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Its funny that you have no problem with toggle dropping rendering most melee AT's entire secondary/primary useless. And that it seems Blasters are supposed to be able to out-melee the melee AT's.
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Chances for multiple de-toggling is over-powered but instead of retoggling defenses, most of the good tankers and scrappers I've faced off against choose that time to actually attack the blaster and go for a quick knockout.
As for outmeleeing melee classes, I believe the problem is the conception of range vs. melee. Blasters don't have full range attack cycles in the same manner that Scrappers and Tankers have. The Blaster's heavier hitting powers are just outside of melee range. So I don't buy into the whole "out-meleeing" melee class argument. Blasters are a high damage class. Scrappers are supposedly a notch below that because they trade some damage for defense.
That wasn't my point - it was that the opinion expressed by many, that scrapper/tank/brute shouldn't have to carry breakfrees because it's inconvenient, is pretty poorly justified when practically everyone else has to do the same to have more than a miniscule chance versus any scrapper/tank/brute with a status-inflicting attack. Heck, it's a challenge for a dominator to kill a tank who is AFK even with the tank's toggles off.
This is also completely aside from the fact that your status protection cannot be realistically dropped by most controllers, dominators, defenders, and many flavors of corruptor.
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Hey, nice that you mentioned Firey Aura, since you were saying tanks/brutes only get one damage selfbuff. Fiery Embrace...
According to Buffy, a Fire tank can reach 90% S/L resist with just Fire Shield and Tough. She may be mistaken, I don't know. I do think that qualifies as "very near".
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Actual quote from Buffy:
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FS (6 SO DamRes), Tough (Fighting Pool) (3 SO DamREs) - Total 90%
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Those are old pre-ED figures. No one can 6 slot a power with the same enhancements anymore and expect it to do a thing and you know that or should. Actual numbers now sit at about 70% to S/L max with tough.
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Since Ice is particularly good at PVP by all accounts, yeah you'd probably better skip it.
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Ice's defense based powers is why it is so good, defense helps negate the power of toggle droppers by not getting hit. Removing toggle droppers helps balance things for the other sets.
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Why will his defenses likely all be negated? You're referring to the toggle drop hitting your status toggle, and then inflicting a sleep/disorient status. Guess what - eat a breakfree and that doesn't happen.
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Really. The vast majority of an Inv tanks resist to S/L comes from one toggle, if that gets hit blam so does half his S/L. But your suggestion is that an AT that has mez resistance needs to enter every melee with a break free running and always keep them up because he shouldn't be able to actually have mez resistance right?
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I'm examining what you're saying now in this thread - which appears to be that nobody but Blasters carries any inspirations or uses them in PVP.
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No but I am saying that someone that comes with mezz protection shouldn't have it just fall off without it being overcome. That an AT that has resistance toggle should be able to count on them actually staying up without some kludge that not only ignores part of his resistance but also makes it so they can be dropped just by getting attacked.
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I may misunderstand you, but you appear to be saying scrapper/tank/brute should just plain old "have a clear advantage" if the blaster enters melee. Why? Because you just like winning?
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Because they are melee specialists and a blaster is not. All they do (with some few exceptions, ie spines) is melee. They should be the best at that. Blasters are the best damage AT in both melee, ranged, and AoE. If they choose to fight a tank in melee they should be at a disavantage since they are effectively ignoring their primary, ignoring your primary is not a reason that mine should be negated by silly toggle drops.
I think entirely too much emphasis is being put on how much of an advantage range is. As has been mentioned, most of the hardest hitting attacks are close; snipe is an exception, but this can be interrupted by damage or losing line of sight.
In addition, with travel powers the same across all archtypes (a blaster cannot outrun a tank, travel powers/slotting being equal), it is sometimes difficult to avoid melee range.
Isn't the reason that a pvp blaster with energy/electric manipulation ignores their primary and attacks with the melee is because their melee attacks are faster and MUCH stronger then the primary attacks?
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I think entirely too much emphasis is being put on how much of an advantage range is. As has been mentioned, most of the hardest hitting attacks are close; snipe is an exception, but this can be interrupted by damage or losing line of sight.
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Could be but still you do get 30% unresistable damage that helps overcome a tanks defenses already do you really need to be able to negate his entire primary?
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Because they are melee specialists and a blaster is not. All they do (with some few exceptions, ie spines) is melee. They should be the best at that. Blasters are the best damage AT in both melee, ranged, and AoE. If they choose to fight a tank in melee they should be at a disavantage since they are effectively ignoring their primary, ignoring your primary is not a reason that mine should be negated by silly toggle drops.
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Few melee-using blasters ever ignore the primaries. I certainly don't on my Fire/Energy. You're mistaken if a Blaster primary attack cycle compares to the secondary of a Scrapper. Take a look at Energy for instance. Power Bolt, Power Blast, Power Burst, Sniper Bolt doesn't quite stack up to the cycle you'll get with the Katana line.
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Anything else you'd like to blame on blasters? Global warming, perhaps? High gas prices?
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Gas Prices need serious nerfs.
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Castle you should really consider this one right here. If you think about it, everyone will be happy afterwards.
Watch:
1.) The Devs nerf gas prices
2.) More money in our pockets
3.) We spend more of our money/time playing CoX
4.) You guys get more money in your pockets
I don't think a nerf has ever had a more win/win situation
So in the end, we should all thanks Blasters for requiring this nerf to gas prices.
That's a question... under the effects of build up and aim... (I guess defiance... basicly a damage cap test.) and strongest blaster single target and AOE. If completely unresisted, how much damage would they do? (add both Melee and Ranged for the single target if possible.)
Then under the same damage cap except with the target with damage resistance, how much damage is done?
Yes, these are serious questions. Now reason for asking for damage cap with the strongest blaster single target and strongest AoE is because that is the peak of blaster damage as it doesn't get any higher then that.
Course I don't know how to measure resistance in the test. I just want to know how much of a diffrence 30% unresisted makes.
It is one thing to argue but the best results only show when people do the testing and provide numbers from those test.
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Thanks for posting the list and numbers, _Castle_. It is appreciated.
That said...Holy crap. My Blaster fire sword went from 100% to 5%?!?!1?!?!?one1!!?!?! Talk about a nerf!
We knew the % was going down, but 95%? This is another solid blow to non /em blasters, who dont have the stuns or high bi's in their secondary. Before when taking on the big boys (brutes, tanks, scraps) I knew I could either drop his status protection and hold him OR at least weaken his resistance and/or defense. Now? I have a 1/20 chance of doing this.
I understand the % had to drop, but to such an extreme hurts non /em blasters who dont have stuns, total focus, and power boost to compensate.
Look at my sig. What do you think will happen to that 60% now? All aboard, going DOWN.
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I know other sets have more (Energy/Elemental) but my Mighty INV tanker only has 25% energy and even less Fire resistances. With unresistable damage do you really need to drop my toggles? So unless your doing S/L which is the only thing i actually resist its going to hurt.
Now fighting a Fire tank with a Fire blaster is not a good choice go pick on an INV tanker. Just like AR blasters should avoid INV tankers and go pick on a Fire/Ice.
Pinnacle
Arch light L50 INV/SS
Psiberia L50 Kin/Psi
Screaming Mentallica L50 Sonic/MM
Infinity
Arc Voltinator L50 SS/Elec
Mind Fire Kinesis L50 Fire/Kin
Flaming Screamer L50 Fire/Sonic
everyone is going on about how this kills the non FOTM blasters in uselessness in PVP. heres a question can anyone name me a FOTM PVP tank? please by all means do so.
also talking about blasters when moving into melee getting status affected. please tell me which tanks can give status in their secondary.
SS - sure KO blow
stone - Yes some big hammer ( dont remember power name)
fire - nothing
axe - nothing
mace - sure has a disoreint, but it is week at best and pitiful dmg means you probably recover before he can kill you anyways.
now combine that with teh ability of toggle drops to completely nullify my primary pool powers and see why not too many tanks do PVP competitively.
These are what I know of...
Super Strenght: Knock Out blow as you mentioned, various knockback/downs and does hand clap do knockback and stun or is it just knock back?
Stone Melee: Knockdown/backs with a couple of powers that can stun and Seismic Smash that can hold
Axe: Knockbacks/ups
Mace: Stun chances, no idea if this has knockback/up as I rarely see it.
Ice: Slows... and a hold I beleive. course RARELY see this set much at all. Not very damaging from what I understand.
Fire... is in the cold... its stright damage so yeah...
Course if you were speaking 100% chance... it would require going into specific powers and I don't have that knowledge...
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These are what I know of...
Super Strenght: Knock Out blow as you mentioned, various knockback/downs and does hand clap do knockback and stun or is it just knock back?
Stone Melee: Knockdown/backs with a couple of powers that can stun and Seismic Smash that can hold
Axe: Knockbacks/ups
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Knockback/up/down/left/right doesn't happen very often in PvP.
And it will only save you a second before you are getting hit again, it also doesn't let you do more damage when they are on the ground.
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Those are old pre-ED figures. No one can 6 slot a power with the same enhancements anymore and expect it to do a thing and you know that or should. Actual numbers now sit at about 70% to S/L max with tough.
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I wasn't certain whether hero planner's numbers were correct, so I went with Buffy's. Like I said, she might have been mistaken. 70% is still "very near" 90%.
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Ice's defense based powers is why it is so good, defense helps negate the power of toggle droppers by not getting hit. Removing toggle droppers helps balance things for the other sets.
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That's nonsense. Your entire point centers around blasters running aim/buildup and whacking you with whatever. Aim/Buildup will punch through any amount of tanker defense, even with outside buffs. I had thought it was generally accepted that Ice tanks do well because of slow, endo drain, and Hibernate.
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But your suggestion is that an AT that has mez resistance needs to enter every melee with a break free running and always keep them up because he shouldn't be able to actually have mez resistance right?
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I'm just offering you a tactic, which you evidently have not thought of and you might find useful. I find it pretty handy on my blaster (considering that if I don't have a breakfree already running I'm going to lose consistently).
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Because they are melee specialists and a blaster is not. All they do (with some few exceptions, ie spines) is melee. They should be the best at that. Blasters are the best damage AT in both melee, ranged, and AoE. If they choose to fight a tank in melee they should be at a disavantage since they are effectively ignoring their primary, ignoring your primary is not a reason that mine should be negated by silly toggle drops.
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Firstly, you are incorrect - blasters can choose to be melee specialists, they just have to divde your hitpoints by three (lower starting health, no dull pain), sacrifice nearly all resists and defense and status protection, and take a very specific couple of choices in movement pool (pretty much just leaping) in order to just get started.
It was never my experience that closing to melee with a smart tank or brute was a sure thing, maybe 50% - which seemed to me to be pretty fair. And when I ran out of breakfrees I pretty much had to leave the zone and buy more. Since I was totally dependent on specific inspirations to even have a 50/50 chance in melee, I think that falls pretty safely into the "I was already at a disadvantage" category.
"They should be the best at that" seems to me to pretty indicate what you really want - to rarely lose under any circumstances, unless it's to a scrapper or another tank. I will be happy to meet any all-ranged AT with my tanks, I know for a certainty they won't be killing me unless I just stand there like a bozo and let them.
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everyone is going on about how this kills the non FOTM blasters in uselessness in PVP. heres a question can anyone name me a FOTM PVP tank? please by all means do so.
also talking about blasters when moving into melee getting status affected. please tell me which tanks can give status in their secondary.
SS - sure KO blow
stone - Yes some big hammer ( dont remember power name)
fire - nothing
axe - nothing
mace - sure has a disoreint, but it is week at best and pitiful dmg means you probably recover before he can kill you anyways.
now combine that with teh ability of toggle drops to completely nullify my primary pool powers and see why not too many tanks do PVP competitively.
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I would think that /mace has a better chance to drop toggles now on a blaster than other way around. And by that I mean drop all the toggles on said blaster. Have you any idea how long it takes to put Leadership back on for lets say, a defender?
There was a need for change, they just went way too far..
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everyone is going on about how this kills the non FOTM blasters in uselessness in PVP. heres a question can anyone name me a FOTM PVP tank? please by all means do so.
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Ice/EM...
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also talking about blasters when moving into melee getting status affected. please tell me which tanks can give status in their secondary.
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Stone has a 100% disorient (Fault) and another 100% hold (Seismic Smash). There is a fair amount of %chance disorient on the mallets.
Axe and Fire true enough don't have status effects. On the other hand they have pretty good burst damage, particularly Axe.
Are ya sure? I ask because everyone but my tanker has been knocked on their back side a bit there. And usualy, unless you are running hover or something, that second is enough to throw a second attack which and possibly a third if the victum of the knockback is throwing their own attack in retaliation. (I wish I could spell >_<
Trying to PVP with no knockback protection is stupid. I encourage everyone to try it, you will be crushed by just about every AT that decides to pick on you. It's particularly humiliating to get Galed around over and over. Only someone who hasn't actually tried PVPing with no knockback protection would suggest it.
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I wasn't certain whether hero planner's numbers were correct, so I went with Buffy's. Like I said, she might have been mistaken. 70% is still "very near" 90%.
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You've got to be kidding. 70% means your taking 3 times the damage as you are at 90%. Sorry but that isn't close that's just silly.
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That's nonsense. Your entire point centers around blasters running aim/buildup and whacking you with whatever. Aim/Buildup will punch through any amount of tanker defense, even with outside buffs. I had thought it was generally accepted that Ice tanks do well because of slow, endo drain, and Hibernate.
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Ice Tanks do well because not everyone has two build up powers. Their slow is good no doubt and their damage debuff helps but the whole not being hit means no secondary effects is rather a big deal and toggle dropping is a secondary effect. Remember there are ATs besides blasters that use toggle drops.
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I'm just offering you a tactic, which you evidently have not thought of and you might find useful. I find it pretty handy on my blaster (considering that if I don't have a breakfree already running I'm going to lose consistently).
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No your telling me I shouldn't really have mez protection from powers that grant it. Oh and don't be such an xxxhat.
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Since I was totally dependent on specific inspirations to even have a 50/50 chance in melee,
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So you want 50/50 in melee and a 100% chance at range....sorry no. Prehaps winning all the time and never being at a disadvantage is fine for blasters but in general that's hardly balanced. Prehaps you might have to accept that you don't always have the advantage and that prehaps the primary power pools of tanks should actually work.
Good. It is no fun, waiting and working to get a power, only to see it go down the drain in less than 10 seconds in the arena. As a level 50, I would like to fight with my armor that I have worked so hard and long to get. What good are the armors to the squishies if they are constantly detoggled. Why even get them? What good is a Tank except to sit there and retoggle for 10 min, mine seems to spend his time doing that instead of fighting. What good is my Defenders or Blasters except to toggle up and then after being detoggled to fight as if they never got them anyway...
It is about time! The event should not be a "detoggle fest" for some types to have all the fun.
I am Airman America... Super Hero... and I approve this message!
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everyone is going on about how this kills the non FOTM blasters in uselessness in PVP. heres a question can anyone name me a FOTM PVP tank? please by all means do so.
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Ice/EM...
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also talking about blasters when moving into melee getting status affected. please tell me which tanks can give status in their secondary.
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Stone has a 100% disorient (Fault) and another 100% hold (Seismic Smash). There is a fair amount of %chance disorient on the mallets.
Axe and Fire true enough don't have status effects. On the other hand they have pretty good burst damage, particularly Axe.
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ice/em would be the closest, but last time i looked at the pvp test center league there wans't a single tank in the group. thay may have changed recently as i dont pay much attention to it.
it is sad to begin with that i can go into warburg and call out the best PVP group on Champion and the team that they bring out doesn't have single melee person on it. all blaster, defenders and controllers. how is that even remotely balanced in pvp.
I know that a couple members on their larger teams are spine regen scrappers, but its sad that an 8 man team has no melee at all. all due to toggle dropping as it is useless to try to pvp if your resetting toggles 90% of the time
hmm wasn't aware of the hold for stone, so you have me there, but as good as my axe burst dmg is, it no where compares to the burst dmg of say an ice or fire blaster. let alone the big hitters from energy.
just to specify toggle drops needed to be lessened for sure. did they go to far with the #'s probably, i see them moving up a bit eventually
<<Ice: Slows... and a hold I beleive. course RARELY see this set much at all. Not very damaging from what I understand. >>
Dont forget ice patch, anyone without knockback\knockup resistance is pretty much hosed once IP gets laid down.
Nerf Blaster Controllers!!!!
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Trying to PVP with no knockback protection is stupid. I encourage everyone to try it, you will be crushed by just about every AT that decides to pick on you. It's particularly humiliating to get Galed around over and over. Only someone who hasn't actually tried PVPing with no knockback protection would suggest it.
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Well that's very disappointing...
So if you have no status protection, pvp is pointless
If you don't have knockback protection, pvp is pointless
If you don't have high burst damage, pvp is pointless...
If you don't have any form of stacked perception, then you will be nothing more then stalker bait.
The more I read.... the more I push the pvp plate away. Potential enjoyment shrinks the more I find out. I guess its nice to know that the only way for someone to get any enjoyment out of it is to play someone elses toon.
<<It is about time! The event should not be a "detoggle fest" for some types to have all the fun. >>
I, and many others, agree. The point isn't "100% is just fine! WTH are you doing Devs?!!?" The point is "without a dependable source of toggle drop, my chances to win are marginal, at best. 22\5% is to low"
This nerf is almost exactly what the Devs did to End drain. Even though they promised us End Drain would shine in PvP, it was nerfed to hell, mostly because an opponent with no end cant fight back, not much fun for PvP. Similar to end drain, the nerf here goes to far. It keeps the mechanics in the game so these devs who are far removed from the playing experience can say "look they still have a chance to drop toggles! all is well." just like they say "look they can still drain endurence! all is well."
Anyways, i think most of the complaints are saying the nerf was to much, not that the nerf shouldn't have happened.
Nerf Blaster Controllers!!!!
I did find toggle dropping a bit unfair, but looking at the new numbers, I think that this change was a bit one-sided. It doesn't seem to bring toggle dropping in line so much as it makes it almost a non-factor.
A punch with the ability to take down almost 3 toggles? It was fun while it lasted, but from that to 5% is (imo) way too low.
I wouldn't be opposed to certain powers(FFs, doms, and Assasin strike) be brought to maybe 100% for one toggle