Official Thread for Defense Scaling Changes
By
Alexio_DeAmore,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 13:40 in Developers' Corner
[ QUOTE ]
From Cricket's introduction:[ QUOTE ]
This thread is solely for discussions regarding the the new defense scaling system. From the Issue 7 Training Room patch notes
--snip--
All off topic posts will be removed. Please do not post bugs/feedback/balance issues before testing this content.
[/ QUOTE ]
Note that I added the bold for emphasis.
From Evil Geko[ QUOTE ]
1. No I haven't extensively tested this and I couldn't although I will test it. Probabalistic powers like defense are better tested mathematically. If you don't agree please feel free to flame me, but it doesn't change the facts.
[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly, why are we debating MOG instead of testing the defense scaling?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sigh... because the defense changes affect MoG since MoG is you know a defense power. Are we supposed to talk about the defense changes without talking about defensive powers? If so, how does that work?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I'll still use it when my bar's below 25% and everything else isn't recharged yet... but, yes, this power is far too situational in a set that's already got situational powers coming out it's backside.
Hell, even a half-Rage style power wouldn't be missed.
[ QUOTE ]
Sigh... because the defense changes affect MoG since MoG is you know a defense power. Are we supposed to talk about the defense changes without talking about defensive powers? If so, how does that work?
[/ QUOTE ]
No, you are supposed to *try it out* and see if there is a problem.
"I'll get hit 50% more" does not actually tell you if getting hit 50% more is broken and makes the power useless.
Still here, even after all this time!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion.
[/ QUOTE ]
Doesn't that mean that everything will have the same 5% chance to hit, regardless of whether they're a minion or AV? I mean....that's what that sentence says. And it's posted by a red name.
Are we not being told something?
[/ QUOTE ]
You're thinking "works just as well" means "dropped dead to the floor all the time." It actually means the same thing it means when used in the context of Resistance. If Resistance "works just as well" against even cons and +4s, that means regardless of the level, Resistance will still deflect the same fraction of total damage. 40% resistance means you take 60% of the damage from an even, and 60% of the damage from a +4.
In the case of Defense, this means if 20% defense means you evade 40% of all attacks that would have normally landed if you didn't have Defense, that's true against evens and +4s alike.
And that means if you can floor an even con from 50% to 5%, the very best you can do against a +4 that normally hits 70% of the time is reduce him to 7% - in both cases evading 90% of the attacks that would normally have hit you if you didn't have any Defense at all.
If Defense were allowed to "floor" even +4s down to 5%, and we called that "working just as well" that would be tantamount to a Resistance power deflecting 90 points of damage out of the 100 points an even con threw at you, allowing 10 points of damage to hit you, and then when scaled up to +4, that same Resistance power deflected 130 out of 140 points, so you were still hit with the same 10. That's not "same as," thats "much better than."
Regular Defense used to be "much crappier" against higher leveled villains, but extreme Defense like MoG and Elude used to be "much better than" against higher levels, because both so deeply floored the villains into the basement, in effect the level scaler didn't do anything at all: MoG and Elude nullified the Rank and Level Scaler in I6. At the cost of the Rank and Level Scaler obliterating "normal" defenses, like the entire SR set besides Elude.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
[ QUOTE ]
Sigh... because the defense changes affect MoG since MoG is you know a defense power. Are we supposed to talk about the defense changes without talking about defensive powers? If so, how does that work?
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll explain how it works.
You test the power, taking care to make quantifiable observations. You post your testing environment and the results of your test.
It seemed pretty obvious from Cricket's instructions that this isnt the forum for conjecture and there are too many factors to MOG's use to make your suspect conclusions viable.
I would like to invite everyone to the test server, once its stable, to try out any and all defensive powers under a variety of testing environments. I'm far more interested in making MOG and all defensive powers the best they can be, but threads like this one has turned into arent going to benefit anyone especially the poor man or woman in QC who drew the short straw and now has to read this stuff.
Lets get back on topic.
Meet my characters: Marqaha's Managerie
Adversity/Animosity: Strength through Diversity. Respect and Fun.
[ QUOTE ]
It seemed pretty obvious from Cricket's instructions that this isnt the forum for conjecture and there are too many factors to MOG's use to make your suspect conclusions viable.
[/ QUOTE ]
Please name them. What factors are there to MoG's use that would change any point I made?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
So if i'm reading this right, defense still sucks at PvP?
[ QUOTE ]
So if i'm reading this right, defense still sucks at PvP?
[/ QUOTE ]
Only if you get into an arena match against non-same level opponents.
In all of the PvP zones, you're automatically set to a default level (which means you're boosted or lowered, depending on your character's level versus the zone's set level).
[ QUOTE ]
So if i'm reading this right, defense still sucks at PvP?
[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't say that, but no there are no changes that are relevant to PvP other than SR scrappers losing their big AoE buffs.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
1. Don't use MoG.
2. Use Reconstruction, a fast charging heal power.
3. Get Drunk.
4. Profit.
[/ QUOTE ]
5. Use Instant Healing, which more resembles a power called Moment of Glory....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So if i'm reading this right, defense still sucks at PvP?
[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't say that, but no there are no changes that are relevant to PvP other than SR scrappers losing their big AoE buffs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just to be clear: the defense scaler itself does not affect PvP at all. One change in I7 that *will* affect PvP (and is off topic) is the SR passives increased from 5.625% to 7.5% defense, a slotted difference of about 3%. It sounds miniscule, but it amounts to 15% more damage mitigation against opponents with no tohit buffs for scrappers, and about 18% more damage mitigation for SR stalkers. Against opponents *with* high order tohit buffs, its not really that significant.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Wait, what's the difference between a To-Hit Buff and an Accuracy bonus? I don't understand what you guys are saying... Does Defense Scaling not mean that all enemies have the same accuracy or to-hit or whatever no matter what level they are? Doesn't this mean that your Defense powers don't have the normal -% effectiveness for fighting guys above your level?
[ QUOTE ]
Wait, what's the difference between a To-Hit Buff and an Accuracy bonus? I don't understand what you guys are saying... Does Defense Scaling not mean that all enemies have the same accuracy or to-hit or whatever no matter what level they are? Doesn't this mean that your Defense powers don't have the normal -% effectiveness for fighting guys above your level?
[/ QUOTE ]
The guy who posted just above this post of yours has an excellent guide to defense linked in his signature. Read it, get confused. Then read it again, get confused again, by the third time it usually clicks.
If you're a super smarty smart like Arcana and Stupid Fanboy you'll be able to pick it up in the first read. Idiots like me need a few reads. 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wait, what's the difference between a To-Hit Buff and an Accuracy bonus? I don't understand what you guys are saying... Does Defense Scaling not mean that all enemies have the same accuracy or to-hit or whatever no matter what level they are? Doesn't this mean that your Defense powers don't have the normal -% effectiveness for fighting guys above your level?
[/ QUOTE ]
The guy who posted just above this post of yours has an excellent guide to defense linked in his signature. Read it, get confused. Then read it again, get confused again, by the third time it usually clicks.
If you're a super smarty smart like Arcana and Stupid Fanboy you'll be able to pick it up in the first read. Idiots like me need a few reads.
[/ QUOTE ]
If S_F got it all the first try, more power to him: I had a slight advantage over him when it came to reading it.
The difference between accuracy and tohit buffs are relatively straight forward. Making things really simple, to calculate your chance to hit something, its just this:
ACC x (BaseToHit - Defense)
You're a player, your base tohit is 75% (except in PvP: its 50% there). If your target has Defense, you subtract. Then you multiply by your accuracy. Those acc SOs you're slotting? That's accuracy. If you put two acc SOs in an attack, that's +66% acc, which in math terms is 1.66 acc. So, if you're attacking a critter with 30% defense, you're tohit is:
1.66 x (0.75 - 0.30) = 1.66 x (0.45) = 0.747 = 74.7%.
Now, the difference between an accuracy buff, and a tohit buff? Tohit buffs go here:
1.66 x (0.75 - 0.30 + tohitbuff)
Accuracy buffs go here:
AccBuff x 1.66 x (0.75 - 0.30)
Notice, tohit buffs happen first, before acc is taken into account. Accuracy happens last, after everything is taken into account.
Accuracy is "fair" to defense. If you have 10% defense, and I have 30% defense, a 20% (1.2) accuracy buff will make the attacker hit you 20% more often, and me 20% more often. That's fair. A 20% tohit buff is not "fair" to defense: your tohit will go up from 0.75 - 0.10 = 0.65 (65%) to 0.75 - 0.10 + 0.20 = 0.85 (85%), a net 31% increase (85/65). Mine will go up from 0.75 - 0.30 = 0.45 (45%) to 0.75 - 0.30 + 0.20 = 0.65 (65%), a net 44% increase (65/45). He'll hit you 31% more often, and me 44% more often. Tohit buffs hit high defense "harder" than low (or no) defense.
Now (in I6), minions have 50% base chance to hit you. But bosses have a higher chance: 65%. In effect, they have a +15% tohit buff. +4s have a +20% tohit chance over even level minions. Higher "Rank" (LTs, Bosses, AVs) and higher level things have implicit tohit buffs, and therefore hurt high defense things more than high resistance things (aka no defense). That was the imbalance that the I7 scaler was meant to fix: in I7, *everything* now has base 50% chance to hit you, and higher Rank and higher Level things now have accuracy buffs instead of tohit buffs, which make the critters more accurate, but in a way that hits high defense sets the same as low defense sets (i.e. high resistance or regeneration sets).
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
4 of the new paragon protector elites, conning orange, ripped through my SR with little effort.
6 orange rikti bosses had a rougher time of it.
Having only the RCS to test in, I can't honestly say that I'm feeling either buff (defense scaling or passives) at this particular moment.
Without a respec, I'm unable to give Bill a proper attack chain redo. Nice to see Crey conning properly in the RCS. Unfortunately, you have lvl 50 bosses with way grey minions surrounding them.
On my EA brute, I did notice a distinct improvement in the number of misses.
Lastly, please remove the grey popups for "dodged" and "deflected." With the lack of graphical optimization, that's just one more piece of unnecessary graphics floating in front of me.
Be well, people of CoH.
[ QUOTE ]
4 of the new paragon protector elites, conning orange, ripped through my SR with little effort.
6 orange rikti bosses had a rougher time of it.
Having only the RCS to test in, I can't honestly say that I'm feeling either buff (defense scaling or passives) at this particular moment.
Without a respec, I'm unable to give Bill a proper attack chain redo. Nice to see Crey conning properly in the RCS. Unfortunately, you have lvl 50 bosses with way grey minions surrounding them.
On my EA brute, I did notice a distinct improvement in the number of misses.
Lastly, please remove the grey popups for "dodged" and "deflected." With the lack of graphical optimization, that's just one more piece of unnecessary graphics floating in front of me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, orange bosses are +0. You need to go up against +1s to +5s or so to really see the scaling change.
Still here, even after all this time!
First tests
Powers used: Parry, MoG, 33% Lucks
Two test situations
1) Against a spawn of 12 DE Granite (Lts.) and Boulders (Minions) even con
Using MoG - Face Plant. The minions appeared to be capped. The Lts. which made up half of the spawn managed to wear me down before I could wear them down. (They had Lethal resists, I had a crap 38 power)
Using Parry and normal Regen powers - Victory. Same spawn, different result. Two of the Lts and a few minions were down from my MoG attempt. This time however, Parry seemed to work beautifully. Like Bill said it's hard to see much of a buff, but in Parry's case I could definitely tell it was there especially when double stacked. This might just be my subjective impression but it felt more secure.
Using 33% Lucks - Victory. I accidently interspersed Parry in this fight against a spawn of Rikti. With no need to worry about Psi I just waded in and tore up. The bosses were definitely hitting less, I think.
2) Against +2 Nemesis spawns in a mission instance in the Shard
Using MoG - Face Plant. Probably not MoG's fault this time, the minor toxic gas used by the robots hurt MoG a lot. But these +2 probably would have taken me down anyway there was still plenty of time left in the buff.
Using Parry and normal Regen powers - Laughably easy. I remember then why I don't have MoG on live. My normal regen powers (I didn't have to use IH) + Parry allowed me to take on two rooms full of Nemesis. I had about 12 shooting at me at once. However Parry and Reconstruction kept me topped off.
Using 33% lucks - Sleepwalk. Definitely can tell the scaling was there. Very easy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm somewhat limited in my test subjects but my impressions regarding MoG were validated by my testing as limited as it was. With an acc bonus, mobs are just getting more hits. Not a lot more, we should be mindful that MoG sucked before I7, but enough that it's noticeable. The even conned Lts v. minions showed me that clearly.
MoG should be fixed.
The defense changes are generally wonderful. Good job devs.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
The scaling changes should be apparent with orange bosses, as the underlying change affects level tohit bonuses and mob class tohit bonuses. I noticed a difference with my SR scrapper, at least, in limited testing.
As far as I can see with the changes is this. Minions and lts, there isnt much of a change to performence, untill you start fighting +2s and up. The big differences are seen when you go up to a boss then an EB. This is from a SR scrapper perspective though.
If you realy want to see something that brings back memories of Perma Elude..... Well this is what I did. I first logged in Soul Strike from the Hive. I looked down and saw a Thorn. So I toggled up and jumped down to give it the acid test. Mind at this point I hadnt tested anything yet. Lets just say the Thorn took 10 minutes to take me down, I have no self heals. On live without Elude I last about 30 seconds.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm somewhat limited in my test subjects but my impressions regarding MoG were validated by my testing as limited as it was. With an acc bonus, mobs are just getting more hits. Not a lot more, we should be mindful that MoG sucked before I7, but enough that it's noticeable. The even conned Lts v. minions showed me that clearly.
MoG should be fixed.
The defense changes are generally wonderful. Good job devs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wait a minute, you mean you tested MoG? And it was just as bad as you expected?
So you're telling me that increasing the chance to be hit made MoG worse, like you were saying earlier but previous posters said you should test first just to make sure?
I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
[ QUOTE ]
Please name them. What factors are there to MoG's use that would change any point I made?
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, we don't know. That's why we are supposed to test.
[ QUOTE ]
Primarily this is because you spend too long in the buff without the ability to heal and with inadequate HP. My suggestions are meant to correct that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Would a solution be to reduce the duration of MoG (and presumably the no-regen time afterwards)?
[ QUOTE ]
First tests
[/ QUOTE ]
Finally! Now you are talking!
Actually, I also like to idly speculate - but one must realize that pseclation is much weaker testing. More than one or two speculative posts before you start testing can give you a bad name.
[ QUOTE ]
Lastly, please remove the grey popups for "dodged" and "deflected." With the lack of graphical optimization, that's just one more piece of unnecessary graphics floating in front of me.
[/ QUOTE ]
I liked the pop-up text. Defensive powers needed some indication they were indeed working. Especially on low-defense toons like my Hover/Combat Jump/Weave Fire Tank. But I realize it can be annoying in the long run, especially on a defense focused toon. The OPTION to turn it off would be nice.
However, it was pretty cool getting an almost unlimited number of dodge messages from Assassin Strikes and general attacks on my Claws/SR in Recluse's. Especially as I stood there taking over the pillbox the villains had just defeated for me.
I brought my lvl 35 brute into a mission. She is SS/Energy Aura.
Ive all SOs.
I came accross two 37 minions. Stood beside them. After about 20
seconds I died.
Its like nothing has changed from live , I still suck 
Fidens lvl 50 Katana/Regen Scrapper
Scarred Dream lvl 50 Ice/Dark Corrupter
Hephaestus II lvl 40 Fire/Thermal Corrupter
Evolution/Malevolence - Virtue
[ QUOTE ]
Finally! Now you are talking!
Actually, I also like to idly speculate - but one must realize that pseclation is much weaker testing. More than one or two speculative posts before you start testing can give you a bad name.
[/ QUOTE ]
To quote Indigo Montoya: "You use that word a lot (speculate). I do not think it means what you think it means."
Saying without testing that you would get hit more with MoG wasn't speculation. It was simply understanding the mechanics of the change. That's something the cult of "Test it first!" never seems to understand.
To use an extreme example, if a patch note said, "All Dominators are now immune to all damage but Smashing," would you really need to test to consider the implications of that?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Dont know where this goes, but here seems logical.
Love the new 'deflected' instead of 'miss'.
Actual onscreen evidence of FF buffs etc having an effect.
Two thumbs, 8 fimngers and 6 claws all the way up on this one.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
I've been a half-a$$ed supporter of MoG just because it's sort of a thrill ride (mostly since you need Revive to pick yourself off the ground after you make a mistake), but I'll back up EvilGeko on this one. My Ice/Ice Tanker loves this change, but MoG is practically dead to me now thanks to it. Defense scaling did this, not bugs.
A guide to the deranged, degraded inhabitants of the forums.