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Heh. Why do you think toggle dropping was added in the first place? Because the 30% unresistable damage wasn't nearly cutting it. How many attack cycles do you think a blaster is supposed to wait through vs. an EM tank or brute at the extreme of the scale?
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I guess I was under the false impression that it was because I had 90% resists across the board while my toggles were operational. And did I mention the defense? Having that type of armor available was a pretty decent reason to pass out toggle dropping ability to everyone in bucketloads.
But it is gone now.
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According to the quote that Kali made, you would be wrong. It was apparently not reduced because of GDN. So apparently the Global Defense Nerf was taken into consideration. It was apparently done as a result of ED. Which then brings into question the severity of the nerfs because in the grand scheme of PvP ED helped melee more than it helped blasters. Since melee didn't lose any of the HP that they had it means that team buffs helped them more.
So no, it wasn't because you had 90% resists.
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Well thank goodness that Kali isn't the 100% correct bottom line Oracle of absolute fact. 
As for how to differentiate which might be the reason - how on Earth do you plan to do it? They both came so close together without any proper testing on the hero side can anyone (other than a red name) properly identify which was the cause? I wouldn't expect it to be possible.
And as for whom ED "helped" - are you kidding? It didn't "help" anyone save for the few people running around with their straight jackets on saying they always wanted to slot their characters that way. And having one of each AT I can flatly state that it hindered my melee more - (Tank moreso than the Scrapper even) because I lost a lot of defense AND damage. And my defense side was double whammied because there isn't anything else I can slot several of my powers with. No other AT (iirc) can make that claim. Sure Blasters were hit hard also being very damage oriented - but my Defender and Controller actually weren't really bothered by it very much comparatively.
Just mho.
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Heh. Why do you think toggle dropping was added in the first place? Because the 30% unresistable damage wasn't nearly cutting it. How many attack cycles do you think a blaster is supposed to wait through vs. an EM tank or brute at the extreme of the scale?
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I guess I was under the false impression that it was because I had 90% resists across the board while my toggles were operational. And did I mention the defense? Having that type of armor available was a pretty decent reason to pass out toggle dropping ability to everyone in bucketloads.
But it is gone now.
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According to the quote that Kali made, you would be wrong. It was apparently not reduced because of GDN. So apparently the Global Defense Nerf was taken into consideration. It was apparently done as a result of ED. Which then brings into question the severity of the nerfs because in the grand scheme of PvP ED helped melee more than it helped blasters. Since melee didn't lose any of the HP that they had it means that team buffs helped them more.
So no, it wasn't because you had 90% resists.
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Well thank goodness that Kali isn't the 100% correct bottom line Oracle of absolute fact.
As for how to differentiate which might be the reason - how on Earth do you plan to do it? They both came so close together without any proper testing on the hero side can anyone (other than a red name) properly identify which was the cause? I wouldn't expect it to be possible.
And as for whom ED "helped" - are you kidding? It didn't "help" anyone save for the few people running around with their straight jackets on saying they always wanted to slot their characters that way. And having one of each AT I can flatly state that it hindered my melee more - (Tank moreso than the Scrapper even) because I lost a lot of defense AND damage. And my defense side was double whammied because there isn't anything else I can slot several of my powers with. No other AT (iirc) can make that claim. Sure Blasters were hit hard also being very damage oriented - but my Defender and Controller actually weren't really bothered by it very much comparatively.
Just mho.
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I meant the quote Kali made of the Dev response to the change in Toggle droppers. Not any statement that she made herself.
Just what I said, I didn't say "to quote Kali". 
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I eat break frees all the time on my scrapper and tanker. This is because there are holes in their status protection - fear and confuse for my tanker, and confuse for my scrapper. However, I have a perfectly good power that should make break frees unnecessary for most uses of holds, stuns, and sleeps. Do you think that it's unreasonable to want a power that protects you from these effects to actually protect you from these effects? If you want to break my status shield, grab a goddamned controller.
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"You should need a team to beat me solo."
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That's not what I said.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
With all the circular arguments being made in this thread, I'm beginning to think that this recent change is a great balance move. Neither side has been able to show how the other is better off in a team environment.
Add in my own recent experiences on Test and I'm damn near completely convinced.
This is coming from someone that PvPs primarily with Tanks and Blasters.
I must admit that I have to skip a lot of what Kali writes. 
She gets too damned long winded and with every other post being hers I have to give equal opportunity reading time.
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Heh. Why do you think toggle dropping was added in the first place? Because the 30% unresistable damage wasn't nearly cutting it. How many attack cycles do you think a blaster is supposed to wait through vs. an EM tank or brute at the extreme of the scale?
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Just to be clear, 30% unresistable damage and toggle-dropping were added at the same time...when tankers and scrappers could easily cap or approach the cap on their defenses or resists. Strangely, this isn't the case anymore. This is the third issue since then and melee defenses have taken two hits.
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If in the past you only ever fought toggle drop users and they always got your status toggle down in their alpha, sure. I think we all know that's a lot more uncommon than it is a given though, certainly in PVP zones on Infinity and Protector, the servers I play on.
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The status toggle isn't the entirety of the argument, of course. It is one facet - and a valid one at that. It's unreasonable that
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With all the circular arguments being made in this thread, I'm beginning to think that this recent change is a great balance move. Neither side has been able to show how the other is better off in a team environment.
Add in my own recent experiences on Test and I'm damn near completely convinced.
This is coming from someone that PvPs primarily with Tanks and Blasters.
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Pfft, it doesn't matter what you say. You have a stalker! Therefore everything you say is suspect. You and your stalker conscpiracy, I'm on to you Meat man, oh yes, I'm on to you.
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I'm not saying they're useless - just not required. Blasters and scrappers get the most benefit from enrages.
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So... those archetypes with a lot of existing damage benefit the most from Enrages.
But, because you have mez protection, you should only need Break Frees when a very unusual Controller or Dominator pops up. That doesn't even make sense.
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I, er, didn't say that. I said I constantly use break frees to get out of those status effects, which hit amazingly often for being "very unusual." I've also said repeatedly that I'm fine with controllers and dominators being able to break through mez protection, and break frees are good for that, too. What I am not fine with is the idea that I should carry break-frees because the damage AT can arbitrarily knock off my mez protection toggle and land a stun.
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Bolded for emphasis. Using an unreliable source for insight into the minds of people who... well, decided to buff Stalkers in i7... doesn't work wonders for an arguement.
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You can cherry pick as many patch notes you don't like as you want. The vast majority are still accurate.
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Just wondering, though - why is it when the "these ATs perform badly solo" quote is brought up, the part where Castle says "teamed is a different story" gets brushed over?
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Largely? We don't have that information. Also because I don't see the value of "Three Blasters against one BF-less Tanker" as being that valid of a result.
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And of course you define the terms of what "on teams" means, and take it to mean that the solo results are the entirety of those results.
Perhaps it's inconvenient to consider the possibility that those ATs are doing much better on teams.
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With all the circular arguments being made in this thread, I'm beginning to think that this recent change is a great balance move. Neither side has been able to show how the other is better off in a team environment.
Add in my own recent experiences on Test and I'm damn near completely convinced.
This is coming from someone that PvPs primarily with Tanks and Blasters.
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Pfft, it doesn't matter what you say. You have a stalker! Therefore everything you say is suspect. You and your stalker conscpiracy, I'm on to you Meat man, oh yes, I'm on to you.
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Foiled again!
Funny thing is: I'm a horrible Stalker lol
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So no, it wasn't because you had 90% resists.
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Since even without the GDR, Ed would've removed the ability to have 90% resists, so even your nitpicky argument is wrong.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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With all the circular arguments being made in this thread, I'm beginning to think that this recent change is a great balance move. Neither side has been able to show how the other is better off in a team environment.
Add in my own recent experiences on Test and I'm damn near completely convinced.
This is coming from someone that PvPs primarily with Tanks and Blasters.
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Pfft, it doesn't matter what you say. You have a stalker! Therefore everything you say is suspect. You and your stalker conscpiracy, I'm on to you Meat man, oh yes, I'm on to you.
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Agreed!
The best thing to come out of this change was the effect on Stalker AS. I honestly wish they wouldn't have touched any Defender TDs. Goodness knows they didn't need any nerfage.
Also, I think he wants to make me into a Pork Sandwich. 
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So no, it wasn't because you had 90% resists.
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Since even without the GDR, Ed would've removed the ability to have 90% resists, so even your nitpicky argument is wrong.
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Uhm, think about it for a second, that makes my arguement stronger.
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So no, it wasn't because you had 90% resists.
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Since even without the GDR, Ed would've removed the ability to have 90% resists, so even your nitpicky argument is wrong.
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Uhm, think about it for a second, that makes my arguement stronger.
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In the Bizarro world, perhaps. Toggle-dropping was instituted in issue 4, when people generally admitted that tanker and scrapper defenses were too high to be easily overcome in PVP (well, some tanker and scrapper defenses - not all sets are made equal). If the defenses were reduced (and they were), and the devs say "This was changed because defenses aren't as strong as they used to be" (which they did), I'm not sure how it supports your argument at all.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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So no, it wasn't because you had 90% resists.
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Since even without the GDR, Ed would've removed the ability to have 90% resists, so even your nitpicky argument is wrong.
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Uhm, think about it for a second, that makes my arguement stronger.
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In the Bizarro world, perhaps. Toggle-dropping was instituted in issue 4, when people generally admitted that tanker and scrapper defenses were too high to be easily overcome in PVP (well, some tanker and scrapper defenses - not all sets are made equal). If the defenses were reduced (and they were), and the devs say "This was changed because defenses aren't as strong as they used to be" (which they did), I'm not sure how it supports your argument at all.
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ED was something they were considering to put in the game.
The GDN was what they were testing with in I4. Yes, on live we were playing one thing while the developers were testing another. They instituted toggle drops while they were in fact useing GDN numbers for everything. Per their own posts. Every change they tested was done with GDN in place. Which means toggle drops too.
My arguement was that toggle drops were not balanced around the 90% resists that SOME tankers had. Since not all tankers obviously had them. There were tankers that didn't have resistance except to Ice and Fire for instance. Side arguement that also discredits the notion that the developers balanced toggle drops around 90% resists.
Then you come along and say that even without the GDR a Tanker could not reach 90% resists. Okay, so what? They were balanced with GDR being tested at the time. So what the developers said is absolutely true, they were nerfed because of ED which was introduced AFTER GDR and after toggle drops.
They didn't say they were nerfed because ED AND GDR made it unbalanced. ED may or may not have gone live, it was still up in limbo. If ED alone would have been balanced with Toggle droppers as they are now, the developers would have come out and said, "Toggle droppers were reduced due to the reduction in defenses by the Global Defense Reduction". They didn't say that either.
You are having a hard time believing that even after you got nerfed, that you weren't balanced in team PvP without toggle drops.
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"You should need a team to beat me solo."
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It's not just for regen scrappers any more! 
Oops, fanning flames. Carry on.
personally i feel toggle drops should have been nerfed on powers which also do massive damage like AS bonesmasher and TF, but powers like force bolt? c'mon, force bolt ONLY purpose in pvp for me was to drop toggles, it's no damage and KB is so easily resisted by toggles that without toggle dropping force bolt has become entirely useless. Dominator secondaries also, they don't do a hell of alot of damage so i feel they should have a decent chance of dropping a toggle. just my personal opinion, but i feel like devs should have looked at toggle dropping as a power by power thing, not a universal nerf.
Repel
Do ya'll know what I want from my bubbler?
Some combination of unresistable KB from her three KB powers and / or a way to buff offense and / or increased numbers for toggle drops. Damn it, if you're standing in repulsion field and then get hit with repulsion bomb and force bolt, I don't care who you are, I expect to see you launched half-way across Siren's Call.
In exchange, I'd accept a recharge nerf to detention field, which, apparently, is being talked up into FoTM territory because of how annoying, bordering on griefing, it is.
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Zub's awesome.
That's not irony or sarcasm, just plain damned fact.
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
I've been trying to piss you off for MONTHS!! You mean it's NOT WORKING??!!??
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
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Funny thing is: I'm a horrible Stalker lol
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It's your mouth-watering, meaty aroma. We can always tell when you're close by.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
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Repel
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Yep, fear my kinetics defender. He still has his 5% chance to knock off toggles that he always had. Yeah, BURN!
EDIT: For those wondering, repel takes forever to drop toggles. By forever, I mean that if you have defense it can take sometimes 15-30 seconds to hit.
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Zub's awesome.
That's not irony or sarcasm, just plain damned fact.
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
I've been trying to piss you off for MONTHS!! You mean it's NOT WORKING??!!??
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I haven't even been paying attention to you for the past few months. I must've missed it.
Well, not just you specifically, but the CoH forum generally.
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30% unresistable damage wasn't cutting it when resists where 2 to 3 times higher than they are now.
When toggle droping was first introduced, Tanks could hit Energy and Elemental resists in the 60-88% range. Now its more like 25-30%*. Scrappers are even lower.
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But the great majority of melee-range damage is smashing, particularly for /Electric and /Energy, and nobody had their defenses cut that much in that department. Once again, and to be more specific, why do you think toggle drops were added to the melee-range hits? 
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more like "you should need someone with dedicated mez abilities to bypass my mez protection, solo"
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So while we're adhering to a rigid tank/healer/damage/crowdcontrol model, shouldn't it be expected that a tank or brute shouldn't actually be able to get any kills themselves, but get a damagedealer. I considered putting a question mark after that sentence, but frankly I don't care about your answer.
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-res against a set with resistance is resisted. It doesn't result in a straight subtraction from their resistance. In other words, a set with 30% lethal resistance is not negated by Enervating Field.
-dmg is negated by an enhancement, one. I would consider that not working.
-def seems to be resisted currently by classes with self defense buffs. It isn't supposed to be but it seems to be. -acc works thankfully. Still, 3 out of 4 is a pain in the rear and two are not going to be changeing.
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-RES debuffs are resisted unless they come from defenders: those are supposed to be unresistable.
-DEF debuffs are supposed to be resisted by certain powers, like the defenses in Ice tanks and SR scrappers.
However, speaking as someone who's measured defense numbers to precisions better than a tenth of a percentage point, I have yet to be able to prove that the defense debuff resistance even exists at all.
-DMG is, however, just plain broken in terms of the way it was designed to work.
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