My guess on the swipe/strike thing:
Swipe's animation is cooler than strike's. Strike does better damage.
You must choose. Coolness? Or DPS?
I choose coolness.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
Oh and IMHO yea, devs need to DEFINATELY switch swipe and strike around, the animation that is. As strike is just kind of a basic stab, were as swipe has a much cooler look. 
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes! Someone who agrees with me. 
Switch those animations. Why have all the first option attacks have the 1-2 punch? Change it up. Be different. Give it to Strike, the second option!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
SHHHH!!! Don't tell the DEV's that. :P Some of us want it all in one package.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I've been streetfighting some Paragon Protectors in Crey's Folly. I just noticed they still have the old Swipe/Strike/Slash animations.
[ QUOTE ]
I've been streetfighting some Paragon Protectors in Crey's Folly. I just noticed they still have the old Swipe/Strike/Slash animations.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mobs tend to keep the original powers from when the mob type was created. Nemesis still have the original Vengeance and PP's also have the original Unstoppable and MoG AFAIK. Dark Servants and Tsoo Sorcerers have Chill of the Night as well. Sometimes that's an advantage for us, sometimes an advantage for them.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
I just LOVE the anima changes to claws. My attack chain now flows nice and smooth. (PVE attack chain-->focus slash, strike, air sup, then sometimes brawl)(PVP attack chain-->air sup, focus, slash, strike) I now do a little more damage/time, but whats really nice is that there is almost no opening to where they can get up and complete a move against me. I like how the new anima looks to. To me it looks a lot more realistic, as how someone might fight with claws.
Before I begin, it should be noted that I have experience with Claws (Stalker lvl 32), Energy Melee (Tanker 50, Blaster 50, Stalker 40), Martial Arts (Scrapper 50), and Spines (Stalker 30). In addition, I'd like to preface my statement by stating that all the powersets can be effective and enjoyable. Finally, my argument here should not be construed as pro-villain or pro-hero, since both sides of the law have access to this powerset.
Today's discussion focuses on the deficiencies of the Claws power set.
I played my Claws Stalker on Live for a few hours, copied my Stalker over to Test to game some more, and then respecced to intentionally take the first 3 powers (Swipe, Strike, and Slash). In summary, I was underwhelmed, but I need to explain my position. The animations are nice and the DPS is a little faster, but it is no where near the DPS and/or utility of its peers (EM, MA, and Spines). To be fair, I never would have any problem with any of the Claw's animations, IF THE DAMAGE was commensurate with the activation times.
I understand, for thematic reasons, Claws is supposed to be composed of low-end/quick attacks. However, there is no reason for the set to be anemic. The problem with Claws is that the LOW LEVEL ATTACKS act like other sets LOW LEVEL ATTACKS. Quite simply, if you are going to have a set that is quick and fast, the majority of the attacks should reside around the MEAN of DPS/DPE. If you have low-power attacks and mid-powered attacks, your average is going to reside between mid-to-low. And this doesn't take into consideration the penalty of doing the commonly reisted dmg in the game (Lethal).
For example, other powersets, such as Spines, EM, and MA have have low DPS attacks (LOW LEVEL) and high DPS attack (HIGH LEVEL). However, the lower level attacks of Claws are relatively the same DPS/DPE, but Claw's high level attacks are not competitive with other powerset's high-level DPS/DPE. Furthermore, the utility of Spines (Toxic/Poison Dmg, Holds, -Recharge) or Energy Melee (Energy Dmg, Disorients) or MA (-Spd, Immobilize, Knockback, Disorient), widens this gap even further.
Am I stating that Claws is unplayable? NO
I am stating that any improvement to Claws needs to take a holistic approach, not just speeding up the lowest-level attacks' animation times. There are power-pool attacks (Boxing, Air Superiority) that offer equivalent DPS/DPE to the low-end Claw Attacks. Furthermore, with powers like Hasten and Quickness, plus the prevalence of using Recharge-Enhancements after ED, any power with a recharge time under 20 seconds can easily be chained. At the higher levels, the benefits of Claws quietly fade. Claws is neither the king of any particular category (range, AOE, DPS, utility, debuffs, etc.) nor is it the jack-of-all trades.
So what are the benefits of Claws again? Fast attacks with Low End, Quick Recharges, Knockdown, and lower Activation Times for the lower powers. In my humble opinion, these benefits make the power set different, but less effective than its peers at higher levels. Take a claws scrapper/stalker and engage any OJ target. It took me over 12 shots to take down an OJ Freak Tanker with my Claws Scrapper (using BU+AS as an opener), while the same target can be two-shotted by my EM (AS not necessary), or four-shoted by Spines (using AS). In general combat (no AS), Spines, MA and EM shine just as brightly... they can do a heck of lot more than burst dmg.
In summary, I applaud the DEV TEAM for changing the animations, but please continue to evaluate the ENTIRE powerset (debuffs, dmg-type, DPS of competitive peers, etc.).
QUICK AND CHEAP FIX
Add +1.25 BI to all the Claw Attacks and it might present a compelling argument to take the set besides thematic/graphical reasons.
BETTER IDEA
Add a +1-2 BI DoT to ALL Claw Attacks (represent bleeding) <and> give it the cheesy +5% ACC bonus (redraw time, although minimal, is still present).
Cheers,
SUN
[ QUOTE ]
QUICK AND CHEAP FIX
Add +1.25 BI to all the Claw Attacks and it might present a compelling argument to take the set besides thematic/graphical reasons.
.
BETTER IDEA
Add a +1-2 BI DoT to ALL Claw Attacks (represent bleeding) <and> give it the cheesy +5% ACC bonus (redraw time, although minimal, is still present).
[/ QUOTE ]
so your ideas are to either get rid of the perks that Claws has (20% less end and rchrg) or to make Claws into Spines?
I just don't think you have enough experience with the set. You've played it as a stalker which, IMO, won't give you a good picture of the set at all since the predominant stalker playstyle is to hit and run and rely on burst damage, which is not what claws is about. I assume this about you because of your first suggestion which would make Claws better for this type of playstyle. It would also require the devs to remove the 20% discounts it gets, making it play more like EM and MA.
then your other suggestion essentially makes Claws into Spines, but with Knockdown instead of slow/immob.
The set, on test, does what the devs want it too. All the old time players have attested to their increased enjoyment of the set and are having a lot more fun. That's what it's all about in the long run anyway. Honestly, the only compelling argument for the devs should be thematic/graphical reasons. Screw the numbers, which in this case also do support the case that in higher levels Claws will do excellent DPS.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
So your ideas are to either get rid of the perks that Claws has (20% less end and rchrg) or to make Claws into Spines? -Fanboy
--------------
How is 20% endurance or recharge a true benefit compared to the other sets. My point is, the other sets do more than 20% dmg, offer better debuffs/utility, recharge is nullified by Hasten or slotting one recharge (more than enough slots post ED), and Stamina easily compensates in PvE/PvP.
In comparison, my attacks are all maxed Dmg. in Claws, and I have room for 2 ACC and what... recharge? endurance? don't slot it? The point is, the benefits of Claws has an inherent disadvantage because of power pools and ED (no one has a lack of slots and no in their right mind 3-slots recharge or endurance on dmg. attacks).
After reading some of the feedback and comments on the boards I think the people that play Claws Scrappers/Stalkers are delerious... no not Delerious, more like Raw. To quote Eddie Murphy from Raw:
"This was it. This was the feeling I've
been searching for. I finally made love."
You didn't make love.
It just felt real good. You know why?
Because you waited
five months for it.
If you're starving and somebody
throw you a cracker, you gonna be like this:
"[censored], that's the best cracker
I ever ate in my life!"
"That ain't no regular cracker, was it?
What was that, a Saltine?
"[censored], that was delicious."
"That wasn't no Saltine. That was...
That was a Ritz. That wasn't a Ritz?"
"God, that was the best cracker
I ever ate in my life."
[ QUOTE ]
How is 20% endurance or recharge a true benefit compared to the other sets. My point is, the other sets do more than 20% dmg, offer better debuffs/utility, recharge is nullified by Hasten or slotting one recharge (more than enough slots post ED), and Stamina easily compensates in PvE/PvP.
.
In comparison, my attacks are all maxed Dmg. in Claws, and I have room for 2 ACC and what... recharge? endurance? don't slot it? The point is, the benefits of Claws has an inherent disadvantage because of power pools and ED (no one has a lack of slots and no in their right mind 3-slots recharge or endurance on dmg. attacks).
[/ QUOTE ]
And claws doesn't need those slots. And claws gets the full benefit of those bonus from level one whereas the others wait till SOs are full slotted. And claws doesn't have to take and slot hasten or stamina or any of those pool powers that are not required at all, giving claws more slots for secondary effects or for defensive slotting.
claws doesn't play into the standard forumites vision of the game and how attack sets "should" perform and be slotted. nothing anyone has ever posted has convinced me that this is a bad thing.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
[ QUOTE ]
"God, that was the best cracker
I ever ate in my life."
[/ QUOTE ]
My highest toon is a DM/Reg Scrapper just about to ding 40. My second highest toon is an Inv/EM Tank at 38. I have a vague concept of melee attacks other than Claws, thanks. Improving the low-level attacks will have a big benefit to DPS, especially at lower levels. Also, perma-FollowUp plays a big role in keeping DPS up.
The only place where Claws really suffers compared to DM and EM, in my experience, is the fact that so many mobs are highly resistant to Lethal. I just took a L35 Claw/Reg through the Freak respec and I felt close to useless against the Freak Tank bosses.
"And claws doesn't need those slots. And claws gets the full benefit of those bonus from level one whereas the others wait till SOs are full slotted. And claws doesn't have to take and slot hasten or stamina or any of those pool powers that are not required at all, giving claws more slots for secondary effects or for defensive slotting." -Fanboy
-------------------------
Having an advantage at lvls 1-24 does not justify late-game inefficiencies or weaknesses. In addition, the benefits gained by Stamina are Hastern are FAR greater than the inherent benefits of Claws.
Stamina UNSLOTTED provides a 25% bonus to end recovery. 3-slotted with SOs that number soars to 50% (an equivalent option to the inherent benefits of Claws). Sure, you could avoid Stamina, but having a 50% increase to Stamina recovery is beneficial to EVERY AT (save Regen and even then some people still take it). Furthermore, HOs basically eliminate any advantages Claws might have, by freeing up even more slots (but that's a different argument).
As for Hasten, the numbers are even more impressive. A 60% increase to recharge, with only a minute of down-time is spectacular. You need approximately two Recharge SOs to match that type of return.
In summary, no one is forced to use Stamina or Hasten, but they do remove the inherent advantages of the Claws set by offering ALL OTHER MELEE SETS access to greater benefits (+recharge and +endurance rec). If there were pool powers that offered +Dmg (above 20%), additional Debuffs, or unresisted dmg features, then Claws could become more competitive within the melee peer group.
However, the truth remains that Claws main bonuses (+recharge and end efficiency) are easily replicated and outclassed, without any external offering (power pools) able to bring Claws up to its peers in dmg, utility, or debuffs. Furthermore, slotting SOs favors Dmg and Acc, while Recharge and Stamina are relegated in importance (both PvE and PvP).
My arguments are not to homogenize Claws, it's to simply illustrate why it is doomed to mediocrity. Hey, a lot of cars are sold each year that look nice, but have average performance. Some people think those buyers are suckers, but most of the suckers are pleased with their purchase. In the end, the press and car magazines can't change the auto industry or the consumers, but the media has an obligation to point out a substandard offering.
Cheers,
SUN
edit- stupid prepositions
you can't balance the sets around what people can take in power pools. Every AT can take the same power pools, and thus get the same benefit. It doesn't make for un-biased comparisons
[ QUOTE ]
Having an advantage at lvls 1-24 does not justify late-game inefficiencies or weaknesses. In addition, the benefits gained by Stamina are Hastern are FAR greater than the inherent benefits of Claws.
[/ QUOTE ]
1. you're the only one saying it has late-game inefficiencies or weaknesses. I don't feel that particularly right now and I know that some of the problems I do have with the set will be gone in i7
2. Why should sets be designed around pool powers? They shouldn't and they aren't. if you really believe this, I'll expect you to start a thread about how overpowered Broadsword is because it makes better use of hasten and stamina than the other sets. By making the suggestions you have, you're essentially saying that in light of the benefits of pool powers, any powersets that off a similar benefit need to be redesigned. that's not how it works.
[ QUOTE ]
In summary, no one is forced to use Stamina or Hasten, but they do remove the inherent advantages of the Claws set by offering ALL OTHER MELEE SETS access to greater benefits (+recharge and +endurance rec). If there were pool powers that offered +Dmg (above 20%), additional Debuffs, or unresisted dmg features, then Claws could become more competitive within the melee peer group.
.
However, the truth remains that Claws main bonuses (+recharge and end efficiency) are easily replicated and outclassed, without any external offering (power pools) able to bring Claws up to its peers in dmg, utility, or debuffs. Furthermore, slotting SOs favors Dmg and Acc, while Recharge and Stamina are relegated in importance (both PvE and PvP).[/
[/ QUOTE ]
Claws does get a very nice benefit from hasten. Its longest recharging powers are all AoEs. I don't think I need to remind anyone of how efficient and powerfully useful AoEs are in this game.
Any bonus that the other sets get from Stamina is also useful to a Claws scrapper. A Claws scrapper can afford to run more toggles than any of the other sets, save DM. A claws/regen scrapper will not run out of end if slotted right and played correctly.
I strongly disagree that claws is lacking good buffs/debuffs and utility. What other set has a perma dmg buff that is worth more than an SO? None. Follow Up provides a 37.5% dmg buff that can easily be made perma. It also has a 10% tohit buff that is numerically equal to the combination of (+5% acc + -5%def) that the swords get. Spines and DM get no inherent acc. MA gets 5%. MA's effects lose their effectiveness where Claws becomes strong. MA can't reliably stunlock a boss. The knockdown and knockback of Focus and Shockwave are the most consistant and useful secondary effects in the AT. Claws is the safer against Bosses than any of the other sets because of them.
[ QUOTE ]
My arguments are not to homogenize Claws, it's to simply illustrate why it is doomed to mediocrity. Hey, a lot of cars are sold each year that look nice, but have average performance. Some people think those buyers are suckers, but most of the suckers are pleased with their purchase. In the end, the press and car magazines can't change the auto industry or the consumers, but the media has an obligation to point out a substandard offering.
[/ QUOTE ]
your analogy is poor because you have not shown that claws is actually performing sub-par. I know this is me being sensitive, but I don't take kindly to being called a sucker either, particularly when you don't have enough experience to back up your claim. You are theorizing that it's sub-par but my experience says it isn't, not once these changes hit. Even on live, Claws is very competitive in the higher levels.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
1. you're the only one saying it has late-game inefficiencies or weaknesses. -Fanboy
------------------------
You've got to be kidding me, I laugh about Claws all the time in my SG/VG. Everyone on our teams snicker about the "special hero" wielding claws.
2. Why should sets be designed around pool powers? They shouldn't and they aren't. -Fanboy
---------------------
Obviously you haven't read the Electric Armor boards lately. Even better, every play a Fire Tanker or a Ninjitsu Stalker?The number one travel power is Super Jump because the Leaping Pool provides protection against knock down. Anyone who is competive in PvE or PvP covers their achilles heel with Power Pools. Come to think of it, almost every stalker in PvP MUST TAKE stealth, grant invis, and/or invis. Why? Because the Power Pools balance the shortcomings of Hide. Come on, to state that the Power Pools don't balance sets is like saying Jack Emmert doesn't like comics.
3. Claws does get a very nice benefit from hasten. -Fan Boy
--------------------
Stop it, you're making me laugh. First off, it is an ARC not a true AOE (just nearby attackers, 2-3 on avg.). Secondly the AOE dmg. is low: a 2.7 BI and a 4.7 BI and no where near as good as Spines at 6.4 BI, 4.0 BI, 3.3 BI AOEs.
4. I strongly disagree that claws is lacking good buffs/debuffs and utility. What other set has a perma dmg buff that is worth more than an SO? -Fan Boy
-----------------------
Um, Super Strength has this nifty power called Rage, have you heard of it? 80% dmg and 50% accuracy.... not too bad, huh. Also, alternating between BU and AIM provides superior benefits to Follow Up with an overlap of only 14 secs. Finally, only Scrappers have Follow-Up, but I personally believe for PvP BU is better anyways.
5. A claws/regen scrapper will not run out of end if slotted right and played correctly.
-------------
Um, any set that is /regen will rarely run out of end if slotted correctly. Come on, the benefits from Claws on the DPE is scale is negligible. You make is sound as if Claws DPE is 50% less than its peers, with the same DPS. Remember to generate the same DPS, Claws must recycle through its attacks multiple times and the Claws attacks, even on the low end are 3.3, 4.5, 5.2, and 13.5. Compared to a real dog like Broad Sword at: 8.5, 5.2, 8.5, and 4.3. The averages are not far off one another, but the dmg. certainly is.
6. -I don't take kindly to being called a sucker either, particularly when you don't have enough experience to back up your claim. -Fan Boy
-------------------
Are you familiar with the term "wanton ignorance." How much time do you have to spend with a dog to know its a dog? Come on, you can't possibly tell me that Claws is even close to its peers in either PvE or PvP. If you feel I haven't shown you enough evidence, please PM me and we can log onto test and I will kindly demonstrate the sucktacular aspects of Claws in either PvE or PvP (lvls 40-50).
Cheers,
SUN
too bad my claws/regen stalker doesnt have follow up
he doesnt get quick recovery either 
both sets are gimped versions of their scrapper counterparts, and yet a stalker is supposed to be about quick kills with a few attacks
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously you haven't read the Electric Armor boards lately. Even better, every play a Fire Tanker or a Ninjitsu Stalker?
[/ QUOTE ]
i have been in that thread, alot actually. The argument is over whether or not the goodies outweigh the costs (-kb, -immob) and side effect of "forcing" people into a particular travel power. Complete status protection is one set of pluses, partial status protection plus exotic effects is another. It's a trade off. I really don't want to drag this into this thread because the electric armour thread is doing a fine job of kicking this particular horse.
Suffice to say, my view of the game and my expectations of powersets are drastically different from the average powergamer. Considering your remarks about laughing with your buddies, I feel fairly confident calling you that. In fact, pretty much all of your responses and your amusement stem from the fact that your expectations are much different than mine. Part of your dissatisfaction with Claws, and no doubt a bunch of other sets, is that what you expect and what the devs have envisioned, is radically different. I get it, I used to think that way too. I just don't anymore.
[ QUOTE ]
Stop it, you're making me laugh. First off, it is an ARC not a true AOE (just nearby attackers, 2-3 on avg.). Secondly the AOE dmg. is low: a 2.7 BI and a 4.7 BI and no where near as good as Spines at 6.4 BI, 4.0 BI, 3.3 BI AOEs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Eviscerate is an arc, the same size as Ripper in fact. I notice you didn't make that ARC comment about ripper. Shockwave, also an arc, has the same size cone as Throw Spines. Both cover a huge amount of ground and it is not difficult to max out my target limit when using it. Convenient that you leave out the 3rd claw aoe, spin. Also convenient that you quote the spines numbers when taking into account the full 5 ticks of toxic damage that is not a guarantee and not a common occurance. Anyway, this is besides the point because nothing in spines has anything to do with the fact that Hasten lets Claws use its AoE's more often. That is a fact and numbers in other sets do not affect that.
[ QUOTE ]
Um, Super Strength has this nifty power called Rage, have you heard of it? 80% dmg and 50% accuracy.... not too bad, huh. Also, alternating between BU and AIM provides superior benefits to Follow Up with an overlap of only 14 secs. Finally, only Scrappers have Follow-Up, but I personally believe for PvP BU is better anyways.
[/ QUOTE ]
super strength. great. i'll go right out and create a SS/SR scrapper. oh, wait. That's a tanker powerset and we're talking about scrappers. My bad. It'd be silly of me to compare outside that AT like that. It's a good thing I stopped before I stuck my foot in my mouth.
But at least I can take out my BS/Dark scrapper and alternate between build up and aim to really kill stuff! Oh, darnit. There I go again making comparisons to other ATs that have no bearing on whether or not Claws does well for a scrapper or stalker. Phew, close call!
PvP. Like i said before, PvP is all about burst damage which is not what Claws is built for, much to the resentment of many a pvper out there. But in PvE, Follow Up will provide a greater damage and tohit buff over time than Build Up. That's another fact. Claws effectively runs around with 4 Dmg SOs slotted while the other scrappers have 3. That most definitely adds up in the long run.
[ QUOTE ]
Um, any set that is /regen will rarely run out of end if slotted correctly. Come on, the benefits from Claws on the DPE is scale is negligible. You make is sound as if Claws DPE is 50% less than its peers, with the same DPS. Remember to generate the same DPS, Claws must recycle through its attacks multiple times and the Claws attacks, even on the low end are 3.3, 4.5, 5.2, and 13.5. Compared to a real dog like Broad Sword at: 8.5, 5.2, 8.5, and 4.3. The averages are not far off one another, but the dmg. certainly is.
[/ QUOTE ]
My point was that a claws/anything will use less end when played well than the other primaries. Regen's just the clear example of that.
Also, Those are the old numbers. The first four claws attacks, right now, are 2.9, 4.1, 5.5(slash used to be 5.9, you were a bit off) and 9.1. And by the way, those 4 Broadsword attacks all have a lower DPE than the claws attacks, by an average of 25% and also have a longer animation time, by about half a second on average. And claws has a pbaoe in there too which can and does hit more people than slice. All in all, it looks pretty nice to me. The individual attacks might be lower dmg, but over time? i'll take claws.
[ QUOTE ]
Are you familiar with the term "wanton ignorance." How much time do you have to spend with a dog to know its a dog? Come on, you can't possibly tell me that Claws is even close to its peers in either PvE or PvP. If you feel I haven't shown you enough evidence, please PM me and we can log onto test and I will kindly demonstrate the sucktacular aspects of Claws in either PvE or PvP (lvls 40-50).
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, that's pretty much exactly what I've been trying to tell you. I have a feeling that I'm beating my head against a wall here though. Look, it's pretty clear that regardless of what I say, you are of a very different viewpoint. I really don't think you or people who share your particular view would really ever think that claws isn't "teh gimp" and "sucktacular", which btw, is a great word. It describes my job perfectly. I'm going to steal that one from ya.
I've played the set for a long time and I know that in the game, with these changes on test, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Claws except for the fact that it doesn't play like how some people want it to because it doesn't fit very well into the myopic view of gameplay that lots of people have developed. It's shame that people let their misconceptions get in the way of fun and engaging gameplay.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
to get back to the actual topic of the Thread, I'm still doing the happy dance over the new animations. The set plays a lot faster and it's much more fun. Thanks Devs and thanks Castle for twisting Geko's arm to get this stuff done. I'm really looking forward to when this issue is live. I haven't said that in quite a while. 
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
[ QUOTE ]
super strength. great. i'll go right out and create a SS/SR scrapper. oh, wait. That's a tanker powerset and we're talking about scrappers. My bad. It'd be silly of me to compare outside that AT like that. It's a good thing I stopped before I stuck my foot in my mouth.
But at least I can take out my BS/Dark scrapper and alternate between build up and aim to really kill stuff! Oh, darnit. There I go again making comparisons to other ATs that have no bearing on whether or not Claws does well for a scrapper or stalker. Phew, close call!
PvP. Like i said before, PvP is all about burst damage which is not what Claws is built for, much to the resentment of many a pvper out there. But in PvE, Follow Up will provide a greater damage and tohit buff over time than Build Up. That's another fact. Claws effectively runs around with 4 Dmg SOs slotted while the other scrappers have 3. That most definitely adds up in the long run.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the difference in opinion between the two of you can be summed up with the fact that you're speaking from an entirely Scrapper persepctive. Which is fine if all we're talking about is Scrappers but that's not the case; we're talking about the Claws set, which two ATs have. I can't speak for the effectiveness of the new Claws on Scrappers so I believe you when you say it's now an excellent set for them, especially with Follow Up providing a near constant damage buff. Stalkers of course don't have access to such a buff and coupled with a much lower AT base damage, I feel the overall damage of the set is still somewhat subpar, even over time.
I think the problem is a function of trying to keep the sets as identical as possible without taking specific AT needs into consideration. There's certainly precident in this game for the Devs to assign different damage values to otherwise identical attacks that show up in sets in different ATs. For example, unless I'm off on my AT modifiers, Thunder Strike has been assigned a lower damage value for Brutes than for Blasters even taking the AT modifiers into account. This is fine. Similarly, and just as an example, why couldn't Eviscerate be assigned a bit higher damage value for Stalkers given that they lack Follow Up and Spin and have a lower base damage anyway? I see no reason why the two sets couldn't be adjusted a bit to address individual AT needs.
I believe all your posts that Claws is fine... for Scrappers. That doesn't necessarily mean it's fine for Stalkers and I'm somewhat bewildered that they need to be identical save for the two powers that were taken out of the Stalker set when one of those powers has such a large impact on what makes the set a damage over time machine.
[ QUOTE ]
to get back to the actual topic of the Thread, I'm still doing the happy dance over the new animations. The set plays a lot faster and it's much more fun. Thanks Devs and thanks Castle for twisting Geko's arm to get this stuff done. I'm really looking forward to when this issue is live. I haven't said that in quite a while.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd also like to say here that I like the changes that were put in, even though I think it still leaves the Stalker version a bit lacking. I'll gladly take any improvement to none. I still reserve the right to make suggestions that address Claws Stalker specific issues, though.
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
[ QUOTE ]
I believe all your posts that Claws is fine... for Scrappers. That doesn't necessarily mean it's fine for Stalkers and I'm somewhat bewildered that they need to be identical save for the two powers that were taken out of the Stalker set when one of those powers has such a large impact on what makes the set a damage over time machine.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've got a level 40 claws stalker as well. I have also tested with him, it warburg. he uses less end, had a tighter attack chain(i already had slash) and doesn't need to rest as much. Shockwave is more of a crowd control than an attack for my stalker and now it recharges faster and is cheaper. So I'm also a little safer than before. I like the changes very much for my stalker.
as i already said, the problem people with claws is that it is not Energy Melee or Broadsword. People like burst damage and want big numbers. That's not Claws. So then we get into a discussion like this every few weeks.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
"as i already said, the problem people with claws is that it is not Energy Melee or Broadsword. People like burst damage and want big numbers. That's not Claws. So then we get into a discussion like this every few weeks." -Fan Boy
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This is the problem, you believe that because a set costs less end, it should be less effective in combat. I don't agree and I believe Claws could easily be a set that provides MEDIUM DMG, through quick, efficient attacks. In its present state, especially for the Stalker, it is lacking. To make myself clear, so Fan Boy doesn't attempt to discard any counterpoint as an attempt to rebadge Claws in BS or EM, Claws needs consistency in dmg. starting from its lvl 1 powers.
Lets look at EM... the classic burst dmg is (and there are more efficient chains):
ET (12.66 BI), BS (4.556), EP (2.777), and TF (9.889) = 30 BI in about 6.5 seconds
Lets look at Claws (for Stalker - this way we have BU as the control for both sets):
Swipe (1.944), Strike (2.778), Slash (3.778? - testing shows its not much more), Focus (4.556), Eviscerate (4.722) = BI 17.5 in 7.34 seconds
For giggles, EM could add in Air Superiority or Boxing (or a Power Pool attack) as it's fifth attack and it would have TWICE THE DPS. In addition, this DOES NOT take into consideration that EM has a stackable Disorient in every attack and does Energy Dmg (among the least resisted in the game). Doing energy Dmg. is the equivalent of gaining a +25-30% dmg. bonus, but that's a different discussion. Let's hang with the base numbers.
In order to do the same dmg. in TWICE the time, Claws needs to recycle through all of its attacks TWICE. OK, so Claws has slower attacks, does less damage, and when you repeat the attack set TWICE, you spend more Endurance! 42 Vs. 50 approximately with 1/2 end discount on current Focus and Eviscerate end numbers even).
So, just in case you don't like to read the paragraphs here are the highlights:
--Claws does HALF the DMG. of Energy Melee
--Claws takes TWICE the TIME to do the same Dmg. as Energy Melee
--Claws uses MORE ENDURANCE to do the same Dmg. as Energy Melee
--Claws does mostly Lethal Dmg., while Energy Melee does on average 50% energy / 50% smash.
--Claws has some nice knockdowns, while Energy Melee has stackable disorients in all attacks
NOW, it is evident that a Claws Stalker is UNABLE to deliver more DPS, DOT, or present better DPE numbers in its current form. This might be fine for some people, but I take exception to this imbalance (and I play all forms of stalkers and scrappers). Perhaps, with Scrappers, the numbers are a bit easier to digest because of Follow Up, but for a Stalker the numbers STINK.
How can we preserve the ideaology of fast attacks, modest damage and lower End? Simple, JUST BUFF THE LOWER END ATTACKS.
What do I mean? Simply bump Swipe, Strike, and Slash to even out the damage curve for Claws Stalkers. Quite simply, there shouldn't be one attack under 3.0 BI for claws. Claws needs a mean around 4.0 BI to compete with other sets (NOT IN BURST DMG, but just delevering plain Damage over TIME).
Presently, Claws dmg. mean is around 3.5 BI (per attack), but that number needs to be raised to at least a 4.0 (especially if doing only Lethal Dmg). By buffing the LOWER ATTACKS, this does not create burst dmg. (like hitting TF and ET in 4 seconds for 20+ BI), but it does allow Claws a chance to catch-up over time.
We can do the numbers all day if you want, but the point remains, Claws (for STALKERS) is lacking and not fulfilling the thematic role of either DPE or DOT.
Cheers,
SUN
My Stalker uses a bit less End (though to be honest End wan't much of a problem for me anyway) and has a tighter attack chain as well, especially if ditch Eviscerate completely (which I'm not really inclined to do since I like it for theme reasons). That's why I made a point in saying I liked the changes. That doesn't mean there aren't still Stalker issues though, and it's not all about 'big numbers'.
The reason Claws works so well as a damage over time set for Scrappers is very much because of Follow Up. Take it away and replace it with Build Up and the damage over time, the strength of the set, suffers. I'm not a math wiz so perhaps someone who is can either verify or disprove this mathmatically, but it seems to me that a quick, low damage set synergizes very well with a near constant 30% damage bonus, as opposed to a 10 second 80% (or is it 100%? I forget for Stalkers) damage bonus every 45 seconds or so. The issue is very much also one of damage over time for a Claws Stalker. That's certainly the way I feel on live, and while it's somewhat better on test I'm still feeling the lack of both a good out of hide spike to leverage my Build Up and a reasonable damage over time to compensate for the lack of a spike. Claws was never designed with Build Up in mind and it shows, in my opinion. I'd be very curious to see how the two sets compare mathmetically and if it would match how it feels to me in game.
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
You are correct, it is obvious the problem for Claws is that it's attacks don't gain from the Follow-Up DoT buff. What happens is the lower level attacks drag the average of Claws to the bottom of the peer group, without Follow Up. If you hit BU and use AS or just use your hardest hitting attacks and then you have a long recharge gap for dmg:
BU alone = 80 seconds (or 6+ attack chains)
BU 3 slotted = 45 seconds (or 3+ attack chains)
BU 3 slotted and Hasten = 34 seconds (or 2+ attack chains)
Heck if you use BU for AS, you will gain a dmg. buff on the next two attacks. This GREATLY favors burst-dmg. sets. Comparing EM to Claws, with both having access to BU you can see the discrepancy:
Lets look at EM... the classic burst dmg is (and there are more efficient chains):
ET (12.66 BI), BS (4.556), EP (2.777), and TF (9.889) = 30 BI in about 6.5 seconds
Lets look at Claws (for Stalker - this way we have BU as the control for both sets):
Swipe (1.944), Strike (2.778), Slash (3.778? - testing shows its not much more), Focus (4.556), Eviscerate (4.722) = BI 17.5 in 7.34 seconds
To fix the problem, as I stated above, Claws for Scrappers needs its first three attacks buffed to bring the mean from 3.5 BI to 4.0+ BI. That is the only way Claws will maintain a consistent DoT, not have burst dmg., remain true to thematic origins, and remain competitive witht the peer group.
Cheers,
SUN
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skipping strike because it now looks like the Boxing punch
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PLease, Please, PLease don't change Strike to the Boxing animation!!!! It has to be the worst looking attack in the game IMO. I love the change to slash, and it would be so kewl to have a left right thing going but the current Boxing animation of strike is terrible.
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Can you trade the animations please, If everyone likes the new animations just swap them Strike for slash That way those that like the new attacks and the increased DPS are happy and I don't have to look at that terrible(IMO) animation every 4 seconds.
(H)Dark/Rad, Rad/Psi, Spine/Regen, Ice/EM, Psi/EM, Earth/FF,
(V)EM/NIN, Bots/FF, Fire/Rad,Fire/Fire, Earth/Fire, Grav/Energy
@Angus.Black
I think Sunchild has stock inthe other sets and is trying to drive the price of claws down Guy apparently has nothing to do but write essays explaining a fairly accepted arguement that claws is less effective than other sets. Thats fair to say, but its far from gimped or teh suck. These new animations help it a whole lot.
I agree, this is a great start, but it makes the early powers MUCH more useful then the end powers, and thats 'bass ackwards'
As it stands now, eviscerate and shockwave are somewhat underwelming.
Devs now need to improve the later powers, and perhaps give a power or two a more 'slashing' animation. Though swipe and slash are still 'slashy' slash in particular looks more like a puncture.
As to spin, I actually am finding it quite useful as a companion for eviscerate. It does as much damage as strike (for me at 32, thats 88dmg with sub-par slotting) and it almost seems to hit more often. The two go together great.
Now it just seams.. where am I going to find the spots to put all these great attacks now!
Oh and IMHO yea, devs need to DEFINATELY switch swipe and strike around, the animation that is. As strike is just kind of a basic stab, were as swipe has a much cooler look.