Front_Loaded

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FWIW I don't believe you can comment on whether an AT is gimped or not until you've played one or played a lot with one up to about 46 or 47 and got well into the 45-50 content.

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another flavor of "STUF NOOB".

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Each power listed as doing end drain will always drain the amount listed, it is independent of the endurance return. The endurance returned is enhanced by end mod enhancements,

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a small correction/clarification: both aspects are improved by EndMod enhancements.

Well, it's the getting hit that gets you fury, not exactly Lightning Field/Blazing Aura in and of themselves. If you have aggro through other means then you get fury that way.

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Most of your points are irrelevant as well! ANYONE can take aid self, GASP! including brutes!

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That's great - two forms of selfhealing still appears to me to be better than one. What's your point?

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Invinc wont do crap unless you've got more then 3 mobs on you, which if you're soloing on an average difficulty you wont have without herding AND you'll still get hit will all the ranged attacks trying to gather your herd.

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Uh, for soloing vs. 3 mobs on average difficulty - any of the brute sets is more than fine. Thinking /Electric needs nerfing because of some bizarre perception of Invulns not being able to solo 3 average mobs is pretty dumb. All the brute sets solo easily. Are you trying to say you're having to use Unstoppable when soloing vs. 3 mobs or something?? Who gives a crap which set can solo on villainous/heroic better than the other? Nobody's talking about that?

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Dull pain is nice but won't stop some psi mob from brutalizing an inv tank, it just gives them a few seconds more to stand there as they get brutalized by ZERO def/res to it.

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Okay, and /Electric has ZERO def/res vs. toxic, but still doesn't have +60% max hitpoints. What's your issue?

It was more directed at people in the thread who seem to think Invuln is pure resist, and it certainly isn't - I shouldn't have picked your post to reply to, sorry.

NO INVINCIBILITY! It's shameful you guys are writing off the best power in the Invuln set, and a significantly higher smash/lethal resist. There's a reason Invuln is the most popular defense set in tankers and brutes.

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just to be a pain, the DP buff is only half enhanceable. slotted up with 3heals, the buff is 60%

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Thanks for the correction, I should have known that.

For someone with multiple 50s on your sig, you probably should look at how the sets you use work a little more closely. Dull Pain/Earth's Embrace, when slotted for heal, now buff your health to a larger % - with 3x heal, the HP buff is +80%. The amount healed is increased by slotting as well, and has been for as long as I'm aware of.

You totally ignored Invincibilty in the Invuln set, which is about the best power in it. Even strictly within brute sets, the +80% health boost and commensurate increased HP regen coupled with the +Def in Invincibility versus a large number of targets make Invuln very obviously better in the majority of "tanking" situations. You have a 50 Invuln scrapper in your sig, you ought to know these things.

Not to say that Electric is a bad set, I think it's pretty interesting as is, but NO WAY will it replace Invuln for general purpose "tanking". Nor Stone. Frankly before Granite, Stone is pretty bad compared to about everything else, especially the Brute version.

Yes I agree - what I said was that I think Castle mis-stated, and probably meant that knockback/immob is going on the EXISTING TOGGLE, not that I think they will make grounded into a toggle.

big difference: shadow maul has a BI of 6. Not 3.7.

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Shadow dweller. Passive skill in DA stalker version. Immob protection, defense, and perception.

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I meant specifically the knockdown protection, that's really pretty valuable (more than immob). Can't believe that's going on a passive, although it'd be neat.

You have got to be kidding. Invuln tank set is far superior versus everything but Psi and Energy damage - Invincibilty and Dull Pain alone. The added HP (+80%) from Dull Pain and the +Def from Invincibility add up to really heavy damage mitigation outside of the pure resists in the set. Plus Invuln tank can cap their smash/lethal resist. AND they can take aid self. Even vs. Psi damage Invuln gets the benefit of buffed max HP.

The two sets aren't in the same world, please don't put out stupid non-factual propaganda like that.

Electric/Fire 41+ will likely be exceptionally strong if you can keep endo in you, yeah.

Since the set just got a moderately nice buff, I wouldn't worry about it being nerf fodder. Let the noobs say what they like, the set is nice and all but it won't take the place of Stone/Granite or the /Invuln set, and /Fire will likely become VERY popular once people get happy about AOE immobilize.

I'll be playing it because it looks fun and different, and has some nice potential for PVP, but I have no illusions of this set's hypothetical uberness. Late-game Stoners with rooted + granite will still be kings of defense in both brute and tank land, don't kid yourselves.

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Also, I made that other comment since every argument on the boards boils down to how good it is in PVP.

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There are some analogs between PVP and PVM, as I said the Electric Melee set will have problems vs. hard targets with lots of hitpoints e.g. bosses, elites and AVs. 6 of 9 powers are AOE and costs are scaled accordingly, while the single-target damage for these 6 attacks is less than spectacular and the only reliable control effect is knockdown. Pretty much all the other Brute attack sets will do better vs. bosses, elites and AVs.

Well it isn't really PBAOE, it's targeted AOE with range of 5 feet

Oh for PVM it will be okay, plenty of damage mitigation in 3 AOE knockdowns. I don't think the set will have problems in PVE in general. Where it isn't so great is in single-target damage, which is what PVP and boss killing are about. The set will likely be pretty hard to run vs. AVs, with the endo cost on the big signature moves. Unless you are planning on killing AVs with just charged brawl and havoc punch, the cost on the other attacks is scaled by the fact that they're AOE - EVERYTHING in the set is AOE after the first two attacks and buildup.

already posted by me early in the thread, for the first 4 attacks - something like 2.25 smashing on selected target, 2.25 AOE energy up to 10 targets 15 foot radius.

here ya go

5.32 base brawl damage
Charged Brawl:
7.39 Smashing = 1.39 BI
5.02 Energy = 0.94 BI
Total 2.33 BI

Havoc Punch:
11.83 Smashing = 2.22 BI
7.69 Energy = 1.45 BI
Total = 3.67 BI

Jacob's Ladder:
(A bit tricky here since I have 3x training dmg)
27.99 Energy * 0.7 = 19.59 = 3.68 BI

Thunderstrike:
14.79 Smashing = 2.78 BI
14.2 Energy = 2.66 BI
Total 5.44 BI


heh I screwed myself out of a BI!

I think it is likely that Castle mis-stated where the KB/Immob resist is going - all other KB/Immob resist in the game as far as I am aware is on a toggle or click, never on a passive. While it would be nifty to have these things on a passive, I just don't think it's terribly likely.

Yeah Thunder Strike is okay, it's just a bit surprising to get an attack that is so mechanically different from the blaster version of the same name. As AOEs go it's really not too bad, even compared to Foot Stomp imo (all smashing, where Thunder Strike's AOE is all energy).

I do feel the set is not very good at single-target burst damage, and is pretty much the worst choice for PVP - poor burst damage and no 100% status effect outside of knockdown. The major hole in this set is no analog of KO Blow/Seismic Smash/Total Focus. In terms of burst damage and crowd control effects, Stone and Super Strength are in every way superior sets, except for the large Energy content of Electric.

As with my experience with Blaster's Electric Manipulation secondary set melees, the endurance drain secondary effects on the Brute melees is largely inconsequential.

Nah, they have an "I'm being electrocuted!!" animation, they probably just have a number wrong and the effect is invoking the wrong animation.

There are also no 100% status effects applied by any of the powers except for knockdown. Lots of knockdown, which isn't bad, but every other set except Fire has some 100% disabling power (KO Blow, Total Focus, Touch of Fear, Seismic Smash). Fire is all right because of its very high damage over time - this set, it's an obvious weakness.

I think compared to all the other Brute top-tier powers it falls solidly into the "Sucks Real Bad" range.

You guys should get over this pipe dream of being able to just put endmods on your attacks and have them magically make you a profit on endo. There is no precedence for this, the attacks don't work that way. Pretty sure it's:
30% chance of recovering 50% the cost (unenhanced).

With 3x SO endmods, that's still only:
30% chance of recoverying 100% of the cost

for a net 1/3 cost reduction. You are better off slotting end reduction if you want to save endo. The reason you put endmod on attacks is to improve the end DRAIN, not the endo returned.

I would just like to get this thread back on its proper track:

boing. hehe.