoying, such as toggle suppression), but I do feel that it is still a much needed mechanic currently. I remeber the original Arena days of my scrapper crushing all that stood before me, and while I do feel the balance may have shifted slightly too far to the other side with I5, my I7 test experiences with my scrapper (which was admittedly only about 30 minutes) leave me feeling that we may have shifted too far back the other way.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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These posted numbers make me extremely happy as a regular PVP'er. ED is the exact reason why toggle dropping wasn't necessary to the degree it currently exists in. Damn straight.
Yes maybe a few powers could be raised slightly, I'll give you that. But I've got no problem with these numbers staying as they are.
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I am honestly not surprised that Melee PvPers are happy about this change. It once again gives them the solid advantage in PvP. No, I have my Brute in PvP now and it is an even fight between myself and an Ice/EM blaster. After this change? Well, I guess I'll rack up another 400 rep point badge even faster with my Brute now. There isn't much blasters are going to be doing to me. I am somewhat upset that the challenge is being taken out of playing a melee character, but I guess most people that pick a melee character are not looking to play on a balanced playing field anyway. Hell, they had the advantage BEFORE the toggle drops were nerfed, now the advantage is so clear even an idiot can't fail to benefit. Which is what the whiners want of course.
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Because, of course, everyone who dislikes the toggle-dropping mechanic a) does not want balance, and b) is whining.
This is completely unlike blasters and defenders, who make heroic stands to explain why their ATs are flawed in PVE or PVP and never whine. 
Toggle-dropping is broken on live, anyway, because it's unevenly applied. Some powersets get huge doses of it, and some get hardly any at all, despite not being comparable to the former sets in other areas. It's also a kludgy mechanic designed to get around capped resists and 15-point mez protection shields, neither of which really exist anymore thanks to the combination of ED and the global defense reduction. Keeping TDs at their former numbers does nothing to help /fire blasters, who along with other not-energy blasters were doing fairly poorly in PVP already. Reducing the toggle-dropping doesn't really make things all that much worse for them, and might put /energy into the same ballpark. This will also make it easier to balance blasters as a whole to be more functional in PVP than they are now.
Toggle-dropping itself is an arbitrary mechanic grafted onto PVP to reliably deprive (at the time) two ATs of their defenses. It was probably necessary short of nerfing the heck out of those defenses at the time. Not surprisingly, the heck was nerfed later.
Also, I doubt these are going to be the final numbers. They're on the test server, and these things can change. I would expect to see the percentages get tweaked to match developer expectations. I would also like to see the sets that toggle-drop be examined and balanced so that one set doesn't have such a huge advantage over another set (like blaster /energy over /fire).
But, I don't think this is the tolling of the DOOM bell for squishies in PVP. I think this does alter the balance of 1v1 PVP, but trying to make that balanced is dumb anyway. The balance should be team vs. team, and I suspect this won't really interfere too much with that.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Just why the heck do Stalkers still have the highest toggle drop chance??? Stalkers already have unresisted damage in their criticals.
If any AT should still have high toggle drop percentages it should be defenders who cannot dish out the damage needed to bring down a toggle heavy opponent.
[/ QUOTE ]
Stalker crits are resistable. Stalker Assassin Strikes "bonus" damage is not resistable.
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I am not sure that is true but in either case, the point is that Stalkers already have unresisted damage so why should their attack also have a high toggle drop chance??
...and with placate they even got a freebe. That's another good question, why is Placate still auto hit?? Same rule as taunt should apply.
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These posted numbers make me extremely happy as a regular PVP'er. ED is the exact reason why toggle dropping wasn't necessary to the degree it currently exists in. Damn straight.
Yes maybe a few powers could be raised slightly, I'll give you that. But I've got no problem with these numbers staying as they are.
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I am honestly not surprised that Melee PvPers are happy about this change. It once again gives them the solid advantage in PvP. No, I have my Brute in PvP now and it is an even fight between myself and an Ice/EM blaster. After this change? Well, I guess I'll rack up another 400 rep point badge even faster with my Brute now. There isn't much blasters are going to be doing to me. I am somewhat upset that the challenge is being taken out of playing a melee character, but I guess most people that pick a melee character are not looking to play on a balanced playing field anyway. Hell, they had the advantage BEFORE the toggle drops were nerfed, now the advantage is so clear even an idiot can't fail to benefit. Which is what the whiners want of course.
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I see this as having a different affect on PvP. I have a DM/Regen and a Ice/energy blapper, so i am looking at this from both sides. With my blapper, i dont need a team to take on most mez protected players, attack chain is aim-intimidate-build-up-bone smasher-freeze ray-2 more ice attacks and whatever else i have that needs to finish them. So yea, i am a solo killing machine. So now I cant run around solo doing those things, so will need to team to get my own mez protection-healing-added damage. I see this as helping to shift the focus back to teams. Yea 1 on 1 my blapper could defeat most melee AT's. Now I have to team to get back to the same chance I had before. I dont see that as a bad thing at all.
In a perfect world, where tanks engaged brutes and scrappers engaged stalkers and squishies engaged one another or provided additional firepower or support, PvP would be balanced for teams.
In my experiences, however, the melee characters tend to ignore the other melee toons and engage the squishies. Of course, this doesn't happen 100% of the time and there are melee toons who don't do this. But I rarely see melee toons engaged in one-on one combat in a team environment.
Why? The effort involved in a melee taking down another melee can be significant. It's usually easier to just take out the squishy and move on.
In my experience, PvP capable squsihies aren't lying around waiting for the melee toons to engage them, and when they are engaged, their teammates assist them. Moreover, such capable toons have means of self-defense or escape.
Ever tried to kill an empath with buffed teammates using a Brute? Ever tried to kill an Ice/ or Sonic/ Corruptor using a Scrapper when their Brute and Stalker buddies are around?
With smart players wielding the better powersets, it's not as if either is a trivial task.
The notion that there are "better powersets" is a separate issue, and one, honestly, I'm not particularly keen on seeing addressed because what works well in PvE doesn't often translate to what works well in PvP, and changes in one often spill into the other.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Reducing the toggle-dropping doesn't really make things all that much worse for them, and might put /energy into the same ballpark.
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So... many... bad... assumptions.
The other powersets were just as reliant on toggledropping for what they did. They did not benefit from it as much, but, hell, ask half the Tanker forum - if they died, chances are it was from toggledropping. It makes things worse.
Still won't put Energy into the same ballpark, either. If the only thing you can do as an AT is run, Permaboost range is suddenly going to be a must-have. Hm, which powerset has that? Does a Taser compare? Caltrops people can hover over? Oh, I know, Time Bomb! That'll redeem the /Dev! Just like FCS will redeem /fire in PvP!
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It's also a kludgy mechanic designed to get around capped resists and 15-point mez protection shields, neither of which really exist anymore thanks to the combination of ED and the global defense reduction.
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Wow! It's a good thing that defense sets haven't gotten stronger in PvP since i6 came out. It's a good thing that Tankers can't still easily find themselves with upwards of 50% damage resistance. And it's a good thing every Blaster and Defender combo can get through the 11- and 9= point mez protection still in game, just as quickly as a Tanker can blow through a Blaster or Defender's mez protection with KO Blow. Because, otherwise, that arguement would be completely misleading.
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This will also make it easier to balance blasters as a whole to be more functional in PVP than they are now.
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Scheduled for : after secondaries get looked at.
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Toggle-dropping itself is an arbitrary mechanic grafted onto PVP to reliably deprive (at the time) two ATs of their defenses.
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So, I take it that you and the Tanker forum ilk will demand getting rid of mez suppression, knockback suppression, and while we're at it, the PvP-only changes to Hurricane, the PvP-only changes to Controller damag, all designed to reliably deprive characters of their defenses?
Strange. It's been, what, nearly three days, and I don't see a ten page post crying that knockback suppression should be removed so that Force Bolt - one of my only remaining personal defenses - can be used more than once a fight, against the rare enemy that isn't completely immune to it. No posts describing how their i4 level Holds no longer exist except in the memories of Controllers.
Oh, it only matters when it buggers real ATs, like Scrappers or Tankers?
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Also, I doubt these are going to be the final numbers. They're on the test server, and these things can change.
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I mean, look how great of a track record the Developers have on such things. They reversed the change to... stealth! And... er... STEALTH.
They wouldn't allow something crippling like Tanker attacks not even working right against moving targets onto the live servers. Or Kinetics powers not working even when players pay the endurance and the recharge and hit their opponents. Or Hurricane being utterly useless in PvP and easily reduced in PvE.
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Of course, I guess it is more fun to sit around and unconstructively whine about how the other guy whined to murder your fun. I guess that could be cool, like it was for the other six issues.
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Yes, because, as we all know, whining never gets things changed. I mean, after all, the 1-shot kill protection didn't come from whining. And neither did Tankers getting constantly more powerful attacks. Or the change to Hurricane.
These i7 nerfs to toggledropping? They're not around because people whined. _Castle_ just noticed that non-EM blasters had no chance in PVP, and decided that they needed to share the love.
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This is exactly what everyone has been asking for and exactly what was, in my opinion, very necessary. The chance to drop them is still there! It's just not guaranteed. There should never be one dynamic of a system that is counted on for a chance at success. If toggle dropping was a characters sole chance to be effective, then I think you need to be looking for a bigger problem here.
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QFT! Well spoken Smoke!
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
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Just why the heck do Stalkers still have the highest toggle drop chance??? Stalkers already have unresisted damage in their criticals.
If any AT should still have high toggle drop percentages it should be defenders who cannot dish out the damage needed to bring down a toggle heavy opponent.
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agreed. at least make them do the most unresistable damage.
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
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Strange. It's been, what, nearly three days, and I don't see a ten page post crying that knockback suppression should be removed so that Force Bolt - one of my only remaining personal defenses - can be used more than once a fight, against the rare enemy that isn't completely immune to it.
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Know what? It should invuln, ice, and stone tankers picking up the torch for FF and demanding that FF be bumped up for PvP. FF can turn these sets into "can't-touch-me" gods with the buffs.
Only ... how many bubblers will be drawn into PvP now? It is 0 fun to be reduce to a buff [censored].
FF has more powers that affect mobs (5) than def buffs (4). Those mob-affecting powers should do something in PvP other than pseudo-griefing (detention field).
I'm just sayin'.
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Those mob-affecting powers should do something in PvP other than pseudo-griefing (detention field).
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Don't worry. I doubt we'll benefit from even being able to pseudo-grief. If it ever becomes that popular, we'll have people whining and getting Detention Field nerfed..
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Welcome to MMO PVP. Whoever screams "WE SUCK" the loudest gets to be next months kings of pvp. It's basically one giant slow-motion ping pong tourney.
-Tsoo
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Heh yup.
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I wonder how come Dominators aren't Kings of PvP then 
I KNOW we (well, I) whine more than that.
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Issuse 8 FoTM prediction:
Mind/Energy Dom
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QFT
i predicted this months ago.
av's soloed + kronos, nemesis? and madame of mystery
Eat like snake!!
I am an experienced man.
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Just why the heck do Stalkers still have the highest toggle drop chance??? Stalkers already have unresisted damage in their criticals.
If any AT should still have high toggle drop percentages it should be defenders who cannot dish out the damage needed to bring down a toggle heavy opponent.
[/ QUOTE ]
Stalker crits are resistable. Stalker Assassin Strikes "bonus" damage is not resistable.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am not sure that is true but in either case, the point is that Stalkers already have unresisted damage so why should their attack also have a high toggle drop chance??
...and with placate they even got a freebe. That's another good question, why is Placate still auto hit?? Same rule as taunt should apply.
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placate pretty much is. although i think it has basically a higher to-hit than taunt. many times when 1 v 1 against a stalker they as, placate and yet i still see and target them easily as if the placate never happened.
i would say its about 50% that i can target them immediately after a placate.
Placate is autohit. The only time you'd be able to see them is if a) you have addition +perception, or b) you hit them before they finished the placate.
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So... many... bad... assumptions.
Wow! It's a good thing that defense sets haven't gotten stronger in PvP since i6 came out. It's a good thing that Tankers can't still easily find themselves with upwards of 50% damage resistance. And it's a good thing every Blaster and Defender combo can get through the 11- and 9= point mez protection still in game, just as quickly as a Tanker can blow through a Blaster or Defender's mez protection with KO Blow. Because, otherwise, that arguement would be completely misleading.
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speaking of bad assumptions thats one right there. sure SS tanks maybe the most common, just like em blasters or stalkers, but they are not hte only ones out there. take a look at axe or Mace tankers. do they have a single massive target attack like KO blow? absolutely not. combine that with axe doing KB which as you stated is almost worthless in pvp.
Maybe the #'s are a bit low but with these new numbers maybe my fire/axe tank will actually stay toggled long enough for me to do some actual damage to someone before im detoggled and held
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Placate is autohit. The only time you'd be able to see them is if a) you have addition +perception, or b) you hit them before they finished the placate.
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maybe thats how its supposed to be but not on live.
day the placate patch went live. had a FC match versus a stalker. 2 times noted in the match that he placated me and i could still attack.
instance 1 - BA had been detoggled. stalker placates me and jumps away to go into hide. i had no attacks queued except a brawl that missed. i could immediatly go over and attack him with swoop right away - i was not placated at all.
instance 2. Blazing Aura was up and did hit. was again able to walk over and hit.
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do they have a single massive target attack like KO blow?
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Swoop does 6 BI quickly, and Cleave does nearly 8. Axe doesn't need a high BI single power when it's got a string that powerful. Mace, well, mace is just weak. That's like me bringing up Dark Blast and saying Defender ST damage is weak.
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Maybe the #'s are a bit low but with these new numbers maybe my fire/axe tank will actually stay toggled long enough for me to do some actual damage to someone before im detoggled and held
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Yes, such a pity that Tankers are immune to Clear Mind, Clarity, O2 Boost, and Break Frees. Such a pity that, despite running upwards of seven toggles, Blasters can manipulate probability and chaos to always drop Fire Shield first.
fire shield oddly is the last one dropped for me on a regular basis. it usually goes in the following order.
1 - acrobatics
2 - tough or plasma shield
3 - Blazing aura or plasma shield
now that doesn't happen all the time, but i would say a good 70% of the time. i could live without FS but i NEED PS
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Can we get some numbers?
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Since you asked... (actually, this should have been done before.)
=========
Here is a complete list of all powers which have DropToggles associated with them and the percentage chance of the attribute taking place. In the case of powers which have a chance of dropping 2 toggles, I calculated the chance for this to happen and included it in the list.
Inherent: Brawl: 5% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Devices: Trip Mine: 5% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Devices: Time Bomb: 19% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Electrical Manipulation: Charged Brawl: 5% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Electrical Manipulation: Havok Punch: 22% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Energy Manipulation: Bone Smasher: 22% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Energy Manipulation: Energy Punch: 5% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Fire Manipulation: Fire Sword: 5% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Fire Manipulation: Fire Sword Circle: 22% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Ice Manipulation: Frozen Fists: 5% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Ice Manipulation: Ice Sword: 22% for 1 Toggle
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So...
Blaster: Assault Rifle: Beanbag: _______
Blaster: Devices: Taser ______
If they're zero - and since they're not on the list, I'm guessing they are zero - why would you take em?
ED was bad enough for a non-Build Up Blaster, but what has AR/Dev done NOW to get even more (ahem - SQUEALLLLL!!) 'love' this time? 
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Can we get some numbers?
[/ QUOTE ]
Since you asked... (actually, this should have been done before.)
=========
Here is a complete list of all powers which have DropToggles associated with them and the percentage chance of the attribute taking place. In the case of powers which have a chance of dropping 2 toggles, I calculated the chance for this to happen and included it in the list.
Inherent: Brawl: 5% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Devices: Trip Mine: 5% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Devices: Time Bomb: 19% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Electrical Manipulation: Charged Brawl: 5% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Electrical Manipulation: Havok Punch: 22% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Energy Manipulation: Bone Smasher: 22% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Energy Manipulation: Energy Punch: 5% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Fire Manipulation: Fire Sword: 5% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Fire Manipulation: Fire Sword Circle: 22% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Ice Manipulation: Frozen Fists: 5% for 1 Toggle
Blaster: Ice Manipulation: Ice Sword: 22% for 1 Toggle
[/ QUOTE ]
So...
Blaster: Assault Rifle: Beanbag: _______
Blaster: Devices: Taser ______
If they're zero - and since they're not on the list, I'm guessing they are zero - why would you take em?
ED was bad enough for a non-Build Up Blaster, but what has AR/Dev done NOW to get even more (ahem - SQUEALLLLL!!) 'love' this time?
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Status-effects like disorientation (stun), hold and sleep still drop all toggles.
I totally agree that a reduction from the current live toggle dropping percentages was needed, I just feel the numbers were reduced far to much. Toggle dropping was one of the best weapons squishies had against melee toons. This is basically giving a large buff to melee characters at squishy's expense. Please rethink the numbers, yes reduce them from current values, but please not to this extreme.
[ QUOTE ]
Just why the heck do Stalkers still have the highest toggle drop chance??? Stalkers already have unresisted damage in their criticals.
If any AT should still have high toggle drop percentages it should be defenders who cannot dish out the damage needed to bring down a toggle heavy opponent.
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Now do you see why Dominators were up in arms over the change that gives our first dropper a 5% chance? >.>