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Well, see, every time I have had a 1 on 1 with my Brute/Tanker/Scrapper vs. another tanker/scrapper (brutes generally being easy to kill) it has always ended in a stalemate, unless I try to drop their toggles for a victory, the fight generally doesn't go anywhere.
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Dunno how many times I've pointed this out on these forums, but the devs have said that the PvP game is not balanced for 1 on 1 fights, so if you find the 1 on 1 PvP experience unbalanced, that's because it is.
Lobbying for toggle dropping because otherwise 1 on 1 PvP is unbalanced (2 tanks getting nowhere, for instance) will have no traction, nor should it.
If you are having trouble in a 1 on 1 PvP fight, get help. Toggle dropping is not required, and was only included for Arena battles because Issue 5 and ED had not yet arrived.
Toggle dropping is an old arena kludge that was left in too long, and will probably entirely disappear in an issue or two..
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
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Well, see, every time I have had a 1 on 1 with my Brute/Tanker/Scrapper vs. another tanker/scrapper (brutes generally being easy to kill) it has always ended in a stalemate, unless I try to drop their toggles for a victory, the fight generally doesn't go anywhere.
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Dunno how many times I've pointed this out on these forums, but the devs have said that the PvP game is not balanced for 1 on 1 fights, so if you find the 1 on 1 PvP experience unbalanced, that's because it is.
Lobbying for toggle dropping because otherwise 1 on 1 PvP is unbalanced (2 tanks getting nowhere, for instance) will have no traction, nor should it.
If you are having trouble in a 1 on 1 PvP fight, get help. Toggle dropping is not required, and was only included for Arena battles because Issue 5 and ED had not yet arrived.
Toggle dropping is an old arena kludge that was left in too long, and will probably entirely disappear in an issue or two..
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I see a half truth here. Yes, the ORIGINAL IMPLEMENTATION of Toggle Dropping was an Arena Kludge...and was so high in the percentages BECAUSE (like you said), I5 and ED hadn't hit. But I don't see it going away. It is still a feature that adds an extra, if small, dynamic to PvP, and while the original was ridiculously too high and the current far too low, there IS a middle ground somewhere...we may not see it for an Issue (or three...), but I think it will come.
Specifically which AT's and powers do you think need to be increased?
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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Specifically which AT's and powers do you think need to be increased?
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Personally, Defenders, Blasters, Dominators, and Stalkers in my opinion could use a boost to toggle dropping. I would prefer the mechanic changed to something else entirely though. I would much rather have toggle suppression since that is more effective and is at the same time more fun for the masses.
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Specifically which AT's and powers do you think need to be increased?
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This shouldn't really come from the player base but instead be a Devs decision based on research and a coherent line of thought. Right know all we have is an across the board nerf with the only explanation given as ''It was too much". How did they come up with those numbers? What kind of dynamics are they trying to accomplish with TD? How do they envision the usage of toggle dropping powers and how often it should happen? What kind of powers and AT should be good at it?
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This shouldn't really come from the player base but instead be a Devs decision based on research and a coherent line of thought. Right know all we have is an across the board nerf with the only explanation given as ''It was too much". How did they come up with those numbers? What kind of dynamics are they trying to accomplish with TD? How do they envision the usage of toggle dropping powers and how often it should happen? What kind of powers and AT should be good at it?
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So what you really want is the devs to make a rational judgement based on datamining _and_ to explain that decision. For one, I think they probably did make a rational judgement but its not beyond what I would consider reasonable for those numbers to get an upward nudge. I don't really expect them to explain themselves, although more data is always a good thing, they don't want to expose too much of their internal debates to us the players.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
Defenders and Dominators I'd go along with, I don't know that Stalkers and Blasters need toggle drops to be valuable in PvP. Defenders are almost always interchangeable with Controllers and adding something else to their mix might mean we see more than just Emp and the occasional Storm Defender in organized PvP. Doms already have the highest (reliable) toggle drops post I7, which is good, but it could probably go up to ~75% (from 64%) for one toggle without being balance threatening.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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Well, see, every time I have had a 1 on 1 with my Brute/Tanker/Scrapper vs. another tanker/scrapper (brutes generally being easy to kill) it has always ended in a stalemate, unless I try to drop their toggles for a victory, the fight generally doesn't go anywhere.
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Dunno how many times I've pointed this out on these forums, but the devs have said that the PvP game is not balanced for 1 on 1 fights, so if you find the 1 on 1 PvP experience unbalanced, that's because it is.
Lobbying for toggle dropping because otherwise 1 on 1 PvP is unbalanced (2 tanks getting nowhere, for instance) will have no traction, nor should it.
If you are having trouble in a 1 on 1 PvP fight, get help. Toggle dropping is not required, and was only included for Arena battles because Issue 5 and ED had not yet arrived.
Toggle dropping is an old arena kludge that was left in too long, and will probably entirely disappear in an issue or two..
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I, for one, will be happy to see it go. But there needs to be something put in place that gives those archtypes that had to rely on it some of their teeth back. Blasters will only have the option now of blasting people to death, getting in close enough to drop toggles with their melee attacks will likely be fatal. That's as it should be, of course, as even Statesman himself has said that a blaster's defense is his range. Immobilizes negate that defense, as do holds, disorients, sleeps, slows. Defenders are in even worse shape as they don't even benefit from a blaster's unresistable damage. I honestly don't have a good idea for how to fix either, but think their inherent powers could be put to better use in both cases.
It's been said numerous times that a defender can't defend if he's held, and that's likely one of the biggest causes of them being easy targets in PvP. As for blasters, in my mind anything that requires you to be half dead for it to work is broken by default. I think blasters having a higher amount of unresistable damage (perhaps scaling based on what archtype they're hitting, so it's less brutal to weaker toons) may work. Defenders should perhaps become harder to hit and/or hold as their team takes damage, and if they aren't on a team, it should run off of their own health. Another option would be to possibly allow defender buffs to affect the defender, in every powerset. This would give them greater access to +defense/resistance and status protections, and could even be modified so they get less protection than they give to others. Something is better than nothing.
Just my two influence.
Debt is temporary, prestige is forever
My Screenies and Videos :: My Toon List
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But there needs to be something put in place that gives those archtypes that had to rely on it some of their teeth back.
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I5 and ED gave them all the teeth they need. Thanks to those huge nerfs invuln tanks can achieve a maximum of 27.5% resistance to non-s/l damage. So 72.5% damage comes right thru, and blasters (for example) still get that 30% unresistable damage thing.
How much more teeth do you want? Some sort of massive inherent AoE debuff field that affects all ATs within 100 yards of a blaster so that blaster damage is effectively doubled?
Defenders could get a boost to their inherent so that all they have to do is wave their hand and other ATs shatter like glass when touched.
Controllers can just have 6x their normal damage in PvP, why not?
ED and I5 nerfed the daylights out of tanks, and PvP bonuses were left in (such as unresistable crits), so no compensation needs to be made for the elimination of toggle dropping. Compensation = I5 and ED and PvP bonuses (tanks get no PvP bonus).
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
Wouldn't mind Archery and Assualt Rifle getting sharper teeth. (As it stands now, villians mostly ignore me if I shoot at them with Archery, I try to use my melee, then I'm actualy noticed.)
Did a test pvp raid with Sg, Charged Brawl to Havoc Punch to Thunder Strike caused a scrapper to drop and knock a fire tank on his back. I contribute that to their toggles being dropped. Did the same combo (yes both times Build and Aim were used) against a blaster who was running Force of Nature. Half killed him...
Next, used archery (all my attacks...) Couldn't do enough damage to any of them. If I had enough time, I could possibly have shot the Blaster to death, he being Ice however, shot me into the ground in no time flat.
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ED and I5 nerfed the daylights out of tanks....
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Did it nerf them, or did it put them on a powerlevel par with the rest of the world?
The rest of your post is exaggeration of course, but funny.
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Defenders could get a boost to their inherent so that all they have to do is wave their hand and other ATs shatter like glass when touched.
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Of course, this had me howling.
One on One Tanks are still stronger Defensively then any AT in the game. The only guaranteed way of killing a tank isn't from damage its from pinning them in place and reducing thier defenses to the point that they can be killed. If they have additional buffs from thier team mates even dropping most or all of thier toggles will not guarantee a kill.
Toggle dropping is not the problem its the fact that its what happens first when checking for damage that is the problem. If it dealt damage, then checked Mez Magnitude and then checked for toggle drops, the number and effectiveness of toggle drops would be about right.
Putting all the toggle dropping powers in the same Category as ones who also include Sleep and Disorient is unfair to the Force Bolts of the game.
I5 didn't horribly nerf Tankers and Scrappers, it just lowered thier defenses to the point of not requiring an entire team to kill them. Of Course that fact that it still takes multiple players (Without Dropping toggles) to kill a Tank before he can run away is lost on most tanks.
Not all powers of the Toggle Dropping Variety are equal. I'm mystified that a power that can do 4 points + Knockback had its toggle dropping reduced to a mere 5%, While Dominator's Total Focus has a 64% chance of dropping a toggle.
Ok i know this is off topic.... but i had to reply.
And i am sure many players have noticed all this, but just have not said any of this.
Actualy tanks and brutes have a defense that is kind of pathetically one sided.
I played for about 5 hours yesterday and kept getting schooled by the typical Spines Regen players
Mostly from the stalker Spines and regen i might add.
So i decided to give the villains a taste of their own medicine and made a level 40 spines regen scrapper and schooled them back.
I found it took a measily 30 players to eventually kill me, since all i did was the atypical jump around and shoot...and get someone by themselves and kill them.
I found it took maybe 5 or 6 players to take down any tank build or brute build...that includes stone, fire, and invulnerability
So to me....call me crazy that means tanks where nerfed big time and are not that great anymore....i recall taking barely anydamage from things...btu now i am taking over 10 times more damage then i used to.
I also tried some brute builds, but mostly i found i had to run away constantly...because the resistance and defenses where not enough to stop the damage and my energy usage was way over the top.
On the scrappers and stalkers i made....i could at least get away almost every time.
I think my favorite gank on me was when a huge...and i am talking a huge amount of master minds with pets each in turn teleported me until they succeeded...and then had this huge swatch of pets annihilate me.
I have a screen shot too.....I think that must have been about 15 master minds with 6 pets each all mauling me.
I still escaped though.....it actually took the 10 brutes chasing me to eventually wear me down.(all of them had super jump and they kept taunting me....lmao)
So anywise...defensive wise...sorry but the scrapper and stalkers eat the tanks for breakfast defense wise.
In my expereince Brutes and Tanks are one trick ponies in that they get defenses versus only so many attacks then boom, they are useless against a number of them...and the brutes and tanks consume too much energy in their attacks and defenses to keep it up.
I.e. Thats why you see those players constantly run away...its becasue they dont have enough energy to stay and play nor the ability to maintain the damage resistance or defenses they have.
Kind of disproportionate...
Sent in bug reports about that...as its contrary to a balanced game and contrary to the Tank and Brute Descriptions.
Any time it takes 5-6 players to drop a single player thier defenses are unbalanced. If I said my Mastermind is weak because it takes 6 players fighting just me to kill me then people would be claiming I'm broken.
I think that each skill should've been evaluated instead of just carte blanche nerfed.
I will, of course, speak to my own skills, actually just *one* skill, Force Bolt.
The only reason I used force bolt was because it was a long range brawl, with some knockback capability.
I would spam that and drop 1 toggle every 5 hits or so, it wasnt GREAT but it worked. The skill does ~5 damage. No Problem! It shouldnt be that powerful, it's a detoggler.
Well, okay... so now you've nerfed it's one of it's very useful component, leaving it as a low damage, knockback... how the hell is that supposed to be useful against anyone who is good in PVP?
Do something with it, up it's damage, increase it's knockback magnitude, or up it's detoggle chance.
Please, stop nerfing skills into obsoleteness...
I'd complain about Repulsion Field and Force Bomb, but I'm not *FORCED* to take those skills, although you've nerfed them into oblivion also... (Yay, a force bomb that's slow, does no damage and doesn't disorient or detoggle! A force field that doesn't detoggle, doesn't really repel and uses lot's of endurance, YES MORE PLEASE!)
Pfft, you people need to stop using data mining and start playing. Your getting as bad as the EQ staff.
Still no news from the devs on Toggle Drops.
<ul type="square"> [*] Devs, you over-nerfed Force Bolt and Thunderclap. Those powers are back to being completely useless. [*] Give Dominators and Defenders an AT modifier for TD. [*] Give knockback powers a small chance for TD, it's a useless secondary (more so with the current nerf). Make TD part of the gameplay. Balanced, it can give an interesing dimension to pvp.[*] The higher the damage on a power the lower the TD chance should be - not the other way around..[*] Mezzing power should have a reduced chance for TD, not a higher chance.[/list]
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Well, let me say this much on the whole "blapping is the only way".
I took my Ice/Devices Blaster into SC one evening. I stayed there about 4 hours. I'd never PvP'd with that character before.
I sure as hell didn't blap. I didn't use Trip Mines. I didn't use my secondary at all. I don't have TP foe.
I did have one teammate - a Spines/Regen Scrapper. I did hang out near other heroes, and would retreat to things like Dispersion Bubble or Hurricane when we got too spread out or there was too much stuff after me.
I ended they night with a repuation of 77. I easily produced 1/2 of that on my own. I killed people with the Ice Blast primary and pretty much nothing else. The only secondary power used was Web Grenade.
Do I think that's a characteristic example that means everything is fine? No. Ice is a strong primary. The villains that night could have been really gimp.
But it certainly suggests to me that raw damage goes a long, long way when it has some teammates to back it up.
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With toggle dropping's relevance downgraded, ghetto holds via stacked slows is the new pink. As a device blaster you have access to webnade which, in conjunction with ice = somewhat lessened ability on the part of the opponent.
Sigh. This makes my /Rad Corruptor almost invincible. His toggles can rarely be dropped now. In the unlucky event that they are? Pah, no matter, wait for it to recharge, stack it back on them.
Duke Crowley used to have some intense fights with people. Their only saving grace against him was dropping his debuffs. Now he'll just be able to breeze through everyone.
Hey Duke Crowley, I actually teamed with you awhile back with my Merc/TA MM. Always nice to meet another player that is gung-ho in PvE and is willing to RP a bit.
Do you still have that arm eating addiction?
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Did it nerf them, or did it put them on a powerlevel par with the rest of the world?
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Depends which tank set you are speaking of.
ED didn't treat all sets equally.
A set that has passives which were mostly effective when 6 slotted such as the ones in INV got the shaft. While sets like Ice that have a defensive power like Energy Absortion that already had diversified slotting didnt get bothered by ED and in fact is doing great after a handful of number buffs for ICE.
While INV continued its downward spiral in useful PVP Tank sets.
INV is not onpar with in the pvp system of COH for Tanks, scraps, or brutes.
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I think that each skill should've been evaluated instead of just carte blanche nerfed.
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I really agree with this.
In blaster sets, Elec Manip and Energy Melee get toggle drops that have mezzes attached which adds the chance of having the target mezzed with all toggles dropped, while other sets don't have such a good secondary chance.
The tog droppers that don't have attached chance for mezzing should have a higher chance to drop toggles then attacks with attached chance to mezz.
Also, in the /Devices line which power has the 64% chance to drop a toggle Trip Mine or Time bomb?
meh. Dom's still got the shaft on this one. Blasters could do serious damage (unresistable damage). In city of break free's Dom's had toggle drops (if you actually hit). No longer, the % is very low (messed with it myself) and not reliable. If I can get 2 shotted at range, what the point of the small % for melee powers? What happened to risk vs. Reward? The risk is VERY high, the reward is VERY low.
Im not much into the whole toggle dropping thing as far as my doms melee attacks.I usually bounce around like a rabid chipmunk throwing every hold i got then the 3rd one hits and boom there goes ALL the toggles I cant think of a songle time ive attacked with my melee powers for toggle dropping purposes.If i move to melee its because your held and its more dmg thats it.
I know the feeling of being on the other end of toggle dropping as well,playing my invul scrapper is a nightmare atm.Hit twice and wham all toggles gone and held makes me wonder why i even took my secondary toggles.Stacking mezzes was fine if u asked me most tanks/scrappers are so over confident in their mez protection they dont even realize it only takes 3 holds to break them (excluding granite and some other tank shields)in general.
I personally dont have any trouble at all in PvP with my dom whether against a spines scrap or not,I cant touch an ice blaster carrying break frees though for obvious reasons.But all and all im fine with having zero toggle drops in the game i dont think its necissary.
Just my 2 Inf. im sure most dont agree
Wrath
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So heres my challenge:
(1) Explain exactly WHY an AT with so many melee powers in all their different secondaries should not be effective in melee.
(2) Explain exactly WHY it is bad for a brutes secondary powers to be ineffective in PvP, but its OK for blasters secondaries to be made ineffective.
[/ QUOTE ]Last time I checked, those Blaster melee attacks still did a heck of a lot of damage. Far as I can tell, the toggle drop rate changes didn't remove any of that damage.
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OK, so it sounds like blasters melee-based secondaries are considered effective in PvP.
So then why are so many melee players saying that its unfair for blasters to be effective in melee range? (Not singling out Uberguy or Snakegandhi as saying this.)
I guess its this point Im interested in addressing.
I understand the many posters who are saying that current toggle dropping levels are too high. I can see that now. Yes, I have actually come around to agree with the other side in a forum debate! I think that the proposed changes are too much, but I can see that some change is necessary.
Still, that doesnt address what I see as a significant problem with the perspective of many (not all) melee players here. Thats the attitude that says blasters should not be as good at melee as I am. or I am a brute, squishies must all fall before me or theres something very wrong with game balance.
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Hi Zub...
To me when it comes down to the character creation screen. When I build a Scrapper it says that few can match the Scrapper in hand to hand (or somesuch) so I expect the Scrapper to be the king of melee.
I have no objects to Blasters doing a fair amount of damage up close, something must offset their low defenses and hit points after all...but I do feel Scrappers should be the comparison point for melee ATs.
As to the toggle drop changes, I see them as positive. I can't remember the amount of times I've been stunned and toggle dropped by an Energy Melee or even Assault Rifle and gone squish.
If, in the end, this adds more survivability to the various archetypes and makes more people try PvP, it's a positive change.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
Thanks for the solid numbers, Castle. I'm curious how much of these numbers are arbitrary and untested in a PvP environment. You're going to make it harder for blasters to kill scrappers or tanks with this. And it makes the lives of defenders even more difficult. Not that any of that matters, the PvP zones will still be owned by stalkers. Thanks for giving us the tools to make an informed decision, though. The numbers should be made available for more things, like resistance/defense levels and the like. Or you can keep on forcing players to spend hours of testing and research to figure them out anyway. Time sinks like that plus monthly fees are a good match, I suppose.
Debt is temporary, prestige is forever
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