In case the Devs believe everyone is in LOVE with the new Claws changes, please feel free to visit the Stalkers forum.
Without FU, Claws loses it's defining power and any semblance of competitiveness within its peer group. It is the equivalent of SS losing Rage.... let's be honest, that wouldn't fly. Claws for Scrappers might be grand, but for Stalkers it is at the bottom of the peer group with no claim to fame (king of AOE, Burst Dmg, DPE, DPS, etc.).
PLEASE address the Claws changes S_E_P_A_R_A_T_E_L_Y. The discussion needs to be independent for both Stalkers and Scrappers.
In summary, testing demonstrates:
Scrappers = 
Stalkers = 
Cheers,
SUN
testing demonstrates that Claws != EM
This is not acceptable to most stalkers.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
no, many claws stalkers would like follow up instead of buildup, or some kind of mix between the 2, to actually make claws good at something. want the stalker set with a good ranged attack? spines has you beat. want the set that's great at scrapping? ninja blade has the +def power that'll keep you alive a while longer while doing similar damage
I think that is a not equal sign, so I'll go with it.
My comparative debate isn't just against EM, it is a holistic approach for all Stalker primaries. In its current form, Claws for Stalkers just ends up at the bottom of the barrel without FU.
Claws is not king of any category, and pool powers such as Hasten and Stamina, along with enhancements further this disparity.
Claws for Stalkers has nothing to write home about (to say, Claws isn't the king of any category and hardly averaging at the top of the peer group across the listed categories).
DPE... nope
DPS...nope
Burst Dmg...nope
% Crits from Hidden...nope
Dmg from Hidden...nope
AOE...nope
Ranged...nope
Unique Dmg. type...nope
Utility for PvP.... nope
In summary, this isn't an argument only against EM (which is deemed fine by the Devs), this is an argument to BUFF Claws for Stalkers because it has NOTHING to be proud about... besides looking whicked-supa-cool.
However, having cool graphics shouldn't be a reason for a set to underperform for a specific AT.
Cheers,
SUN
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no, many claws stalkers would like follow up instead of buildup, or some kind of mix between the 2, to actually make claws good at something. want the stalker set with a good ranged attack? spines has you beat. want the set that's great at scrapping? ninja blade has the +def power that'll keep you alive a while longer while doing similar damage
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none of which has a damn thing to do with the animation changes.
the issue stalkers have with claws is the design of the set for dps and the design of the AT for burst damage. the two don't fit well.
[edit]
this all still belongs on the stalker board so i won't discuss it here Sunchild. but hey, keep repeating that stuff about Claws not being great at DPE. maybe it will actually be true one day.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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the issue stalkers have with claws is the design of the set for dps
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The problem is the design of the set is for dps, but an integral part of that design, Follow Up, is missing from the set. Is it really so much to ask that this difference between the Stalker and Scrapper sets be accounted for somehow, regardless of how it's done?
Gothika (Grav/Kin) Marionette (Ill/Rad) Terra Firma (Earth/Storm) Alana Dale (Arch/Nrg)
Iceblink (Ice/Dark) Fantasia (Mind/Fire) Shadow Minx (Claws/Nin)
--Virtue
the point i've been trying to make, aside from the fact that this dicussion is outside the scope of this thread, is that we don't even know how the devs want stalkers to play. that needs to be determined and then based on that, we need to see if claws can do that and continue to be a DPS set. Right now, it looks as if dps and stalker are opposites. So then you end up having to either redesign the whole set are start adding in funky secondary effects, like -res. And that's a pain to discuss.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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Personally, I would STILL like to see the "old" Swipe anim be placed on Eviscerate
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I think that's a terrible idea! I LOVE the Eviscerate animation, and would be terribly upset if it was changed. It's the only flashy move that Claws has now. I can live with the other changes, but if this one changes, I will personally throw a huge fit.
@Arwen Darkblade
Proud Member of Hammer of the Gods and Sanguine Syndicate
Arc ID #86194 "Cry Havoc"
Arc ID #103934 "Dr. Thomas' First Day"
[URL="http://tobyfife.blogspot.com/"]Hero Girl[/URL] - my geek culture blog
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the point i've been trying to make, aside from the fact that this dicussion is outside the scope of this thread, is that we don't even know how the devs want stalkers to play. that needs to be determined and then based on that, we need to see if claws can do that and continue to be a DPS set. Right now, it looks as if dps and stalker are opposites. So then you end up having to either redesign the whole set are start adding in funky secondary effects, like -res. And that's a pain to discuss.
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Not really. I think a good comprimise would be to decrease the recharge time on stalker/claws buildup. This doesn't effect the scrapper set and is in line with the fast recharge/fast attack concept of claws. I think this belongs on this thread. What I don't think belongs on this thread is the negative and sarcastic outburst you made in an attempt to belittle sunchild as another player after a "kill button I win" build. It simply isn't appropriate.
i've got no idea what you said, ignore ftw, but i'm going to assume you made a comment about how i responded to Sunchild.
if you had taken the care to read the entire exchange between the two of us in this thread rather than simply dropping in to try and sound cool by making snotty comment, you've have seen that his lastest set of posts is nothing more than a rehash of old points that he didn't prove last time either. but that would have required you to actually read a thread instead of simply trying to look cool. aw, who am i kidding, you'd have made the comment anyway.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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ArwenDarkblade:
I think that's a terrible idea! I LOVE the Eviscerate animation, and would be terribly upset if it was changed. It's the only flashy move that Claws has now. I can live with the other changes, but if this one changes, I will personally throw a huge fit.
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Shockwave is pretty flashy. 
But I agree, I wouldn't want Eviscerate changed either. Spinning claws of fury woohoo!
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Sunchild:
In summary, this isn't an argument only against EM (which is deemed fine by the Devs), this is an argument to BUFF Claws for Stalkers because it has NOTHING to be proud about... besides looking whicked-supa-cool.
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The only thing "special" thing claws has going for it is knockback. In PvE this really does make a difference. Honest! I built my claws stalker around the idea of a juggling the enemy. When an enemy is resistant to KB things become noticeably much more difficult.
Is knockback going to help a stalker in PvP? Probably not often.
Should Stalkers with Claws get some sort of buffage to put them on par with other sets? Yeah, probably.
hehe And looking cool helps a lot. Not to mention that claws has (in my opnion) one of the nastiest looking AS attacks.
claws and NB are the only AS's with unique animations and both look awesome
i like pink's idea of making buildup recharge faster for claws stalkers, maybe cut it in half, that'd be real nice for scrapping with my claws/regen (too bad our regen doesnt get quick recovery 
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i've got no idea what you said, ignore ftw, but i'm going to assume you made a comment about how i responded to Sunchild.
if you had taken the care to read the entire exchange between the two of us in this thread rather than simply dropping in to try and sound cool by making snotty comment, you've have seen that his lastest set of posts is nothing more than a rehash of old points that he didn't prove last time either. but that would have required you to actually read a thread instead of simply trying to look cool. aw, who am i kidding, you'd have made the comment anyway.
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Don't you just love this guy? I am ignored...he doesn't know what I said...yet he immediately attacks. Wonderful. Nice guy and very appropriate once again. That, or he does know what I said and tried to feebly attempt at a response that hid that truth. Whatever.
The animation for claws helps a bit but is fairly onesidedly scraptastic.
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Don't you just love this guy?
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Yeah. He's made useful posts in the past. But I guess nobody's perfect.
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I am ignored...he doesn't know what I said...yet he immediately attacks.
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Yeah, well. I guess in the end you can't expect too much from people who do the internet equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and going "la-la-la-la I'm not listening."
With a more on-topic note:
After giving my Claws/SR Stalker a run on Test way back near the beginning of this I7 testing phase, I shrugged and moved on to the new sets. The animations were generic, but they certainly felt quicker all around.
Then recently I happened to pop onto live to play Yet Another Ninja. It felt so sluggish and it took me a few minutes to realize that last time I played him it had been on test with the new animations. Now I want to respec out of Shockwave and into the other melee attack.
There's always room for improvement, but colour this Stalker happy with the changes made thus far.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
[ QUOTE ]
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Don't you just love this guy?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. He's made useful posts in the past. But I guess nobody's perfect.
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I am ignored...he doesn't know what I said...yet he immediately attacks.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, well. I guess in the end you can't expect too much from people who do the internet equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and going "la-la-la-la I'm not listening."
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oh, cool, it looks like i guessed right.
Sunchild and I have gone back and forth on the Claws for stalkers thing since i7 hit test. It's cool, I like talking it out with him. At this point, it boils down to a design issue. Scrapper claws were made for a playstyle that does not mesh well with stalkers and the stalker version of the set lost some stuff that made the scrapper version work. So it could definitely use a dev comment.
Pinkstar, on the other hand, introduced himself to the scrapper board by trolling, and not even doing that well. After seeing him post on a bunch of stuff and still retaining the same attitude he had in the troll thread he made, it was pretty clear that there's nothing to be gained by reading this posts. so off to limbo. Judging by what you quoting and your own less than stellar reply, i was plenty right in that decision.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
[ QUOTE ]
Sunchild and I have gone back and forth on the Claws for stalkers thing since i7 hit test. It's cool, I like talking it out with him. At this point, it boils down to a design issue. Scrapper claws were made for a playstyle that does not mesh well with stalkers and the stalker version of the set lost some stuff that made the scrapper version work. So it could definitely use a dev comment.
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You're probably right. I don't fully have a handle on it yet, having only gotten to 18 with that Stalker (on Live - my Test runs with him have been completely confined to that 18th level). In solo situations I haven't seen it being problematic, but in team situations it's more and more becoming a different matter as I go up in level. The animation change seems to help somewhat, but how much in the long term it will help I cannot say.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
It's all fine, I actually enjoy debating the topic with Fanboy.
I guess my position is the sets for Stalkers should remain unique, but equally effective in different areas. What I mean is, one set should be #1 in DPS, another should be #1 in AOE, another #1 in unique damage, #1 in secondary effects, etc. There are about 5-6 categories that really matter in both PvE and PvP. I truly believe one set should not sit at the top of all categories, and likewise, one set should not sit at the bottom.
With Scrappers, I believe the accelerated anmiation times went a long way, especially with the benefits of FU. However, with Stalkers you have a conundrum. The Devs believe Build Up on a Stalker is crucial for dealing with LTs/Bosses with AS (an other attacks). However, the Devs must recognize that Build Up does not provide nearly the same benefit when you have a set with low burst damage/common damage type.
It ISN'T that I want Follow-Up on a Stalker, I just believe the set needs something else to bring it from the bottom of the peer group to the median.
Do I know what the solution is? I have some suggestions, ranging from replacing Shockwave with a Armor-Piercing (-Res/-Regen) version of Aim (no Acc bonus) to just increasing the damage on Eviscerate (more burst damage to compete).
At the end of the day, it doesn't take a ton of play-time to realize Claws are underperforming and the animation changes didn't really change too much for Stalkers.
Cheers,
SUN
I have a claws/regen scrapper and its my first scrapper. I tested the new animations and I too was ok with it. On a related note though, I thought scrappers were more resistant (though of course not as much as a tank). I took Tough, is there anything else I can do to increase how much damage my regen scrapper can take or is he destined to always be just slightly more resilient than a defender/blaster/controller?
Arc: 378122 "Tales of the Terran Space Marines -The Apocalypse Initiative" 5stars!
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Arc: 481545 "Twilight of the Gods - The Praetorian conflict"8000+ hits!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxJ6S...848B21E2350DCC
healing your hp very often is pseudo-resistance
I'm really happy with the new changes to Claws. I've been playing a Claw/Invuln Scrapper from I1, and even though I was recluctant to this change (because I had never had a problem with Claws), I am delighted by them.
However, please don't ever change Eviscerate. It's the perfect, flashy, deadly capstone power in an attack chain. Please don't ever take away my backflip of doom.
@Arwen Darkblade
Proud Member of Hammer of the Gods and Sanguine Syndicate
Arc ID #86194 "Cry Havoc"
Arc ID #103934 "Dr. Thomas' First Day"
[URL="http://tobyfife.blogspot.com/"]Hero Girl[/URL] - my geek culture blog
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I think a good comprimise would be to decrease the recharge time on stalker/claws buildup. This doesn't effect the scrapper set and is in line with the fast recharge/fast attack concept of claws. I think this belongs on this thread.
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This thread is about the changes to Claws animations. How does a power's recharge time relate to its animation?
I have no idea how Claws works for Stalkers, because the AT as a whole holds no interest for me. So I am not arguing with the substantive arguments being made. Procedurally, it's a threadjack to start complaining about it here by pretending that this thread is open forum on anything remotely related to claws as a powerset.
Have to say I really like the new animations for claws.
Now, I liked the old slash animation, but it was long. Now, claws feels a LOT faster, just how that set should be.
Thanks much for a good change!
Karate Man - 50 MA/SR Scrapper
Frostgleam - 40 Ice/Axe Tanker
Twilight Flux - 40 Kin/Dark Defender
Necrosaro - 27 Necro/Dark Mastermind
Selena Moonblade - 30 DB/WP Scrapper
"Live life to it's fullest, and die playing Zelda!"
Voyagers forever! Long live M59, Server 100!
Cricket, you ROCK!
I had struggled to work out a good attack sequence to keep up with the other scrappers, and now I'm there! WOOT! YEAH! <cheers>
Now, when can I get my claws scrapper off my alt server and onto my main server?
I'll wait patiently... but at the rate we're going, said scrapper will be 50 before the change.
Happy gaming!
-SunderX
Sset - 50 DM/Regen Scrapper - 8 years of out-tanking any tank but Granite, with 5x the DPS.
**Making Altaholism a socially acceptable disorder**
"Scrappers are just like chainsaws. Somewhat hard to handle, EXTREMELY dangerous, and by far the most fun when wielded by the slightly insane." -Alissara
How ironic that you spent more time doing exactly what you were criticizing. The whole point behind the changes made to claws animations was to increase the ability of the power set in combat. Things like decreased recharge rate and reduced endurance were also changes made. The problem with this thread is that it should have been "claws changes", not claws animation changes and I think most intelligent people understand this as can be seen by the regular divergence from the titled theme of the thread. The changes made increased the set for both ATs that use it however, scrappers won out. I was just presenting some ideas for the other AT.
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lol. . . 
and the DPS all i can say is OMG YAY Claws is fixed!!! 
Well id like to say im over the moon with all the changes to Claws!!!
i find the playabilaty much more fun and effective and ive ALLWAYS loved Eviscerate but i did like the old sound effect better
Oh follow up 6 sloted with 3 ToHit/DefBuff/Rech & 3 Dam/Acc fits nicely in to my attack chain
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Ill second that
50 Mystical Elf kat/regen
50 Rhi fire/fire
50 Kltten claws/regen
50 xAnahitaX emp/arrow
50 Asyria ss/invul
50 Geisha Fire Dragon Fire Kin