I don't count mezzing or endurance drain as toggle droppers. They drop toggles as a consequence of their effects, but it's not really the same thing to me.
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I will say that a 100% toggle dropper had better have some serious sort of downside, or alternatively only given to a power set that barely has more damage than brawl, or its unlikely to be fair.
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Something along the lines of Storm's Thunderclap? Or Kin's Repel?
I hate to even open the door to something along these lines - but Defenders definitely need SOMETHING. Maybe a very high % toggle drop in each of their Primarys might not be out of the question??!??!?!?!?! Maybe. Pick a horrible current power and give it some love. Black Hole for Dark for instance.
The only problem with this is if you did it EVERYONE would start their justifaction threads why "X" AT needs a similar power.
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Please find some other way to make defenders more viable in PVP. Toggle-dropping is just a bad mechanic.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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I have a suggestion, but I don't know how much this would take to apply
While the toggle drop values seem a little low right now(i think def, corr and 1st power of a dom should have a little better chance) (i also think the dom 2nd power should be a bit lower like 33% maybe)I think there would be a perfect way to still actually have people think it's worth it to get in there for toggle drops even though the danger has increased significantly for squishies
I think there should be a 2 minute recharge debuff on any power that has been toggle dropped, otherwise toggle drops dont mean much to tanks and such as they can throw it back on in 2 seconds, this way any tank that has a toggle dropped would be in a bit of danger and actually get scared
lemme know wut u think of this
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Ummmmmmmm.......No.
If I could hit a Blaster with a power that made them unable to use their offense for 2 minutes, would you think that'd be fair?
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You can its called a hold. (breakfrees do run out)
Theres also disorients.
There's also Build up Assassin Strike Placate then critical. (a trip to the hospital does stop a blaster from using powers fora while....at minimum 30sec. at Max, until they can find you again.)
But I do think the original suggestion is a bad idea. I just had to point out the FLAWED reasoning from the other poster.
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Hey give me a buff available at level 30 that completely negates toggle drops and you can have your toggle drops back. Also I also want the inspiration that is a backup. I also want the toggle drops to be momentary like toggle drops where I dont have to do anything for them to pop back up. The duration should also be like the duration of a disorient with the same chance to disorient for the attacks and if you want it longer you have to waste slots in your attacks.
Hmmm you're still getting the better end of the deal because of how much damage you do compared to us.
hah wow...brawl got nerfed lol.
How many of you have faced a blaster now with the new toggle drops?
Nice, they've stripped the sole reason a scrapper might have been causious to attack a blaster, as the blaster might drop his toggles and burst dmg his buttocks to the hospital... to the point where the scrapper knows "hey cool a blaster, with a total of roughly 30% to drop one toggle every 8 seconds... while I usually only need about 6 to drop him..I like those odds"
/e Rant off
But seriously, one of the most common AT's atm in PvPland are scrappers & stalkers. Couple of controllers and corruptors, and a daring blaster or Brute here and there. Now with these changes, I fear the Masterminds, Dominators, Defenders and the rest of the AT's will be a tourist attraction whenever you see one in PvP land.
Careful guys, a scrapper.... we need at least 3 to take him down now (debuff-nerf ring a bell?)
Naaah... PvP has become City of Scrappers 
Whooptidoo
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How many of you have faced a blaster now with the new toggle drops?
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Negatory. I have also not had the chance to test AS a Blaster...since zoning is still crashing on Test. Waiting for the fix, will report when that changes...
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How many of you have faced a blaster now with the new toggle drops?
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I have a fire/em blaster that i took on test to see about the toggles droppings of my friend, lvl 40 brute, in Sirens Call...first time I hit him, boom knocked them all off. Second time nothing, third time, all off again. Tried again last night, didnt knock them off once, if this clears up your question. I tried more than 3 times too, prolly close to 15, and when i did drop a toggle wasn't a serious one, something like sprint. I have BU+AIM with 3 tohitt buffs in them too. Might want to check it out for yourself, but this is what i got when i tried. 
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<edit for example :
Blaster melee attacks gain a significant but uncertain chance "stagger" the opponent, causing a status effect like Disorient, but without detoggling or prevention of attack powers. During stagger, a target gets 100% -hold, -immob, -fear, and -disorient debuff, and <pipedream>powers like Phase Shift/Hibernate/PFF/Granite Armor can not be activated</pipedream>. Regeneration and heal powers may have to get a penalty during stagger. Individual staggers are subject to mez suppression, and can only last a short duration, probably two or three times the animation time of the power that starts them (outside of powers such as Ice Slick, knockback powers, which had their primary effect specifically neutered for PvP. They may be better off with a -knockback protection aspect, or just a longer stagger effect). >
No, it's still not a great mechanic. I don't expect to find a great mechanic in PvP. I just want to find the least bad one, and this certainly seems more effective than base PVE ruleset, without having the same irritation or border cases that TDs had.
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This is similar to an idea I had (even to the point of calling it "Stagger"). I just hadn't had time to post it yet. 
I think the real problem that toggle drops are intended to solve is the imbalance in mez protection between classes. Squishies can actually get substantial resistance and some defense if they stack skills from their primaries and secondaries with pool and ancillary powers, but these are worthless in PvP due to the prevalence of mezzes. The only characters with any sort of protection for their defensive toggles are the melees and a few Controllers with a certain Ancillary. Furthermore, most of a squishie's active defense (non-toggle) comes in the form of mezzes. So not only do the non-melees have a lack of protection from status effects, nearly half of the ATs (and in practice, WELL over half of their opponents in PvP) are nearly immune to their only defensive abilities.
This information is not news to anybody and it has been debated to death. I only include it to emphasize why a toggle drop replacement must focus on decreasing mez resistance.
Here is what I propose: Replace a chance to drop toggles with a chance to apply a short duration (5-10 second) mez resistance debuff. As I see it, a roughly 20% chance to apply a debuff equivalent to a scrappers mez resistance is fair, but obviously the numbers are flexible. In effect, the attack would have a chance to decrease a melee to "squishie" levels of mez resistance for a very short time.
Advantages:
<ul type="square">[*]No annoying toggle drops/re-toggles.
[*]Goes straight for the most important toggle, making it far more reliable and requiring less goofy toggle obfuscation by players.
[*]Is more effective on Scrappers than Tankers allowing Tankers to keep their edge in mez resistance.
[*]Requires not only a successful mez resistance debuff but a successful status effect within the duration of the debuff to have any effect, emphasizing team work and/or diversity of build.
[*]Should not require any significant new coding on the part of the Devs. If mez resistance can be buffed, I'm sure it can be debuffed. All that would be required is to add a chance to cast this debuff to certain attacks. This avoids messy "toggle suppression" systems that would divert developer effort from more interesting additions to the game.
[*]Can be entirely negated by teaming and gives a stronger role to less popular PvP archetypes. If you don't want to run the risk of having your toggles dropped, have a Defender or Controller available to keep a Clear Mind or Increase Density on you. The stacked mez protection will leave you well defended even if an attack debuffs you.[/list]
Disadvantages
<ul type="square"> [*]Treats click and toggle mez resistance differently. A click mez resistance will pop right back up after the debuff expires and break the mez. A toggle mez protection will stay down. Obviously, this same imbalance already exists with the current toggle drop system, so I think it is not a significant issue.
[*]May not work properly with the "undroppable" toggles like Granite Armor. If there is no way in the code to protect these toggles, the best fix for this would be to apply a few more points of mez resistance to these toggles to make it a little harder to sneak a mez past them.[/list]
What do you think? Is this a viable replacement to toggle drops? If you think so, perhaps PM my suggestion to a red name and get them thinking about it too.
Tried out my AR/Dev in pvp and do have one positive comment. At least I can help spotting stalkers when there isn't a /regen or empath around... Killing things other than corruptors has gotten more difficult. Much more difficult. I thought some scrapper/tank/brute types were already requiring 3+ opponents to take down with toggle dropping as is, and honestly without caltropping for safety while laying ten trip mines do I see AR/Dev taking out a non-squishy without the hand of god poking doom and sprinkling lucky cats around.
On a good note, my MA stalker and an EM brute did manage to take down an Invuln/SS tank. Took ten minutes and he had us to a sliver of life after our inspirations were all used, but yes he died. Surprised he didn't complain death detoggled him hehe.
Disadvantages
Amplifies the disparity between /eng, /elec and other blapper sets. Decreases the chance for any real effect from non /eng non /elec sets, but increases the chance for an energy/electric mez to completely detoggle all of the toggles of the scrapper or tanker.
The main problem with this idea is that its even more all or nothing than conventional toggle dropping. If you make melee vulnerable to mez, then either the vulnerability is so low its meaningless, or its high enough to actually allow melee to be mezzed, and being mezzed is in effect a 100% chance to drop all all your toggles instantly.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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So basically, 1 vs. 1 PVP as we know it between tanks, brutes, and scrappers is dead, because no one will ever be able to drop the toggles to kill any of the above?
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
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The main problem with this idea is that its even more all or nothing than conventional toggle dropping. If you make melee vulnerable to mez, then either the vulnerability is so low its meaningless, or its high enough to actually allow melee to be mezzed, and being mezzed is in effect a 100% chance to drop all all your toggles instantly.
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This game wasn't originally designed for PvP, and the mez mechanics really show it. I don't like the "all or nothing" aspect of being mezzed myself, but everyone has to deal with it if they want to PvP. Unlike the current toggle drop kludge, though, losing ANY of your toggles would be completely avoidable with stacked status protections (if my suggestion were implemented).
Naturally, I don't really expect this to be implemented. I was just trying to come up with a fix that might please most of the people most of the time. I dropped it in this thread because reading all the complaining about toggle drops is what got me thinking about it.
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Nice, they've stripped the sole reason a scrapper might have been causious to attack a blaster, as the blaster might drop his toggles and burst dmg his buttocks to the hospital... to the point where the scrapper knows "hey cool a blaster, with a total of roughly 30% to drop one toggle every 8 seconds... while I usually only need about 6 to drop him..I like those odds"
/e Rant off
But seriously, one of the most common AT's atm in PvPland are scrappers & stalkers. Couple of controllers and corruptors, and a daring blaster or Brute here and there. Now with these changes, I fear the Masterminds, Dominators, Defenders and the rest of the AT's will be a tourist attraction whenever you see one in PvP land.
Careful guys, a scrapper.... we need at least 3 to take him down now (debuff-nerf ring a bell?)
Naaah... PvP has become City of Scrappers
Whooptidoo
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Sorry bud, your wrong. 90% of the scrappers you see in pvp are Regen scrappers. Toggle dropping dont mean jack to them. All they have to do is keep Intergration up, big whoop.
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So basically, 1 vs. 1 PVP as we know it between tanks, brutes, and scrappers is dead, because no one will ever be able to drop the toggles to kill any of the above?
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That's one of the silliest quotes I have ever read...hyperbole at its best.
I'm a pvp addict and I pvp with all my toons (2 /regen scrappers, 2 tanks, 1 brute, 1 mm, 1 corruptor, 1 dominator, 1 controller, 1 blaster). And 1v1 melee fighting is alive and well, thank you very much.
I never relied on dropping someones toggles while using my scrappers to kill another scrapper or tank for that matter. That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. The fights would last longer, absolutely, but it felt more epic and challenging than using such a "cheap" tactic as dropping someone's toggles...please, give me a break!
Cheers!
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I never relied on dropping someones toggles while using my scrappers to kill another scrapper or tank for that matter. That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. The fights would last longer, absolutely, but it felt more epic and challenging than using such a "cheap" tactic as dropping someone's toggles...please, give me a break!
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Well, see, every time I have had a 1 on 1 with my Brute/Tanker/Scrapper vs. another tanker/scrapper (brutes generally being easy to kill) it has always ended in a stalemate, unless I try to drop their toggles for a victory, the fight generally doesn't go anywhere.
Dawnslayer on Virtue.
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I never relied on dropping someones toggles while using my scrappers to kill another scrapper or tank for that matter. That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. The fights would last longer, absolutely, but it felt more epic and challenging than using such a "cheap" tactic as dropping someone's toggles...please, give me a break!
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Well, see, every time I have had a 1 on 1 with my Brute/Tanker/Scrapper vs. another tanker/scrapper (brutes generally being easy to kill) it has always ended in a stalemate, unless I try to drop their toggles for a victory, the fight generally doesn't go anywhere.
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More information would help...what type of scrapper, brute or tanker do you use and what have you fought to a stalemate. If you want to test further, we can meet in the Arena in the test server and see...just send me PM at my global @Machete.
just chiming in to voice my opinion on the toggle drop changes..
I think generally the changes are a bit too much. Blasters shouldnt have been dropping 2-3 toggles with one hit but should have more than the new changes. I think the main issue with blasters and toggle drops is they had the best toggle dropping abilities in the game AND the ability to 2-3 shot kill people at the same time (assuming it's the rampant ice/nrg fotm).
controllers have no business with the toggle droppers, and as a storm controller player, I don't care if the toggle drops were gutted for storm (controller version). However I also do have a storm defender. Do storm defenders deserve to get thunderclap and LS dropped to under 15% for one toggle? absolutely not. Even with toggle drops i would struggle to even finish other squishies, forget trying to kill a scrapper or tank. Defenders IMO should have much stronger chances of toggle dropping, because as far as their offense goes, they aren't going to be a threat to anyone (other than rad/psi perhaps). Seriously, there should be a reason to go defender over controller, unfortunately, this was never the case for a long time.
with the new changes to hurricane, it really makes me wonder if a 12% toggle drop chance for thunderclap is even worth it. I get a 12% chance to drop one of the melee AT's toggle, but that guy also has a 50% or better chance of KOing me while I'm performing that ridiculously long animation. Risk vs Reward? Risk, sure, reward, no.
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So basically, 1 vs. 1 PVP as we know it between tanks, brutes, and scrappers is dead, because no one will ever be able to drop the toggles to kill any of the above?
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No, because - to be honest - this isn't necessary to win all 1v1 melee fights.
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Nice, they've stripped the sole reason a scrapper might have been causious to attack a blaster, as the blaster might drop his toggles and burst dmg his buttocks to the hospital... to the point where the scrapper knows "hey cool a blaster, with a total of roughly 30% to drop one toggle every 8 seconds... while I usually only need about 6 to drop him..I like those odds"
/e Rant off
But seriously, one of the most common AT's atm in PvPland are scrappers & stalkers. Couple of controllers and corruptors, and a daring blaster or Brute here and there. Now with these changes, I fear the Masterminds, Dominators, Defenders and the rest of the AT's will be a tourist attraction whenever you see one in PvP land.
Careful guys, a scrapper.... we need at least 3 to take him down now (debuff-nerf ring a bell?)
Naaah... PvP has become City of Scrappers
Whooptidoo
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Sorry bud, your wrong. 90% of the scrappers you see in pvp are Regen scrappers. Toggle dropping dont mean jack to them. All they have to do is keep Intergration up, big whoop.
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I found regen to be the easiest to take out in PVP with my ice tanker.
Strange...
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
Yeah, given that Regen has one toggle in the base powers, they're the easiest of all to detoggle.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Are /fire and /ice defeating you in the same mannor?
[/ QUOTE ]You know, I don't recall ever seeing a /Fire or an /Ice Blaster in PvP.
I know I haven't seen any of those secondary's used against me. Well, at least not the melee attacks.
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There are a few players on Virtue with those secondarys, and they do very well. They will generally kite their opponent from range, sometimes swooping in to finish with melee, but usually just Blasting from range. And yes, they do take down Brutes with a frightening efficiency.
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As a /dark brute on virtue I can vouge for that. Many ranged blasters have beaten me purely using ranged attacks. I have also experienced my toggles being dropped 2 and 3 at a time nearly everytime. I know the numbers say it should be otherwise however from my experience it's not. I run 7 toggles as a /dark and it's almost always one if not all of my 3 protections that go...I also have my mez pro dropped and stunned in the same hit very often.
But if blasters are complaining about having trouble killing scrappers and tankers now well welcome to the world that everyone else has been living in.
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Nice, they've stripped the sole reason a scrapper might have been causious to attack a blaster, as the blaster might drop his toggles and burst dmg his buttocks to the hospital... to the point where the scrapper knows "hey cool a blaster, with a total of roughly 30% to drop one toggle every 8 seconds... while I usually only need about 6 to drop him..I like those odds"
/e Rant off
But seriously, one of the most common AT's atm in PvPland are scrappers & stalkers. Couple of controllers and corruptors, and a daring blaster or Brute here and there. Now with these changes, I fear the Masterminds, Dominators, Defenders and the rest of the AT's will be a tourist attraction whenever you see one in PvP land.
Careful guys, a scrapper.... we need at least 3 to take him down now (debuff-nerf ring a bell?)
Naaah... PvP has become City of Scrappers
Whooptidoo
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Sorry bud, your wrong. 90% of the scrappers you see in pvp are Regen scrappers. Toggle dropping dont mean jack to them. All they have to do is keep Intergration up, big whoop.
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OK first regen scrappers having to keep up integration in any zone pre-IH is a BIG deal. That and whatever travel power they have could be there only two toggles and having that taken results in any status attack taking full affect.
Also OMG PVP is city of scrappers?! I see as many blasters and controllers in a PVP zone as i ever do scrappers. I would guess that in SC on any given night durring peak PVP hours, for every 2 scrappers tehre are 3 blasters.
Also speaking from a brutes standpoint (and as of now you wont be fighting scrappers any place but the arena and Warburg) It is far from fair to have a /eng blaster hop up and take down 2 of my toggles per Bonesmasher.
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Yeah, given that Regen has one toggle in the base powers, they're the easiest of all to detoggle.
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Yes, exactly.
If they're on the ball, you'll still have a hard time - they can hit instant healing and survive your beating long enough to get integration up and run away, but if they're not...they're dead.
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shouldn't blasters feel the same way about rooting affects
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The Rooted in all powers (except snipes) should be removed.
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Concern would be among the first to tell you that unrooting blaster attacks would be too powerful...and then he'd complain that unrooting was removed from WW.
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Damn straight. It ruined my MM. I have to wait for Bodyguard before I venture out into PvP again.
I do think that with rooting + suppression that without some mechanic for getting around melee defenses the defenses melee has in PvP are too high in conjunction with their offense in relation to squishy people.
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Well, travel power suppression is teh dumb. Sadly, it's unlikely to go away.
In Guild Wars, I was amused to find that there's an actual tutorial mission to show you how to handle kiting. In City of Heroes, the mechanics are changed to make kiting difficult.
I don't think it's necessary to get around melee defenses to balance PVP. I'd rather the devs find a solution that works without trivializing anyone.
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