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Did I say always win?
No, I said out-meleed. It's one thing to be jousted to death with ranged attacks and the occaisonal blap, which has been done to me before, and hey, I didnt complain.
When I have /EM blaster walk up and three shot my EM/DA Brute with nothing but pure melee attacks, it shows something was wrong with the old system of toggle drops.
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It might just show that the blaster gets lucky occasionally. How often has a blaster walked up to you and you handed him his [censored]?
Ive seen it before, and Im seeing it here too. The attitude that says a melee toon being defeated by a well-played blaster is wrong. As if melee should walk like gods among the squishies. As if it should be right and good that several squishies should be required to defeat a single brute.
I exaggerate here for effect, and Im not trying to single you out specifically, Haetron. Heck, just this past week a brute player in another thread flat-out stated that brutes should never have to run from a blaster. From my perspective
my blaster perspective, of course
this is a very prevalent and very arrogant attitude.
Having said all that
Yeah, it seems that an adjustment was required. But this goes too far the other direction.
In my squishy opinion.
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On the same point, I hear everyone decry the overpoweredness of melee classes and bemoan their "poor squishies" when they forget what a huge advantage range can be. I have to close range and somehow manage to maintain melee range, in a system where escape from melee range is easily and often possible.
My melee with blappers on live has ALWAYS ended the same way. Im getting my toggles dropped and having my entire secondary negated like tissue paper, ((The reason the myth that /em Bonesmash drops all toggles exist is it has a high percentage to drop multiple toggles, and if it hits your stat protection toggle, the stun is applied and everything drops.))and if I do try to kill them first, I get three shotted due to defiance.
This isn't a "This happens 2 out of 10 times, waah" situation. It's a "This happens 9 out of 10 times and has pretty much gotten me to quit bothering PVPing at all" situation.
Can you imagine the complaints if classes had the ability to randomly "decharge" attack powers? IE, I take my brute, hit a blaster with bonesmasher, and suddenly, 3 of his attacks are unusable for 5-6 seconds? There would be a lot of outcry of "This prevents me from doing damage, thats what my powersets are all about!"
Yet it's perfectly fine and should remain intact that a melee classes defenses, which not only had the sledge taken to them with enhancement diversification, but also were ripped to shreds before that with I5's Global Defense nerf, be completely negated in PvP?
Sorry, Ill continue to cry foul on that.
Is it possible to have a serious debate on this issue without resulting to insulting posts dripping with sarcasm? When things like this are introduced we move farther and farther away from anything resembling a meaningful discussion and drift more toward personal issues with varying posters. This doesn't do anyone any good whatsoever.
Random assumption on what the devs have or have not done, have or have not considered, or have or have not looked at is pointless. Nobody has any idea what prompted the changes or what research and ground work was laid out prior unless a redname specifically states it. The assumptions, especially the negative ones, only show unhappiness with the change and an inability to attribute it to anything valid regarding pre-existing in game mechanics.
These are test numbers. Whether you're happy with the numbers or not happy with the numbers, we don't know what the final changes will be until they are applied to the live servers. Don't like the numbers? Think they'll negatively impact the live PvP game? Go out and test them! Put yourself in set up scenarios with varying AT's and see what happens. Record your results! Post them here! Give the devs something to actually look at and consider! You're not going to garner much attention by saying something like, "These numbers are horrible! I won't be able to survive 5 seconds!" or, "This is good. It's about time.".
I took my fire/nrg blaster and my assault/dev blaster out yesterday and had some people test with me. Thank you to ElectraFlame, Surge-Protector, and the rest for helping me. My /nrg blaster was still able to 2-5 shot defensive set melee AT's (/sr scrapper, /nrg and /ninj stalkers) with aim and buildup running with a chain of BS, Nrg Punch, and blaze and fireblast on the jump back (fireball or another fireblast if necessary). Toggle dropping had no influence. Resistance based sets were more difficult, of course. Fighting an invul/ss tank and nrg/invul brute I did get an unyielding drop on two occasions out of 12 instances (lucky in my opinion) and was able to utilize the mez'ing aspect to get a few kills. Movement is still key, as has always been the case. My art/device blaster has always had to use distance and set up as a means to garner kills. Leading targets into tripmines is still a viable tactic (I don't have tp foe on him). Running teams with some support AT's and melee classes made all the difference. I still have to test my elec/elec, an ice/ice, and a sonic/nrg.
"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')
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Total Focus does not have a DropToggles attribute. It does have a Disorient, and that can drop toggles.
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Uh...that doesn't explain this, from your list:
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Dominator: Total Focus: 64% for 1 Toggle
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So, is that inaccurate, or is it the Blaster/Tanker versions that have no DropToggle attribute?
Does being disoriented not drop ALL active toggles? I'm asking because I don't know.
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Argh! Blasters, Tankers, Brutes and Stalkers Total focus does not have a Toggle Drop associated with it (aside from the Disorient) -- Dominators do. I didn't re-read the entire list and only checked the Blaster version for the quoted post. Sorry.
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You have the numbers on everything and you even get confused
what powers do what in PvP.
I think its time to release numbers on everything _Castle_ .
Also, could the power descriptions be edited so that they take
into account PvP. Most people dont even know about toggle
dropping.
There needs to be a place to go where we can find out what
exactly our powers do.
Since PvP has been brought in and the game has been out so
long, there is a massive player base that is now enjoying choosing
powers for what they do rather than concept. Is it not time to
relase power information? Please?
Fidens lvl 50 Katana/Regen Scrapper
Scarred Dream lvl 50 Ice/Dark Corrupter
Hephaestus II lvl 40 Fire/Thermal Corrupter
Evolution/Malevolence - Virtue
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Had the devs actually done any serious testing and not just listened from complaining from people, they would have seen this.
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Had the devs actually done any serious testing, and not just listened to complaining from blasters, they would have seen that the global defense reduction was a bad idea, and no one would've asked that the devs look into removing toggle droppers because melee defenses had taken two substantial hits in previous issues.
Or are the devs only incompetent when it's your ox getting gored?
Just to be clear: I'm not assigning incompetence to the devs. I'm trying to make a point.
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Ah, so Blasters were responsible for the global defense reduction. I suppose it had nothing to do with melee toons being neigh indestructible in PVE, herding, or powerleveling. I suppose you'll tell us next that we were responsible for ED, and every single nerf that Regen has had since the inception of the game.
Anything else you'd like to blame on blasters? Global warming, perhaps? High gas prices?
My point is that even with toggle dropping, things are not rosy for all blasters who arent Fire/Ice /EM, and that powersets like Elec, Archery, Assault Rifle, /Fire, /Ice, /Dev are having trouble enough competing WITH toggle dropping. So now we're going to go from having a 50/50 shot at winning to having next to nothing.
Congrats.
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Actually I did extensive testing of why tanks were as tough as they were and it had nothing to do with resists in I4. I tested and proved without a doubt in my mind why an Inv tank could herd +7s, groups of 100 and all. It was all because of one broken power In the case of Inv that the devs never even realized was broken until a tank player finally figured out what it was doing AFTER I5 was released. Best part is the devs did all their testing for the defense nerf based on the use of this borked power and never realized it. The power in question was Invincibility. It was stacking with itself granting defenses so high as to floor anything once you got yourself a nice little group. Throw in even low resists and you were near unkillable. My tests all pointed out that Invinciblity was the problem with Inv tank and it was all ignored in favor of destroying Inv resists in both its passives and in Unyielding. Problem is now that Invicibility has been fixed they have not undone the damage to the passives and Unyielding. The reason anyone could herd some many has only been fixed because of the limited amount of aggro one person could gather. That is what happened to Inv tanks and it was because many people were whining without knowing what was happening, because even simple testing would have shown the devs the problems but somehow they missed that and then ignored our testing.
As for Regen yes many of it's nerfs likely had more to do with whining then anything else, but not just blaster whining there are tankers who whined as well.
I see PvP as the cause for ED and in a small way blasters are part of it. ED did many things one thing it really didn't do is lower DPS much or DPE, but it totally slammed burst damage something Blasters and Scrapper used to excel at. Burst damage is how one wins in PvP in most games thus in a round about way its all Blasters fault (J/K).
Toggle dropping on top of unresistable damage on top of the GDN is just kicking a man in the jewels when he's down. Can you really argue that a fire/Ene blaster needs toggle dropping to kill an Inv/SS tank? That Inv has at most 27.5 resists to fire should you really be able to just drop that to 11.8 with a toggle dropper?
Another thing is toggle dropping makes defense based sets far more powerful then resist or healing based ones. Its a balance issue here. Ice tanks and Inv might mitigate the same damage but throw in toggle dropping and the Inv is getting creamed since he may mitigate 50% of the incoming he is still getting hit and thus loosing his toggles. Ice is loosing his toggle half as often since his mitigation is through defense.
Another balance issue is that neither tanks nor scrappers have toggle droppers in their powersets. How come a blaster can hit me with bonesmasher and knock my toggle down but I hit him with hack and his toggles are totally safe? Toggles like tough, hover, CJ, Stealth, Tactics, Assault and the like are all possible to be being run by that blaster but my broadsword primary can't do a bloody thing about it where as your Energy secondary can?
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My melee with blappers on live has ALWAYS ended the same way. Im getting my toggles dropped and having my entire secondary negated like tissue paper, ((The reason the myth that /em Bonesmash drops all toggles exist is it has a high percentage to drop multiple toggles, and if it hits your stat protection toggle, the stun is applied and everything drops.))and if I do try to kill them first, I get three shotted due to defiance.
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Your stance boils down to - the blapper should be 100% reliant on outside buffs or breakfrees, but you shouldn't have to do anything more than start your status toggle before the fight even begins. Nobody says you can't just eat a breakfree like every blaster pretty much is required to, and then - so what if your status toggle gets dropped?
Like you can't hold/disorient/fear the blaster? Every brute set has a 100% chance status effect power by level 20, if they choose to take it. In my experience closing to melee with a well-played brute is pretty iffy even with toggle dropping the way it was. If I dared to do it without a good supply of breakfrees it was a very consistent string of losses. Now that toggle dropping is effectively removed, I don't see any point in closing to melee at all except from stealth, and then only to ambush people dumb enough not to have +perception.
Edit: oops, that's excepting Fire Melee, no status effect there.
Anyhow I don't see why you enjoy being kited, that way nobody wins, it's just a big dumb irritating stalemate. I have yet to see anyone kite in a way that is fun for both parties, and that is what you'll have since closing to melee is being pretty heavily discouraged with this change.
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Toggle dropping on top of unresistable damage on top of the GDN is just kicking a man in the jewels when he's down. Can you really argue that a fire/Ene blaster needs toggle dropping to kill an Inv/SS tank? That Inv has at most 27.5 resists to fire should you really be able to just drop that to 11.8 with a toggle dropper?
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Do you really think 15.7% resist is making or breaking you in pvp? If it was, then do you think a 78% reduction in chance to toggle drop can possibly be a balanced response?
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Another balance issue is that neither tanks nor scrappers have toggle droppers in their powersets. How come a blaster can hit me with bonesmasher and knock my toggle down but I hit him with hack and his toggles are totally safe? Toggles like tough, hover, CJ, Stealth, Tactics, Assault and the like are all possible to be being run by that blaster but my broadsword primary can't do a bloody thing about it where as your Energy secondary can?
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Aside from having pretty competitive damage, FAR higher hitpoints and resistance, always-on status resistance? Even with your toggles off at the start of the fight you have a pretty solid comparison with any blaster build.
Where does this leave Assualt Rifle / Devices blasters?
I've only heard of one tactic concerning devices which is the Tp Foe + Mines method. The only thing I've heard of getting "gunned down" by this combo was Master Minds.
All I've really seen thread wise is blaster melee attacks. (usualy just Energy and Electric)
Just where do blaster stand using only their ranged attacks... and where does fire and ice manipulation stand?
Broken down... Primary and Secondary... where does each powerset stand?
And yes... this is a serious question. Because as it stands now.... it seems like only a couple sets are causing grief and the rest just get to watch.
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Where does this leave Assualt Rifle / Devices blasters?
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In the toilet. Good luck toe-bombing that frisky jumping Brute at all, let alone getting a toggle drop out of it, let ALONE actually hitting his status toggle (maybe 1 chance in 20 or 25, considering a typical 4 or so toggles).
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Where does this leave Assualt Rifle / Devices blasters?
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In the toilet. Good luck toe-bombing that frisky jumping Brute at all, let alone getting a toggle drop out of it, let ALONE actually hitting his status toggle (maybe 1 chance in 20 or 25, considering a typical 4 or so toggles).
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Took mine to Sirens and Warburg yesterday for several hours and had a good time hunting stalkers and others and "running away until I was 'safe'" right by my bank of trips. Only died once when I got held by an ice corruptor. Haven't had as much fun in a zone in quite a while.
"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')
/Devices' sole redeeming grace in PVP is stackable +perception. Otherwise IMO it's the worst set of them all.
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Toggle dropping on top of unresistable damage on top of the GDN is just kicking a man in the jewels when he's down. Can you really argue that a fire/Ene blaster needs toggle dropping to kill an Inv/SS tank? That Inv has at most 27.5 resists to fire should you really be able to just drop that to 11.8 with a toggle dropper?
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Do you really think 15.7% resist is making or breaking you in pvp? If it was, then do you think a 78% reduction in chance to toggle drop can possibly be a balanced response?
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I think its a balanced response since I don't think you ever should have had any chance at dropping my toggles without overcoming my status protection or draining my end.
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Another balance issue is that neither tanks nor scrappers have toggle droppers in their powersets. How come a blaster can hit me with bonesmasher and knock my toggle down but I hit him with hack and his toggles are totally safe? Toggles like tough, hover, CJ, Stealth, Tactics, Assault and the like are all possible to be being run by that blaster but my broadsword primary can't do a bloody thing about it where as your Energy secondary can?
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Aside from having pretty competitive damage, FAR higher hitpoints and resistance, always-on status resistance? Even with your toggles off at the start of the fight you have a pretty solid comparison with any blaster build.
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The damage between tanks and blasters is not competitive at all. At best he's doing 80% of your damage but you even have a cap of 500% compared to his 400%, and then you generally have two self damage boosts and he has one. You are way out damaging him from the get go add in 30% unresistable damage to boot as well. You also have ranged attacks of great value that he lacks.
Pure S/L sets are tough, no doubt. However the same is true of say Broadsword. It's pure S/L and everyone and their brother can get some resist and defense to it. Makes it weaker PvP then other sets no doubt.
I have no answer for why it is that way but it is and they seem determined to keep it so.
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If you expect Blasters to be able to fight from range, you have to give them effective attacks from range. Right now, only one, maybe two, Blaster primaries have the ability to do so and that is Fire/ and maybe Energy/, though I can say with some certainty that having fought a total ranged energy blaster in the past on both my brute and my tank, even they dont have the dmg output to be any serious threat.
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I'm sorry LaEstrella, but this is completely untrue. There are several Blasters on Virtue that are completely capable of defeating melee opponents from range without toggle drops. You want names? How about MoBo, an Ice/Ice Blaster that dispatches Brutes with a frightening efficiency entirely from range. How about Aatiya Livewire, Energy/Energy? that likes to hover blast my Brute right to the hospital. There are many others that do the same. Toggle drops are not neccessary for Blasters to succeed, and haven't been since ED. The problem is that so many Blasters have become too reliant on them, and don't know how to win without them, so they assume it can't be done.
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My melee with blappers on live has ALWAYS ended the same way. Im getting my toggles dropped and having my entire secondary negated like tissue paper, ((The reason the myth that /em Bonesmash drops all toggles exist is it has a high percentage to drop multiple toggles, and if it hits your stat protection toggle, the stun is applied and everything drops.))and if I do try to kill them first, I get three shotted due to defiance.
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Your stance boils down to - the blapper should be 100% reliant on outside buffs or breakfrees, but you shouldn't have to do anything more than start your status toggle before the fight even begins. Nobody says you can't just eat a breakfree like every blaster pretty much is required to, and then - so what if your status toggle gets dropped?
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No my stance boils down to, Blasters shouldn't outmelee melee based ATs.
I personally don't buy the "Melee ATs should have to rely on breakfrees just as much as others" line of thought, because quite frankly, I think my status protection and defenses SHOULD be reliable, I spent a power slot on it. The defense sets are why we DONT get reliable ranged attacks, we DONT get blaster level damage, we DONT get unresistable damage in our attacks.
Again, I state, if there were tanker/brute/scrapper attacks that randomly disabled Blasters ability to blast in their primaries, Defenders ability to buff and existing buffs, and Controllers ability to Hold, players of those three ATs would be screaming bloody murder.
But its fine for a Melee ATs powersets to be worthless in PVP? That viewpoint is utter garbage, IMO.
And yes, Im aware that a status affect CAN negate the abilities of the ATs I listed above, however there are also multiple buffs and of course breakfrees. There is however, no buff, or inspiration, that prevents toggle drops.
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The damage between tanks and blasters is not competitive at all. At best he's doing 80% of your damage but you even have a cap of 500% compared to his 400%, and then you generally have two self damage boosts and he has one. You are way out damaging him from the get go add in 30% unresistable damage to boot as well. You also have ranged attacks of great value that he lacks.
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Considering the blaster had to close to melee to take advantage of toggle drops, we can write off the range advantage. That leaves really just two sets that are particularly good at melee, /electric and /energy. /Electric in particular is almost completely Smashing, which you likely have very close to capped resistance against with your toggles up. /EM is also still mostly smashing until Total Focus.
I dare you to say you have regular problems with blasters killing your tanks completely from range. In my experience that simply does not ever happen. The tank has lots and lots and lots of time to simply break line of sight, and completely controls whether he wins or loses the fight. In the comparison of a single all-ranged blaster vs. a single tank, the blaster likely cannot possibly win unless the tank chooses to let them. The reverse isn't true, as you can close to melee by movement or TP Foe, inflict status on the blaster (KO Blow, Total Focus e.g.) and force it to boil down to inspiration use. Both parties are forced to do things that aren't particularly fun - kite, and be kited.
Being buffed to damage cap I think we can discount. The only way that happens in PVP is when the player eats a lot of inspirations. Nothing prevents you from doing the same and eating a lot of inspirations as well. All AT comparisons break completely when one person or the other eats a handful of inspirations. E.g. you could eat 10 purple insps and floor his acc even through aim + buildup.
Heaven forbid the AT that is described as the squishy damage AT actually have some delusions of a damage advantage!
The unfortunate fact of the matter here is that there is no way to please everyone in this situation and the devs know that. Most of the people here have acknowledge, if grudgingly, that the numbers before were too high after the def/res reduction of i5 and i6. The melee types of course will love thee new numbers while others will argue that it's too low. I know that this is the wrong analogy to use as using real world examples always gets the "I can't believe your comparing a game to that" response but this is very much like the abortion debate in America. Some people are 100% against it, some 100% for it, and only a few couldn't care either way. Now, how this does relate to the game is that people are very passionate about their characters and want them to exel whether it is in PVE or PVP. Now, pretty much all we can do is take the new modification and play with it and test it. The devs will surely be watching the numbers over the next few months - and yes, I'm saying that these numbers will most likely go live. Whether the devs keep the numbers in the months leading up to i8 will mainly depend on the numbers generated.
Everyone here from scrappers to blasters from tankers to defenders have dealt with nerfs in the past. I'm not going to mention any sets that have had to deal with more or less nerfs **COUGH-see sig-COUGH** but the point is that we are all still here playing the game and adapting to those changes.
In my opinion, toggle dropping was a poor fix to the i3-i4 unbeatable defenses of tanks and scrappers. The reductions in i5 and i6 were needed even if unliked and seemingly harsh.
I saw them as gutting to my scrapper as controllers found breakfrees gutting to their characters. Especially one of two toggles in my secondary was made a click power leaving only 1 toggle - unlike many PVP min/maxers I didn't have Combat Jumping, SS, SL; I use TP as my travel power and I did pick up tactics and assault. So almost any toggle drop would mean I would then be stunned, dazed, or held.
I know many people say deal with it since we all have to but I don't think it's that simple. I couldn't go up and hit you with a melee attack and force you not to use your secondaries (or in case of tanks - primaries). Yes, some ATs have a disorient effect and DM has Touch of Fear but we still can't force you to drop your huricane unless we got especially lucky with a jumping brawl attack.
So my suggestion is to play with these new numbers so that the devs can get a good reading on the results and then hope for a change down the road. Adjust tactics just as we have done with each new "nerf" that the issues bring us. Most of all, remember that it is just a game and, hopefully, is there to have fun with.
I love the changes.
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I personally don't buy the "Melee ATs should have to rely on breakfrees just as much as others" line of thought, because quite frankly, I think my status protection and defenses SHOULD be reliable, I spent a power slot on it. The defense sets are why we DONT get reliable ranged attacks, we DONT get blaster level damage, we DONT get unresistable damage in our attacks.
Again, I state, if there were tanker/brute/scrapper attacks that randomly disabled Blasters ability to blast in their primaries, Defenders ability to buff and existing buffs, and Controllers ability to Hold, players of those three ATs would be screaming bloody murder.
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*SCREAMS BLOODY MURDER*
Tanks, Brutes and Scrappers do in fact have just such attacks. Hold, Disorient, and now Sleep (Electric brutes). Not every single set gets them, but then not all Blaster sets get them either (Fire/ and /Fire spring to mind). If you choose to build your scrapper/tank/brute for PVP, you have the choice of selecting a powerset with 100% chance of status infliction, which will disable - and to be precise, not randomly at all, but 100% of the time! - your opponent's powers completely.
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But its fine for a Melee ATs powersets to be worthless in PVP? That viewpoint is utter garbage, IMO.
And yes, Im aware that a status affect CAN negate the abilities of the ATs I listed above, however there are also multiple buffs and of course breakfrees. There is however, no buff, or inspiration, that prevents toggle drops.
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If the blaster does not have a breakfree in hand you WILL beat them a very high percent of the time, with one of the many sets for these ATs that has a status effect. And again, your stance boils down to, that is just as it should be. You shouldn't be bothered to carry breakfrees because hey, you took a power pick that makes you immune to every status effect anyone can try to stick on you. That's a good example of a double standard if I ever saw one.
Pff, well enjoy the kiting folks! 
I'll be making an elec/elec brute anyway, I have no interest in completely respecing my blapper for range.
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Considering the blaster had to close to melee to take advantage of toggle drops, we can write off the range advantage.
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The phrase is choose to close to take advantage of toggle drops not had too.
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...almost completely Smashing, which you likely have very close to capped resistance against with your toggles up
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Really? Well lets see. Fire can ride his resist caps to S/L how exactly? Oh yeah he can constantly pop sturdies because outside of that it aint happening, he isn't even getting all that close even with everything he could have. Ice....your talking resists so skip it. Stone.....well with granite he can but toggle droppers can't drop that anyway and he takes a -recharge and -damage to even do that never mind the -speed. Inv .... ah this must be the tank you speak of after all if he has 3 slotted for resist TI + Uy + Tough + RPD then he can indeed do this, but he shouldn't be able to rely on three of them right? He needs two powers from a power pool and three from his primary to achieve this and yet he shouldn't actually be able to expect it to work, why is that?
So tanks can run if they don't want to fight you....ok so. You can run from tanks as well, worst case you need to hit a breakfree to do so.
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Both parties are forced to do things that aren't particularly fun - kite, and be kited.
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Yes both have to. Not the tank is dead at range so he must close but if he does his defenses will likely all be negated....how is that fair?
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Being buffed to damage cap I think we can discount.
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As a scrapper I totally ignore any blaster that says that, after all how many whines did scrappers hear about being able to ride their damage cap? I can tell you many many more then I care to recall.
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Heaven forbid the AT that is described as the squishy damage AT actually have some delusions of a damage advantage!
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Are you honestly whining that tanks outdamage blasters? Be real. It's not that close. Also don't forget a blasters defense according to the devs is distance, you can strike from it and others can't. If you choose to melee with melee ATs you still do more damage but they should have a clear advantage over you for doing so.
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Poor Bone Smasher ; ; I'm going to miss dropping toggles with ye.
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They should have never touched Toggle Drops on Dominators.
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What they really should not have done is introduced PvP into CoX...
Total Focus is a hold, right?
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I personally don't buy the "Melee ATs should have to rely on breakfrees just as much as others" line of thought, because quite frankly, I think my status protection and defenses SHOULD be reliable, I spent a power slot on it. The defense sets are why we DONT get reliable ranged attacks, we DONT get blaster level damage, we DONT get unresistable damage in our attacks.
Again, I state, if there were tanker/brute/scrapper attacks that randomly disabled Blasters ability to blast in their primaries, Defenders ability to buff and existing buffs, and Controllers ability to Hold, players of those three ATs would be screaming bloody murder.
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*SCREAMS BLOODY MURDER*
Tanks, Brutes and Scrappers do in fact have just such attacks. Hold, Disorient, and now Sleep (Electric brutes). Not every single set gets them, but then not all Blaster sets get them either (Fire/ and /Fire spring to mind). If you choose to build your scrapper/tank/brute for PVP, you have the choice of selecting a powerset with 100% chance of status infliction, which will disable - and to be precise, not randomly at all, but 100% of the time! - your opponent's powers completely.
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But its fine for a Melee ATs powersets to be worthless in PVP? That viewpoint is utter garbage, IMO.
And yes, Im aware that a status affect CAN negate the abilities of the ATs I listed above, however there are also multiple buffs and of course breakfrees. There is however, no buff, or inspiration, that prevents toggle drops.
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If the blaster does not have a breakfree in hand you WILL beat them a very high percent of the time, with one of the many sets for these ATs that has a status effect. And again, your stance boils down to, that is just as it should be. You shouldn't be bothered to carry breakfrees because hey, you took a power pick that makes you immune to every status effect anyone can try to stick on you. That's a good example of a double standard if I ever saw one.
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I love the fact that you "Screamed bloody murder" and then left in the quote where I already mentioned why what you would scream bloody murder about wouldn't exactly apply.
But just to repeat it.
Buffs/Breakfrees prevent status effects.
Nothing prevents toggle drops. Which means, I can lose the use of my powers and have no way to counteract it/prevent it. It's completely unexcusable.
And.. *ahem*
*SCREAMS BLOODY MURDER!!!111 OMGBBQ!*
Yes, I do believe that having a status effect prevention toggle should prevent status effects!
ITS EXACTLY WHY I TOOK THE POWER.
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The phrase is choose to close to take advantage of toggle drops not had too.
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Since we're discussing toggle dropping, I feel pretty comfortable with the expression "has to close to melee to take advantage of toggle drops". I don't know of any ranged toggle drop powers.
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Really? Well lets see. Fire can ride his resist caps to S/L how exactly? Oh yeah he can constantly pop sturdies because outside of that it aint happening, he isn't even getting all that close even with everything he could have.
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Hey, nice that you mentioned Firey Aura, since you were saying tanks/brutes only get one damage selfbuff. Fiery Embrace...
According to Buffy, a Fire tank can reach 90% S/L resist with just Fire Shield and Tough. She may be mistaken, I don't know. I do think that qualifies as "very near".
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Ice....your talking resists so skip it.
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Since Ice is particularly good at PVP by all accounts, yeah you'd probably better skip it.
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Stone.....well with granite he can but toggle droppers can't drop that anyway and he takes a -recharge and -damage to even do that never mind the -speed.
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I think we can stipulate that Stone trades the obvious best choice for PVM for the obvious worst choice for PVP. I have two Granite tanks myself and I don't have a problem with that. The downsides of Stone in PVP are not limited just to the heavy drawbacks of Granite, in pretty much all ways it's a terrible PVP set. Then again, there are many Blaster builds that are pretty bad at PVP too (*/dev or */fire e.g.)
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Inv .... ah this must be the tank you speak of after all if he has 3 slotted for resist TI + Uy + Tough + RPD then he can indeed do this, but he shouldn't be able to rely on three of them right? He needs two powers from a power pool and three from his primary to achieve this and yet he shouldn't actually be able to expect it to work, why is that?
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By the same token, a blaster foregoes practically all defense and accepts small hitpoints for the ability to hit people for big damage - and yet some tank with a pretty standard PVM build can reduce his damage by 65-70% or so. He is absolutely required to carry a large number of breakfrees to keep from being regularly flattened. Shouldn't the blaster expect their powers to work too?
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So tanks can run if they don't want to fight you....ok so. You can run from tanks as well, worst case you need to hit a breakfree to do so.
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And the reason you can't eat a breakfree yourself is...
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(re: kiting) Yes both have to. Not the tank is dead at range so he must close but if he does his defenses will likely all be negated....how is that fair?
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Why will his defenses likely all be negated? You're referring to the toggle drop hitting your status toggle, and then inflicting a sleep/disorient status. Guess what - eat a breakfree and that doesn't happen.
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Being buffed to damage cap I think we can discount.
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As a scrapper I totally ignore any blaster that says that, after all how many whines did scrappers hear about being able to ride their damage cap? I can tell you many many more then I care to recall.
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Look, you can't have it both ways. If the blaster is pegged at their damage cap, then you are pegged at your resist cap and have breakfrees etc. I don't care what discussions you might have had in the past with other people. I'm examining what you're saying now in this thread - which appears to be that nobody but Blasters carries any inspirations or uses them in PVP.
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Are you honestly whining that tanks outdamage blasters? Be real. It's not that close.
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Neither is the difference in hitpoints, resistance, defense, or status protection.
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Also don't forget a blasters defense according to the devs is distance, you can strike from it and others can't. If you choose to melee with melee ATs you still do more damage but they should have a clear advantage over you for doing so.
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I may misunderstand you, but you appear to be saying scrapper/tank/brute should just plain old "have a clear advantage" if the blaster enters melee. Why? Because you just like winning?
Sorry for the excessive quoting, I generally hate to do it but I didn't see a way to make this post make sense without the quoted bits for context.
edit: fixed broken bracket
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I love the fact that you "Screamed bloody murder" and then left in the quote where I already mentioned why what you would scream bloody murder about wouldn't exactly apply.
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I am glad that you love it. Just because you said pre-emptively that it wouldn't apply, doesn't mean that it does not apply. It is "inexcusable" that my blaster must carry breakfrees dammit!
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Which means, I can lose the use of my powers and have no way to counteract it/prevent it. It's completely unexcusable.
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The entire point of toggle dropping in the first place is to - duh - drop your toggles and make you more vulnerable. You still have the advantages of high hitpoints, high damage output, and for the great majority of melee builds, some uninteruptible form of selfheal/max hp buff. This is outside of Tier 9 clicks that can't be detoggled anyway, and passives.
It's not like you're a Dominator and all your opponent has to do is eat one inspiration to completely neutralize your primary powerset.
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It is "inexcusable" that my blaster must carry breakfrees dammit!
[/ QUOTE ]But it was fine when Tanks, Brutes and Scrappers, who spent a power on their mez protection, had to carry them as well?
Its funny that you have no problem with toggle dropping rendering most melee AT's entire secondary/primary useless. And that it seems Blasters are supposed to be able to out-melee the melee AT's.
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Blasters very probably need some help in PVP....
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They don't. They can make 1200 of my HP disappear well before my brute can "smash" away whatever trivial amount of lifebar they are sitting on.