[ QUOTE ]
I've entered quite a few team PvP matches and it's more of the same. Scrappers and Tankers will invariably go after squishy controllers and defenders and take them out the equation, dividing the team and leaving a blaster like me isolated. A simple attack chain and the blaster is often toast. Even if I do manage to cause some serious damage to a scrapper or a tanker, usually a self heal will change the tide and give them the advantage again.
[/ QUOTE ]
This highlights an imbalance in PVP, but it's not something toggle-dropping really covered up. It's not unlike my experiences in team vs team PVP prior to issue 7.
Unfortunately, for a lot of people who primarily play ranged ATs, any solution that does not weaken or punish melee is unacceptable. So when a change like this comes about, it suddenly becomes how melee ATs have wronged you all, and that does nothing for discussion.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
I have a 50 Elec/Elec and a 50 Invuln/EM tank. Just from my experience with PVP, my 50 Invuln/EM would be able to 3 shot my Elec/Elec with relative ease from melee range. My elec/elec does not have the ranged capability, even if I took ALL the powers in my primary and every single ranged attack in my epic, to take down my tank from range. Her only hope would have been to go into melee and use toggle dropping to get her mez defense down and hold her. Now that that option is gone, she will be fodder for any melee toon she fights.
If you expect Blasters to be able to fight from range, you have to give them effective attacks from range. Right now, only one, maybe two, Blaster primaries have the ability to do so and that is Fire/ and maybe Energy/, though I can say with some certainty that having fought a total ranged energy blaster in the past on both my brute and my tank, even they dont have the dmg output to be any serious threat.
Had the devs actually done any serious testing and not just listened from complaining from people, they would have seen this.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As for your example, that's just dead wrong. It's not a 100% chance to drop 3 toggles. Either you're overexaggerating or you used a small sample size of 2-3 attempts. I've been playing a fire/energy blaster since the summer of 2004, and I've tested and played energy against my sg mates. Bonesmasher does not drop 3 toggles 100% of the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Did I say 100%? No. I said "very reliable". Thanks for playing, though.
[/ QUOTE ]
In the post he was responding to, you did not say "very reliable." You said:
[ QUOTE ]
In testing with a buddy he dropped 3 toggles every time he touched me with Bonesmasher.
[/ QUOTE ]
every time = 100%
Sorry, but our judges have awarded this round to the Challenger. Here's a copy of our home game and don't let the studio doors hit you in the [censored] on your way out! 
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
[ QUOTE ]
In the post he was responding to, you did not say "very reliable." You said:
[ QUOTE ]
In testing with a buddy he dropped 3 toggles every time he touched me with Bonesmasher.
[/ QUOTE ]
every time = 100%
Sorry, but our judges have awarded this round to the Challenger. Here's a copy of our home game and don't let the studio doors hit you in the [censored] on your way out!
[/ QUOTE ]
Welcome to asshattery 101, folks. Where someone who introduces a contrary opinion will have their words dissected by self-appointed lords of What I Meant who will explain your own posts to you.
I never, ever claimed that the chance for the power to drop three toggles was 100%. I claimed that in our testing it worked that way. We tried it five times and it dropped three toggles every time.
I never claimed that was statistically significant. I never claimed that this meant that the toggle chance was 100%. I said, in the part of my post which you did not quote that it was "highly reliable".
Please return to your forum bridge. The are people crossing above it you may want to molest.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
Had the devs actually done any serious testing and not just listened from complaining from people, they would have seen this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Had the devs actually done any serious testing, and not just listened to complaining from blasters, they would have seen that the global defense reduction was a bad idea, and no one would've asked that the devs look into removing toggle droppers because melee defenses had taken two substantial hits in previous issues.
Or are the devs only incompetent when it's your ox getting gored?
Just to be clear: I'm not assigning incompetence to the devs. I'm trying to make a point.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the post he was responding to, you did not say "very reliable." You said:
[ QUOTE ]
In testing with a buddy he dropped 3 toggles every time he touched me with Bonesmasher.
[/ QUOTE ]
every time = 100%
Sorry, but our judges have awarded this round to the Challenger. Here's a copy of our home game and don't let the studio doors hit you in the [censored] on your way out!
[/ QUOTE ]
Welcome to asshattery 101, folks. Where someone who introduces a contrary opinion will have their words dissected by self-appointed lords of What I Meant who will explain your own posts to you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Welcome to backpeddling 101, folks. Where we will criticize someone for misquoting us, only to have the accuracy of our own words pointed out, causing us to make crude insults toward the person who pointed out our own inconsistencies. In this class we will also learn to conveniently ignore our own little snarky sniping comments (things like thank you for playing) while at the same time castigating those who do just as we do. Bonus points will be awarded to those of us who learn how to manipulate the English language and rules of logic to try and make it appear that we did not actually say what we clearly said.
Thank you, and goodnight.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
Dude, please quote, exactly, where I made this claim. Come on. Do it. Quote my claim, verbatim, that "Bonesmasher drops three toggles 100% of the time."
You want to get me for being unclear, fine. You got me. My lack of clarity left you room to put words in my mouth. I left out fine detail that gave you ammunition. That was my mistake.
Unlike some people, I don't come here to wordsmith everything not only that I say, but that others say too.
I don't make any claims of being superior to you. Oh no, I make my snarky comments and take my snipes. Because it feels good to make fun of people with superior attitudes like you seem to.
For those still listening out there, you'll notice that nowhere in the last four or so responses has anyone actually addressed the one salient point in my post. Oh, no, they've been picking at my semantic constructs (or lack thereof).
That point being? That PvP is not, and by dev declaration, shall never be, about one-on-one. That one-on-one is not to be balanced for. That some people will always best some other people in PvP, be it because of AT, powerset, or both.
And this change has made it so Blasters are, by and large, one of those ATs that can't be a "one" in "one-on-one". It think that causes a lot of resentment. I can certainly understand that, if it's true.
But I can't support it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously.
Dropping a toggle is far away from defeating an opponent. An attack like Bone Smasher is (was) assured to drop one toggle, has something like a 50% chance to drop another, and a much lower chance to drop a third. Even if it drops three toggles, the blaster still has to lay out the damage to take down the melee. But the melee can run away until his toggles come back up. He can pop a green of two. He can hit the blaster with a stun attack of his own (which will stun the blaster and drop all of the blasters toggles). And melee players have learned to run lots of toggles in PvP zones as a defense against blasters and controllers. So I dropped three toggles? lets see, I got sprint, combat jumping, and just one of several defensive toggles. Hmmmm
And what happened to me, the squishy blaster, who just closed to zero range against a scrapper or brute?
[/ QUOTE ]
I under stand this but toggle drops were to powerfull, being a tank in a pvp zone all you have is your taunt and toggles once my mez resist toggle is down Im a sitting duck, then your hold hits and thats the rest of my toggles and my ability to pop greens. With the 100% toggle drops you have a 1 in 5 chances to hit my mez protect then the less chance to knock out 2 more powers, so that and in my experince is most of the time 3 of 5 powers out, odds are you hit my mez and thats game over for me. and any other tank or scrapper that depends on toggles only for there defense, I have seen blasters kill me in 2 to 3 hits with aim/buildup bc i lost my toggles first.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously.
Dropping a toggle is far away from defeating an opponent. An attack like Bone Smasher is (was) assured to drop one toggle, has something like a 50% chance to drop another, and a much lower chance to drop a third. Even if it drops three toggles, the blaster still has to lay out the damage to take down the melee. But the melee can run away until his toggles come back up. He can pop a green of two. He can hit the blaster with a stun attack of his own (which will stun the blaster and drop all of the blasters toggles). And melee players have learned to run lots of toggles in PvP zones as a defense against blasters and controllers. So I dropped three toggles? lets see, I got sprint, combat jumping, and just one of several defensive toggles. Hmmmm
And what happened to me, the squishy blaster, who just closed to zero range against a scrapper or brute?
[/ QUOTE ]
I under stand this but toggle drops were to powerfull, being a tank in a pvp zone all you have is your taunt and toggles once my mez resist toggle is down Im a sitting duck, then your hold hits and thats the rest of my toggles and my ability to pop greens. With the 100% toggle drops you have a 1 in 5 chances to hit my mez protect then the less chance to knock out 2 more powers, so that and in my experince is most of the time 3 of 5 powers out, odds are you hit my mez and thats game over for me. and any other tank or scrapper that depends on toggles only for there defense, I have seen blasters kill me in 2 to 3 hits with aim/buildup bc i lost my toggles first.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem with the Toggle Dropper change was people only saw Blasters when they saw Toggle Droppers - Domniators got theirs gutted so most of us can't even drop toggles before Warburg, and those of us that can have a slow-as-hell power that still has a low chance to detoggle. I say if we were going to get ours reduced we should still have a 64% chance with our FIRST toggle dropper, and a 90% chance with our second. A lot of us have unbearably slow toggle droppers now that could more than likely get us killed.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Had the devs actually done any serious testing and not just listened from complaining from people, they would have seen this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Had the devs actually done any serious testing, and not just listened to complaining from blasters, they would have seen that the global defense reduction was a bad idea, and no one would've asked that the devs look into removing toggle droppers because melee defenses had taken two substantial hits in previous issues.
Or are the devs only incompetent when it's your ox getting gored?
Just to be clear: I'm not assigning incompetence to the devs. I'm trying to make a point.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, so Blasters were responsible for the global defense reduction. I suppose it had nothing to do with melee toons being neigh indestructible in PVE, herding, or powerleveling. I suppose you'll tell us next that we were responsible for ED, and every single nerf that Regen has had since the inception of the game.
Anything else you'd like to blame on blasters? Global warming, perhaps? High gas prices?
My point is that even with toggle dropping, things are not rosy for all blasters who arent Fire/Ice /EM, and that powersets like Elec, Archery, Assault Rifle, /Fire, /Ice, /Dev are having trouble enough competing WITH toggle dropping. So now we're going to go from having a 50/50 shot at winning to having next to nothing.
Congrats.
[ QUOTE ]
Anything else you'd like to blame on blasters? Global warming, perhaps? High gas prices?
[/ QUOTE ]
Gas Prices need serious nerfs.
I can under stand how Domniators feel they shouldn't have been hit so hard, I dont have a prob with them its the damn blasters i wanted nerfed lol
[ QUOTE ]
Had the devs actually done any serious testing, and not just listened to complaining from blasters, they would have seen that the global defense reduction was a bad idea, and no one would've asked that the devs look into removing toggle droppers because melee defenses had taken two substantial hits in previous issues.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it may have been wiser to put the GDR and ED right in with I4, since they were obviously already working on them back then. I imagine they chose not to for two reasons: 1) It would have been undeniabley hailed as a major nerf because of PvP (which happened a bit anyway, but less than if it had come concurrent with the Arena) ; 2) They were still fiddling with exactly how big the nerf needed to be in order to get the difficulty where they wanted.
Had they done any serious PvP testing, a lot of things would be different, but they are doing that testing now to the best of their ability I imagine, and thus we will have many changes over the next year. The fact that they reverted PvE hurricane should be heartening to all those who worry about PvP changes harming PvE.
After some more testing with my Kat/Inv scrapper, I am getting very concerned that melee dominance will be too strong once again. I haven't felt this good about that scrapper in PvP since I4. That isn't really a good thing in the long run. More testing will need to be done before I can come to firmer conclusions.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Had the devs actually done any serious testing and not just listened from complaining from people, they would have seen this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Had the devs actually done any serious testing, and not just listened to complaining from blasters, they would have seen that the global defense reduction was a bad idea, and no one would've asked that the devs look into removing toggle droppers because melee defenses had taken two substantial hits in previous issues.
Or are the devs only incompetent when it's your ox getting gored?
Just to be clear: I'm not assigning incompetence to the devs. I'm trying to make a point.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, so Blasters were responsible for the global defense reduction. I suppose it had nothing to do with melee toons being neigh indestructible in PVE, herding, or powerleveling. I suppose you'll tell us next that we were responsible for ED, and every single nerf that Regen has had since the inception of the game.
Anything else you'd like to blame on blasters? Global warming, perhaps? High gas prices?
My point is that even with toggle dropping, things are not rosy for all blasters who arent Fire/Ice /EM, and that powersets like Elec, Archery, Assault Rifle, /Fire, /Ice, /Dev are having trouble enough competing WITH toggle dropping. So now we're going to go from having a 50/50 shot at winning to having next to nothing.
Congrats.
[/ QUOTE ]
You completely missed my point, but I think it's funny that you can believe that:
- The melee nerfs were completely justified
and
- The toggle-dropping nerf is the result of rank incompetence
The truth is, from issues 2 through 4, blasters burned a huge amount of bandwidth whining endlessly about tankers and scrappers, even to the point of blatantly lying about what scrappers were capable of. It's just as reasonable to conclude that the global defense reduction in issue 5, plus the individual nerfs in issues 3 and 4 came from that whining as it is to conclude that the only reason toggle-dropping was reduced was due to melee complaints. I don't really see how it makes sense to claim that changes you like are balanced and fair, but a change you hate is solely due to an incompetent decision based on nothing more than whining.
You can't have both assumptions. Or rather, you can, but it undermines your basic argument.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
<<Had the devs actually done any serious testing, and not just listened to complaining from blasters,>>
Wow do you know anything about complaining Blasters? Let me illuminate you.
Top Ten Blaster complaints
1) Defiance
2) no scaling of damage at end game
3) not enough ranged attack chains
4) Drastic difference between successufl PvP and PvE builds
5) Imbalance of secondaries (Do devs think the change to greater fire sword cure this? I hope not)
6) Lack of status protection
7) Defiance
8) Aoe target limit
9) Glass cannon vs Glass water pistol
10) Defiance
* ed gets throw in there, but usually is a subset of some of the things above,
Believe me, if the Devs spent 1 minute listening to complaining Blasters a dozen+ other things would have been changed long before whatever change that occurred because of what you think blasters complained about tanks or whatever. Red names stay away from our forums because they've mislead us in the past (end drain), have made promises they haven't followed up on (blaster review), and refuse to even dialogue about some of our widespread complaints (defiance).
Castle's been brave enough to stop by and been very honest about what he can do, what is optimal etc, which a lot of us appreciate. But blaster complaints run deep, since a lot of our complaints are well over a year old.
However with that said, if you aren't a FOTM you'd realize how frustrating and unfun PvP is, and to a lesser degree PvE
Just for the record, i thought global nerf was a bad idea to. I think 100% toggle drop was a to much as well. I think a lot of non FOTM blasters would like to PvP. I think a large percentage of those blasters dont want to choose between a PvP and PvE build. Toggle dropping was just a small portion that allowed non-FOTM, non PvP specific, non HOed out blasters to have a chance to succeed. It was reduced to much. 100% is to much 5\22% is to little.
*edited for clarity and to stay on topic.
Nerf Blaster Controllers!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Had the devs actually done any serious testing, and not just listened to complaining from blasters, they would have seen that the global defense reduction was a bad idea, and no one would've asked that the devs look into removing toggle droppers because melee defenses had taken two substantial hits in previous issues.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, it may have been wiser to put the GDR and ED right in with I4, since they were obviously already working on them back then. I imagine they chose not to for two reasons: 1) It would have been undeniabley hailed as a major nerf because of PvP (which happened a bit anyway, but less than if it had come concurrent with the Arena) ; 2) They were still fiddling with exactly how big the nerf needed to be in order to get the difficulty where they wanted.
Had they done any serious PvP testing, a lot of things would be different, but they are doing that testing now to the best of their ability I imagine, and thus we will have many changes over the next year. The fact that they reverted PvE hurricane should be heartening to all those who worry about PvP changes harming PvE.
After some more testing with my Kat/Inv scrapper, I am getting very concerned that melee dominance will be too strong once again. I haven't felt this good about that scrapper in PvP since I4. That isn't really a good thing in the long run. More testing will need to be done before I can come to firmer conclusions.
[/ QUOTE ]
I wasn't making a serious comment on the reasons for GDR and ED. I was turning Estrella's point around to make a point of my own.
Predictably, Estrella completely missed the point and took my statement literally. Gotta love those "melee players are the devil" blaster players.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
<<Had the devs actually done any serious testing, and not just listened to complaining from blasters,>>
Wow do you know anything about complaining Blasters? Let me illuminate you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, actually I do. I remember blasters insisting that scrappers spend a majority of their time at the 500% damage cap (not true), that broadsword scrappers were two-shotting +3 bosses (definitely not true), and so on. I've read blaster anti-melee whine-threads since issue 2 and the smoke grenade nerf, and I know I'm not the only poster who has seen this.
This does not mean that blasters don't have complaints about the AT itself, but for a long time those complaints were constantly framed in terms of what could be done to the melee ATs to make blasters work better.
But like Estrella, you missed my point completely. I don't think that blaster whining was the primary cause of melee defense nerfs any more than I think that melee complaints are the primary cause of reductions to toggle-dropping. At best, those complaints illuminated real issues. The devs looked at those issues, tested, and made changes based on that testing.
To claim that one set of nerfs is justified and another nerf is not based solely on your own advocacy isn't constructive.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
[ QUOTE ]
Welcome to backpeddling 101, folks. Where we will criticize someone for misquoting us, only to have the accuracy of our own words pointed out, causing us to make crude insults toward the person who pointed out our own inconsistencies. In this class we will also learn to conveniently ignore our own little snarky sniping comments (things like &#8220;thank you for playing&#8221
while at the same time castigating those who do just as we do. Bonus points will be awarded to those of us who learn how to manipulate the English language and rules of logic to try and make it appear that we did not actually say what we clearly said.
Thank you, and goodnight.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh thank god. I heard "accuracy" and thought somehow the I7 Accuracy Scaler leaked into the toggle thread. Luckily, it turns out to be just a toggle dropping flame war.
The addition of toggle dropping was probably a necessary evil, but I think they could have picked a much better class of evil. I think something probably had to be done, but of all the ways to balance PvP combat, toggle dropping would have been last on my list, after "make snowballs do unresistable cold damage" and "randomly cause you and your opponent to switch powers and defenses via an improbability field."
In fact, they had a really good pre-existing mechanism for making the unkillable killable. We know it by another name: "the Hamidon." Ask any experienced Hamidon raider what happens to Hamidon Nucleus resistances when holds are stacked on it, but before its actually held. Variants of that mechanism would have probably been better than toggle dropping for balancing high resistance/high regeneration melee fighters against lower damage attackers. "Better" as in "less likely to give players strokes." Possibly harder to code, but better nonetheless.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
<<Had the devs actually done any serious testing, and not just listened to complaining from blasters,>>
Wow do you know anything about complaining Blasters? Let me illuminate you.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, actually I do. I remember blasters insisting that scrappers spend a majority of their time at the 500% damage cap (not true), that broadsword scrappers were two-shotting +3 bosses (definitely not true), and so on. I've read blaster anti-melee whine-threads since issue 2 and the smoke grenade nerf, and I know I'm not the only poster who has seen this.
This does not mean that blasters don't have complaints about the AT itself, but for a long time those complaints were constantly framed in terms of what could be done to the melee ATs to make blasters work better.
But like Estrella, you missed my point completely. I don't think that blaster whining was the primary cause of melee defense nerfs any more than I think that melee complaints are the primary cause of reductions to toggle-dropping. At best, those complaints illuminated real issues. The devs looked at those issues, tested, and made changes based on that testing.
To claim that one set of nerfs is justified and another nerf is not based solely on your own advocacy isn't constructive.
[/ QUOTE ]
And I disagree that the devs actually tested the issue of toggle dropping and blaster performance in PvP because if they did, they would have seen that using toggle dropping on any blaster combo that isnt a FOTM PVP set carries just as much risk as it does reward, which if I recall correctly is what this game is supposed to be balanced around.
so just to make sure, the devs didn't think this toggle change through and just pushed it to test. why is that again?
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, actually I do. I remember blasters insisting that scrappers spend a majority of their time at the 500% damage cap (not true), that broadsword scrappers were two-shotting +3 bosses (definitely not true), and so on. I've read blaster anti-melee whine-threads since issue 2 and the smoke grenade nerf, and I know I'm not the only poster who has seen this.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would consider the winner in the "Which AT has the stupidests complainers" too close to call myself.
For instance, blasters *and* scrappers were arguing for months over which one should get the higher damage cap, and no amount of logic could convince hardly anyone that who got the *higher* cap was a practically meaningless question. They were arguing over an issue comparable to which one should get the louder sound effects. But trying to argue that the issue was really whether each cap was appropriate to each set independently was something between Herculean and Quixotic, and I didn't have the energy to figure out which.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
The addition of toggle dropping was probably a necessary evil, but I think they could have picked a much better class of evil. I think something probably had to be done, but of all the ways to balance PvP combat, toggle dropping would have been last on my list, after "make snowballs do unresistable cold damage" and "randomly cause you and your opponent to switch powers and defenses via an improbability field."
In fact, they had a really good pre-existing mechanism for making the unkillable killable. We know it by another name: "the Hamidon." Ask any experienced Hamidon raider what happens to Hamidon Nucleus resistances when holds are stacked on it, but before its actually held. Variants of that mechanism would have probably been better than toggle dropping for balancing high resistance/high regeneration melee fighters against lower damage attackers. "Better" as in "less likely to give players strokes." Possibly harder to code, but better nonetheless.
[/ QUOTE ]
And I happen to think that a decent number of veteran players agree with this perspective.
Does this mean that, right now, "ex toggle droppers" and "people with toggles to drop" are balanced in good ways? No. It doesn't. And I take previous dev comments to mean that it doesn't have to be.
Do I think it's great that any AT has the ability to hold off more than one other AT? Not really. But I strongly feel that any balance changes that would change such a thing would be on a level and scope that would have serious spill over into PvE; a PvE game that I love dearly and don't want to see more sweeping changes to unless they're to fix underperforming powers and ATs.
For what it's worth, I've been in PvP on a Brute once, and for many hours on two Corruptors, a Blaster and a Dominator. So please try to believe that my PvP perspective is not biased towards playing "god mode" on my melee characters. I actually have no experience with that.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
so just to make sure, the devs didn't think this toggle change through and just pushed it to test. why is that again?
[/ QUOTE ]
Circeus's Force Field Defender came out of retirement long enough to steal Geko's candy.
I'm sorry, Fanboy, but you know very well that there's no understanding what the hell goes on in these people's minds. They nerfed Flash Arrow. They buffed /SR scrappers - the same powerset that Pingu's used to Tapper nearly every AV out there. They let Statesman and Geko near the SpreadSheet of Doom. They thought ED would be joyous fun. The developers released Swipe.
For a glimpse into their mind, this is the sort of data they had access to not months before releasing this change :
[ QUOTE ]
In terms of raw kills, Blasters are the better PvP killers, but only if they have Energy Manipulation. Without EM, they are roughly 60% of scrappers numbers. In terms of kills to death ratio, Blasters are slightly behind scrappers with EM, but competing with Defenders and Dominators for lowest value Note, that these are solo values! Things are very different in team play.
[/ QUOTE ]
Does that scream out to you "Nerf Defenders, Dominators, and non-EM Blasters heavily without giving them a single thing back?"
[ QUOTE ]
Does that scream out to you "Nerf Defenders, Dominators, and non-EM Blasters heavily without giving them a single thing back?"
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope. But taking the two together, and looking at how changes/nerfs/buffs have worked in the past, I think it screams "we're not done with this yet."
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
[ QUOTE ]
As for your example, that's just dead wrong. It's not a 100% chance to drop 3 toggles. Either you're overexaggerating or you used a small sample size of 2-3 attempts. I've been playing a fire/energy blaster since the summer of 2004, and I've tested and played energy against my sg mates. Bonesmasher does not drop 3 toggles 100% of the time.
[/ QUOTE ]
Did I say 100%? No. I said "very reliable". Thanks for playing, though.
[ QUOTE ]
That argument doesn't hold water with me. It's not balanced when it's takes multiple characters to take down one scrapper/tanker when that said scrapper/tanker can dismantle the opposing team by squishing the blaster or defender.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry you feel that way. You're wrong. PvP is a team contest only. If it wasn't, one-on-one would be viable. It's declared as non viable. Therefore, by definition, two or more on one is sometimes required. Period. End of story. If you don't like it you've got a rough road ahead. This is not my dictum, it's the dev's.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA