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Where we have a problem is when I'm forced to play as if that shield doesn't exist because it is routinely being being affected by toggle drops.
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Lets go back to another arguement that was ignored previously. If a melee AT is saying that the chance that a toggle dets dropped is too much for melee to accept then shouldn't blasters feel the same way about rooting affects and suppression?
I mean, blasters use range as a form of damage mitigation and it is "routinely" negated by rooting and suppression. Never mind melee travel powers negating our range. I mean, they can move fast and hit us. How is that fair? They negated our range advantage and the melee AT was designed for defense and attacking other things on the front line. NOT negating a blasters range advantage.
Now, to continue the same veign as Kali is proposing. Of course that doesn't mean that melee ATs can't use range on blasters. By all means, they can get together and actually use range to a better advantage than a blaster can but they should have to team to do that. I have no problem with an AT that was designed to negate the AT range advantage having the ability to do that but having stupid mechanical kludges contantly negating the advantage of range is not right or fun.
Same arguement, also completely outside any semblance of game balance. If this sounds crazy to you, then you might understand why melee saying that it is too much that a blaster have a chance of mezzing a melee AT by himself sounds crazy to me.
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I forgot Hotfeet with /Fire blasters. I AM SO SORRY. (hey it does slow)
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And most melee characters are susceptible to slows.
I know SR and Ice resist slows. Does anyone else?
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Anyone with SS + Swift. Pretty much why I went with that on my melee Brute character instead of SJ.
if you're arguing against suppression in that post, then no it doesn't sound crazy. and if you're arguing against rooted animations, it doesn't sound entirely crazy, only a little because there's no real good proposal for that I've ever seen.
and i still fail to see why asking for mez toggles to protect against a single foe with only a few mez powers is crazy.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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if you're arguing against suppression in that post, then no it doesn't sound crazy. and if you're arguing against rooted animations, it doesn't sound entirely crazy, only a little because there's no real good proposal for that I've ever seen.
and i still fail to see why asking for mez toggles to protect against a single foe with only a few mez powers is crazy.
[/ QUOTE ]
It goes back to playing the same game that everyone else is playing. My blaster has to deal with rooting and suppression basicaly making range a joke and definately something that is lost on a regular basis when in combat. Tie that in with a Blaster being able to have a chance to get past a tankers mez protection.
Without relying on Bitter Freeze Ray + Freeze Ray + Char + Shocking Grasp. That would be Mag 12, shhhhhhh some people don't know about this still. 
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if you're arguing against suppression in that post, then no it doesn't sound crazy. and if you're arguing against rooted animations, it doesn't sound entirely crazy, only a little because there's no real good proposal for that I've ever seen.
and i still fail to see why asking for mez toggles to protect against a single foe with only a few mez powers is crazy.
[/ QUOTE ]
It goes back to playing the same game that everyone else is playing. My blaster has to deal with rooting and suppression basicaly making range a joke and definately something that is lost on a regular basis when in combat. Tie that in with a Blaster being able to have a chance to get past a tankers mez protection.
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So which power does a blaster take and spend slots on to guarantee that nothing ever gets into melee range?
Yeah, I thought so.
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So which power does a blaster take and spend slots on to guarantee that nothing ever gets into melee range?
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Power Thrust, Web Grenade, Caltrops, Chillbain, Ring of Fire, Electric Fence, Ice Patch, Shiver. Of course, only Web Grenade and the two /ice powers are really that useful, thanks to the kludges in place to prevent them from being consistantly applied.
Correct me if I got the name of one wrong, Blaster powersets aren't my strong point.
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Power Thrust, Web Grenade, Caltrops, Chillbain, Ring of Fire, Electric Fence, Ice Patch,
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All of which ties back to mez protection. It is kinda interesting in a way how well toggle droppers balanced the playing field.
I can't quite agree with that, Concern. The biggest balance issue with the i4-i6 toggle drop values were the ease in which mezzes could be applied to Tankers. To a certain degree, this was necessary - I'd rather not have Blasters of the world unite against Hibernate combined with no chance of mezzing, for example - but it also lead to the only actually overpowered Blaster builds.
I like the idea. Having to regularly go into danger to be able to secure your defenses fits the Blaster archetype. But I wouldn't go so far as to say it worked well.
It just didn't work as badly as a few hundred other possible schemes would have.
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So which power does a blaster take and spend slots on to guarantee that nothing ever gets into melee range?
[/ QUOTE ]
Power Thrust, Web Grenade, Caltrops, Chillbain, Ring of Fire, Electric Fence, Ice Patch, Shiver. Of course, only Web Grenade and the two /ice powers are really that useful, thanks to the kludges in place to prevent them from being consistantly applied.
Correct me if I got the name of one wrong, Blaster powersets aren't my strong point.
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Melee defenses come with a power that protects from immobilizations and knockdowns. How do you propose using those effects without nerfing melee mez protection yet again?
Also, strangely, I never found those powers to be very good guarantees at keeping stuff at arm's length. They help, but a guarantee?
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Without relying on Bitter Freeze Ray + Freeze Ray + Char + Shocking Grasp. That would be Mag 12, shhhhhhh some people don't know about this still.
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Apologies in advance for the hijack, but I'm curious.
Do you know if it's possible to cycle enough mezzes with an Electric/Electric/Electric Blaster (Tesla Cage, Shocking Grasp, Shocking Bolt) to overcome a Brute/Tank/Scrapper's mezz protection?
I've never slotted them for it or ever really tried. Is this within the realm of possibility though?
/end hijack 
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Melee defenses come with a power that protects from immobilizations and knockdowns. How do you propose using those effects without nerfing melee mez protection yet again?
[/ QUOTE ]
If we're just going to pull ideas out of a hat, though, a good place to start would be to avoid the existing mez/debuff mechanics. I believe I posted the "Stagger" concept earlier in this thread. I'd be willing to wager PvE Blasters would trade Defiane for it pretty quickly, and PvP ones would be happythat it applied more universally than the existing setup.
<edit for example :
Blaster melee attacks gain a significant but uncertain chance "stagger" the opponent, causing a status effect like Disorient, but without detoggling or prevention of attack powers. During stagger, a target gets 100% -hold, -immob, -fear, and -disorient debuff, and <pipedream>powers like Phase Shift/Hibernate/PFF/Granite Armor can not be activated</pipedream>. Regeneration and heal powers may have to get a penalty during stagger. Individual staggers are subject to mez suppression, and can only last a short duration, probably two or three times the animation time of the power that starts them (outside of powers such as Ice Slick, knockback powers, which had their primary effect specifically neutered for PvP. They may be better off with a -knockback protection aspect, or just a longer stagger effect). >
No, it's still not a great mechanic. I don't expect to find a great mechanic in PvP. I just want to find the least bad one, and this certainly seems more effective than base PVE ruleset, without having the same irritation or border cases that TDs had.
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Also, strangely, I never found those powers to be very good guarantees at keeping stuff at arm's length. They help, but a guarantee?
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Given that you can immobilize Archvillians without slotting, and with slotting, can pretty much keep Elite Bosses at perma-immobed with it, I'd say those work decently. Same for Shiver, although that's a bit more work-intensive.
The only time it's not assured is for Energy Melee's knockback, but that's largely due to the way power queing works.
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The biggest balance issue with the i4-i6 toggle drop values were the ease in which mezzes could be applied to Tankers.
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Actually, the biggest balance problem with toggle dropping to me was the fact that at the I6 percentage rates, many toggle droppers could drop toggles faster than anything with toggles could put them back up (given the activation times and recharge rates of toggles) which means in a practical sense, a toggle dropper could force anything with active toggles to fight without them irrespective of what they did.
If tanker defense toggles had quarter-second activation times, and zero recharge, high-speed high-probability toggle dropping powers *might* make sense. But if a blapper could drop in 1.5 seconds what the tanker took six to put back up, in effect the toggles don't exist as a defensive option at all.
That greatly oversimplifies the issue, but its the heart of my problem with toggle dropping implementation (i.e. assuming it was going to exist at all).
If toggle dropping is infrequent, then when it happens it either gives the dropper a short offensive advantage while the toggle(s) are brought back up (because you can't attack during that time) or a longer defensive advantage if the target chooses to forego bringing the toggle(s) back up and continues to fight. Whether that situation is "balanced" has a lot to do with how frequent that event occurs, relative to the advantage it conveys. It was too often in I6, because the "event" could be almost continuously chained together. Whether its balanced now has a lot to do with figuring out if the net advantage of the new toggle drop capability matches its new frequence of occurance.
The fact that detoggling created a vulnerability to mez was a relative side issue to me. If none of the detogglers had any mez at all, I think the I6 percentages would have still been too high, for the same reason listed above: it created an equilibrum state of basically being totally detoggled (in at least many cases).
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Would making the toggle drop for some powers one hundred percent and others at seventy-five be too much?
I beleive that the current live numbers for toggle drops were kind of decenet except for one aspect. They only should have dropped a single toggle. If anything, it should have been a luck of the "drop" to get the toggle you were after. Instead however, things had a chance to drop two or three toggles at one time. Tat speaks to be alittle over kill in my mind.
Take a blaster's melee strike, Total Focus. IF it dropped one toggle and only one, place it against a tanker or brute. You see the hit go off but depending on how many toggles are being run, you would have a one and *number of toggles* chance of hitting that sweet spot and mez the tanker/brute.
Being Total Focus is a high damage power, It shouldn't have a garenteed drop but it should be high.
It would be a game of odds, the numbers I see now, the non-heavy hitter Powersets are gonna catch more "L" with no compensation for it.
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shouldn't blasters feel the same way about rooting affects
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The Rooted in all powers (except snipes) should be removed.
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The biggest balance issue with the i4-i6 toggle drop values were the ease in which mezzes could be applied to Tankers.
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Actually, the biggest balance problem with toggle dropping to me was the fact that at the I6 percentage rates, many toggle droppers could drop toggles faster than anything with toggles could put them back up (given the activation times and recharge rates of toggles) which means in a practical sense, a toggle dropper could force anything with active toggles to fight without them irrespective of what they did.
If tanker defense toggles had quarter-second activation times, and zero recharge, high-speed high-probability toggle dropping powers *might* make sense. But if a blapper could drop in 1.5 seconds what the tanker took six to put back up, in effect the toggles don't exist as a defensive option at all.
That greatly oversimplifies the issue, but its the heart of my problem with toggle dropping implementation (i.e. assuming it was going to exist at all).
If toggle dropping is infrequent, then when it happens it either gives the dropper a short offensive advantage while the toggle(s) are brought back up (because you can't attack during that time) or a longer defensive advantage if the target chooses to forego bringing the toggle(s) back up and continues to fight. Whether that situation is "balanced" has a lot to do with how frequent that event occurs, relative to the advantage it conveys. It was too often in I6, because the "event" could be almost continuously chained together. Whether its balanced now has a lot to do with figuring out if the net advantage of the new toggle drop capability matches its new frequence of occurance.
The fact that detoggling created a vulnerability to mez was a relative side issue to me. If none of the detogglers had any mez at all, I think the I6 percentages would have still been too high, for the same reason listed above: it created an equilibrum state of basically being totally detoggled (in at least many cases).
[/ QUOTE ]
The mez was a side issue that got dragged to the front because someone was offended at the idea that they'd need help to attack a character where that character is strong.
I've also pointed out that the toggles drop too fast to be useful, but a few vocal posters tend to dismiss that for whatever reason.
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Would making the toggle drop for some powers one hundred percent and others at seventy-five be too much?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. There shouldn't be a guaranteed chance of a toggle-drop anywhere in PVP.
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Take a blaster's melee strike, Total Focus. IF it dropped one toggle and only one, place it against a tanker or brute. You see the hit go off but depending on how many toggles are being run, you would have a one and *number of toggles* chance of hitting that sweet spot and mez the tanker/brute.
Being Total Focus is a high damage power, It shouldn't have a garenteed drop but it should be high.
[/ QUOTE ]
Blaster total focus doesn't drop toggles. Dominator total focus does.
I'd rather the devs just abandon the idea of toggle-dropping and look elsewhere for PVP balance. I'm increasingly dissatisfied with this partial measure.
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shouldn't blasters feel the same way about rooting affects
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The Rooted in all powers (except snipes) should be removed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Concern would be among the first to tell you that unrooting blaster attacks would be too powerful...and then he'd complain that unrooting was removed from WW.
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shouldn't blasters feel the same way about rooting affects
[/ QUOTE ]
The Rooted in all powers (except snipes) should be removed.
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Concern would be among the first to tell you that unrooting blaster attacks would be too powerful...and then he'd complain that unrooting was removed from WW.
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Damn straight. It ruined my MM. I have to wait for Bodyguard before I venture out into PvP again.
I do think that with rooting + suppression that without some mechanic for getting around melee defenses the defenses melee has in PvP are too high in conjunction with their offense in relation to squishy people.
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Would making the toggle drop for some powers one hundred percent and others at seventy-five be too much?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. There shouldn't be a guaranteed chance of a toggle-drop anywhere in PVP.
[/ QUOTE ]
In general, I would tend to agree, but I leave the door open to an exception: when the cost of the toggle drop exceeds the actual benefit of the toggle drop. I would not think it was necessarily absurd if nova, say, or the electric armor kaboom, had a high order chance to drop a toggle or two. Its rapid firing zero-cost detogglers - ironically, like brawl - that I think break the cost/benefit equation on toggle dropping.
Certain things should be scary even to melee, and toggle dropping adds a fear element to things like nova, which despite their high order damage usually put the blaster at a worse situation than their targets, if their targets are melee (of course, it kills squishies outright, but then again, since it does, I don't think they care much about being detoggled also). I think there are certain things even melee should ordinarily run from, and something like nova might qualify, unless they themselves are protected by *their* ultimate defense powers (since unstoppable can't be detoggled, the result of a blaster nova-blasting an unstoppable tank should be the tank braces for impact, then punches the blaster in the head - and that seems reasonable to me).
Keep in mind that there are pretty certain toggle droppers even in PvE - the high order END drain powers. END drain was significantly weakened in PvP (another really popular decision by the devs) for balance purposes to prevent everyone from running around with no END and no toggles, so in a sense toggles did get a change in PvP designed to protect them from being completely taken out of the equation under certain circumstances. Its things like that that make me understand that the situation with the *addition* of the toggle-dropping mechanism - which I'm on record as saying I don't tend to like - is not quite so cut and dried. Eliminate toggle-dropping powers altogether, and put END drain back on the table at full strength, and I think the situation becomes *worse* for melee toggle-runners in general. So in one sense at least, the devs did make some effort to protect toggles: toggle dropping is the one step back after the END-drain two steps forward.
I say this mainly to say I don't think I have very many "absolutes" in terms of how toggle-dropping should work conceptually, because its in my mind intertwined with a lot of other issues with equally tricky balance questions.
I will say that a 100% toggle dropper had better have some serious sort of downside, or alternatively only given to a power set that barely has more damage than brawl, or its unlikely to be fair. One possibility currently dancing around in my head: unhidden assassin's strikes. The cost-benefit of using AS while *not* hidden and therefore without the AS critical (or for that matter without any stealth) might make unhidden AS a balanced tactical option for a stalker engaged with a melee target.
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[ QUOTE ]
It goes back to playing the same game that everyone else is playing. My blaster has to deal with rooting and suppression basicaly making range a joke and definately something that is lost on a regular basis when in combat. Tie that in with a Blaster being able to have a chance to get past a tankers mez protection.
Without relying on Bitter Freeze Ray + Freeze Ray + Char + Shocking Grasp. That would be Mag 12, shhhhhhh some people don't know about this still.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, I read this as "my AT and/or powers are flawed, so lets impose a flaw on everyone else's AT to make the playing field level".
I'm not sure you should be surprised at a lack of support for that perspective.
No, if you're looking for support for fixing your powers so they don't screw you as badly? (Which would, incedentally be at least a minor buff to everyone in the game.) I'm all for that.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I will say that a 100% toggle dropper had better have some serious sort of downside, or alternatively only given to a power set that barely has more damage than brawl, or its unlikely to be fair.
[/ QUOTE ]
Something along the lines of Storm's Thunderclap? Or Kin's Repel?
I hate to even open the door to something along these lines - but Defenders definitely need SOMETHING. Maybe a very high % toggle drop in each of their Primarys might not be out of the question??!??!?!?!?! Maybe. Pick a horrible current power and give it some love. Black Hole for Dark for instance.
The only problem with this is if you did it EVERYONE would start their justifaction threads why "X" AT needs a similar power.
That and you have to choose the power carefully. IMO you don't want to turn Defenders in to "detoggle spammers". The benefits of detoggling a melee foe can be extremely large, and probably overshadow entire defender powersets main purpose if made reliable.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
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I have a suggestion, but I don't know how much this would take to apply
While the toggle drop values seem a little low right now(i think def, corr and 1st power of a dom should have a little better chance) (i also think the dom 2nd power should be a bit lower like 33% maybe)I think there would be a perfect way to still actually have people think it's worth it to get in there for toggle drops even though the danger has increased significantly for squishies
I think there should be a 2 minute recharge debuff on any power that has been toggle dropped, otherwise toggle drops dont mean much to tanks and such as they can throw it back on in 2 seconds, this way any tank that has a toggle dropped would be in a bit of danger and actually get scared
lemme know wut u think of this
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Ummmmmmmm.......No.
If I could hit a Blaster with a power that made them unable to use their offense for 2 minutes, would you think that'd be fair?
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You can its called a hold. (breakfrees do run out)
Theres also disorients.
There's also Build up Assassin Strike Placate then critical. (a trip to the hospital does stop a blaster from using powers fora while....at minimum 30sec. at Max, until they can find you again.)
But I do think the original suggestion is a bad idea. I just had to point out the FLAWED reasoning from the other poster.
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I will say that a 100% toggle dropper had better have some serious sort of downside, or alternatively only given to a power set that barely has more damage than brawl, or its unlikely to be fair.
[/ QUOTE ]
Something along the lines of Storm's Thunderclap? Or Kin's Repel?
[/ QUOTE ]
Both of them have properties that in my opinion would disqualify them for high-frequency toggle dropping:
1. They are both AoEs
2. They both can be used too often (or constantly)
[ QUOTE ]
I hate to even open the door to something along these lines - but Defenders definitely need SOMETHING. Maybe a very high % toggle drop in each of their Primarys might not be out of the question??!??!?!?!?! Maybe. Pick a horrible current power and give it some love. Black Hole for Dark for instance.
[/ QUOTE ]
Defender debuffs are unresistable. Additional improvements to defenders for PvP should probably follow and synergize with that. Defender debuffs could be made to last twice as long in PvP, lets say, or be stackable (in cases where they ordinarily wouldn't stack) against PvP targets.
In fact, that's how I think they should have fixed END drain for defenders: when they took away -END because it was too easy to drain to zero, they could have given defenders a longer lasting -recovery to compensate, so the targets aren't zapped to zero, but feel the effects of it nevertheless (it curtails offense, at least).
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The only problem with this is if you did it EVERYONE would start their justifaction threads why "X" AT needs a similar power.
[/ QUOTE ]
I assume this will happen every time I make a suggestion. I've never been let down before. I try not to let it bug me too much.
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[ QUOTE ]
Bear in mind that supression (a fruity mechanic in it's own right, though I really know of nothing better for it), starts when the hold starts. This means that, if you can keep someone held for around that time (or more) with a single hold application, you can, in fact, hold them forever. Assuming the hold recharges in time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, now...that means it was a complete non-issue in that fight, and the one time I broke out was probably due to the dominator missing.
Thankfully, a passing empath took pity and clear-minded me. For some reason, the Dominator ran away after that...
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