Official Thread for Defense Scaling Changes
By
Alexio_DeAmore,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 13:40 in Developers' Corner
While the Training room was up I tested my defense against a +2 Lt, and +2 Minion and they took me out in 4 hits with just my toggles and passives...no noticeable difference from current game play. I stood in a group of 12 even conned minions and was taken out in about 10-20 seconds...no noticeable difference from my level 23 Super Reflex Stalker, or 25 Super Reflex Scrapper.
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While the Training room was up I tested my defense against a +2 Lt, and +2 Minion and they took me out in 4 hits with just my toggles and passives...no noticeable difference from current game play. I stood in a group of 12 even conned minions and was taken out in about 10-20 seconds...no noticeable difference from my level 23 Super Reflex Stalker, or 25 Super Reflex Scrapper.
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You can't base anything on that few a number of attacks. That could be a streak of bad luck. Statistical analysis works that way.
You need a run of a minimum of several hundred, and preferably several thousand attacks with misses and hits counted, to really get a picture of what defense powers are doing.
Other posters in this thread have hopped on and reported completely contrary results to your own, and the reason is the same. They had lucky streaks.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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While the Training room was up I tested my defense against a +2 Lt, and +2 Minion and they took me out in 4 hits with just my toggles and passives...no noticeable difference from current game play. I stood in a group of 12 even conned minions and was taken out in about 10-20 seconds...no noticeable difference from my level 23 Super Reflex Stalker, or 25 Super Reflex Scrapper.
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You can't base anything on that few a number of attacks. That could be a streak of bad luck. Statistical analysis works that way.
You need a run of a minimum of several hundred, and preferably several thousand attacks with misses and hits counted, to really get a picture of what defense powers are doing.
Other posters in this thread have hopped on and reported completely contrary results to your own, and the reason is the same. They had lucky streaks.
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I would be more specific however due to the lag and disconnects Hero Stats was not able to get more than just a few fights. My statement was just an overall impression, I will make a more accurate assessment when the server is up and stable.
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Ah. I thought that the "untyped" referred to smashing vs. lethal vs. fire, etc. I didn't know it also applied to melee vs ranged vs aoe. Though part of me says there's something wrong with that. Hami's attack is very obviously AoE (many a raid wiped out by gaining Hami aggro).
What about Mito attacks? Are they untyped too, since they're Hamidon class?
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To the best of my knowledge, Mitos too.
As to Hamidon's attacks being "obviously" AoE, you're right, they are. But the typing has to do with what defenses work against it, and what the devs are saying is that AoE defense doesn't work against Hamidon.
Headsplitter can hit multiple targets; its "obviously" an AoE as well. But its typed as "melee" for the purposes of defense. If an AoE can be typed melee for defense, it can also be "typed" as "nothing" for the purposes of defense, which is essentially how Hamidon (mitos, nucleus) is typed.
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Just so you know, you don't have to explain this to me in such detail. I'm quite sure I understand all the mathematics involved. 
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You should assume I do it because I'm incurably wordy, not because I don't think you know better.
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The question is, does the player base CARE that this is "not fair"? Is it more important that Defense and Resistance be "bashed to fit" the exact same parameters, or is the 5% to hit floor the 5% to hit floor, and not, "5% sometimes and not 5% other times"? Remember that we are not talking about a hard cap, as you said yourself. 45% Defense will protect against an AV or a Minion the exact same amount, since it does NOT floor the AV's to hit, and never would. 50% Defense, however, is no more useful than 45% against a Minion, but might give a bit more protection against an AV.
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If no one cared about Defense and Resistance having similar scaling, the justification for the I7 scaling change itself would go away. The only reason for making the change was to bring parity to Defense and Resistance; I was simply stating that from a mechanical perspective, it would be hypocritical of me to first ask for Defense to scale the same as Resistance, and then on top of that ask that a scaling mechanism that keeps Resistance on an approximately even footing with Defense be removed.
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If I am correct, though, the original equation is still being used in I7, if the foe is lower level than you. Only higher level foes have been changed. I think I remember a dev saying that. If not, then obviously Defense-based sets will be hit more often by lower level foes, but the damage mitigation should be no worse than Resistance. OTOH, if I'm right, Def still has an advantage over Res. Against foes that do not give a lot of XP, but technically there is an imbalance.
Or is there not a penalty for low level MOBs? I'm not really sure, although I believe that buffs and debuffs are not resisted, and in fact are not resisted but increased, instead of reduced as with higher level foes.
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I think its the case that for the most part, most people don't care too much about critters much lower than you. Not just because they don't give as much (if any) xp, but more so because since damage also degrades with (lower) level, the slight difference in accuracy that lower level critters get is attenuated, whereas as you go higher, the difference in accuracy (between I6 and I7) gets larger, on top of being magnified by higher damage. Basically, the difference means more at higher levels, while it means increasingly little at lower levels, regardless of what the difference (in accuracy) actually is.
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PvE don't slot MoG for defense (Actually, don't take MoG but you are too wilful to listen to reason.).
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Ok what about elude? It has a much lower base than MoG. Will base elude already put everything at the low cap? What about with all the normal SR toggles running as well?
As far as MoG, I'll most likely still keep it....it's either MoG or a second travel power or something like confront. I don't see a point in either of those.
from the 2 pre-canned Net-res-debuff answers i got, i can tell that this issue has been debated before. I don't want to drag a dead horse out again but it looks like you guys are dissecting the power into it's individual parts without considering the compounding effects of defense with resistance together.
MoG Might be a net resist debuff when compared to your total health but the remaining health is protected by awesome defense AND is resistant to the very few hits that get through.
I know that Arcanaville has dissected all this but can you give me a cliff's note version? I still believe the remaining 25% health with 70% resist at insane defense levels is more survivable than 100% health with no resist and regular defense level.
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I know that Arcanaville has dissected all this but can you give me a cliff's note version? I still believe the remaining 25% health with 70% resist at insane defense levels is more survivable than 100% health with no resist and regular defense level.
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It is not.
Assume you slot it for DR once. You no cap out as a Stalker or Scrapper is 75% DR.
Now you've got 1/4 damage coming into 1/4 HP. Zero sum game.
You've got massive defense. Bonus.
You cannot heal.
You have become a gimped SR scrapper running Elude. Why gimped? Because SR Scrappers can be healed. You cannot.
No amount of defense buffing will help you. No amount of toHit debuffing will help you. Foes toHit against you cannot drop any further.
No amount of DR buffing can help you. You are at the cap.
You have no protection against Psionic and Toxic damage (neither DR nor Defense). You take 100% damage into 25% HP.
You cannot be healed.
Compared to using your other Regen powers your overall survivability drops against most foes when you use MoG, and it drops dramatically if the foes use Psi or Toxic damage. I believe Arcanaville has analyzed this and come to that result, though I may be incorrect in remembering that.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Momemt of Glory needs to be changed. This power depends on the mobs being at 5% final to-hit. The defense bonus was formerly high enough to make that so. Now with the changes this is much less likely to happen. Only even conned minions can be capped at 5%. Every other rank of mob will be higher.
Since MoG is rarely needed fighting even cons this is a significant downgrade. Any additional damage is meaningful to MoG since the power does not allow healing or regeneration.
I recommend one of the following:
1. Remove the HP drop
2. Remove the -heal, but keep the -regen
3. Throw the power out and replace it with Overload
4. Throw the power out and make it an actual regen power
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1. Don't use MoG.
2. Use Reconstruction, a fast charging heal power.
3. Get Drunk.
4. Profit.
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Profit is a little miffed right now, as the INV passives were left to flounder in mediocrity.
(The above post cares nothing for PvP, the above post is only concerned with PvE.)
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PvE don't slot MoG for defense (Actually, don't take MoG but you are too wilful to listen to reason.).
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Ok what about elude? It has a much lower base than MoG. Will base elude already put everything at the low cap? What about with all the normal SR toggles running as well?
As far as MoG, I'll most likely still keep it....it's either MoG or a second travel power or something like confront. I don't see a point in either of those.
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Elude is still no. With the passives and toggles you're still well above the soft cap, and Elude's endurance recovery buff gives you the power to run them easily.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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from the 2 pre-canned Net-res-debuff answers i got, i can tell that this issue has been debated before. I don't want to drag a dead horse out again but it looks like you guys are dissecting the power into it's individual parts without considering the compounding effects of defense with resistance together.
MoG Might be a net resist debuff when compared to your total health but the remaining health is protected by awesome defense AND is resistant to the very few hits that get through.
I know that Arcanaville has dissected all this but can you give me a cliff's note version? I still believe the remaining 25% health with 70% resist at insane defense levels is more survivable than 100% health with no resist and regular defense level.
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Uberguy hit the key points, but I would also note that Regens are normally at an advantage against toxic damage. It's our strength. In MoG it becomes a weakness, a detriment. Where a regen will usually have about 20-47% resistance to Toxic, you now have 75% (capped) but you only have 1/4 of your HP which effectively makes it even more of a debuff.
Now you asked a trick question. You asked if MoG was superior to a regen at 100% health with no resists and regular defense. Well that't true, it's better than absolutely nothing. BUT, MoG is substantially inferior to two other options available to regens:
1. Your normal regen powers (especially, the vastly more potent IH + Dull Pain combo)
2. Two lucks
Either of those options is vastly safer than MoG. It's not even close. I've tested it pre-I7, it was true then. Now it's even worse.
People see 71% resists, 80% defense and think UBER! But when you add that -regen, -heal, -75% of your HP, you're in a demonstrably worse position than you were before you hit the power.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
My conclusion with MoG is that it does work great when you are faced with very heavy hitters that will one or two shot you or just enough incoming damage that you can't heal fast enough. Granted it does have some holes compared to Elude, however if you consider MoG as a utility power where Elude is a core power of Super Reflexes. With it being a utility power you then have the option of not having to take it for survival and are left with options that Super Reflexes does not have the room to make.
Just tested this in recluse's victory. And I watched as a stalker not hidden, and in all honesty it was hard to even see if he actually had any toggles on I pray he did. As 20 heroes attempted to hit him as he just stood their. I would presume either sr or perhaps ninja, but at any rate the defense of this stalker was to say the least excessive.
I think perhaps the scaling is way off from this observation.
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Just tested this in recluse's victory. And I watched as a stalker not hidden, and in all honesty it was hard to even see if he actually had any toggles on I pray he did. As 20 heroes attempted to hit him as he just stood their. I would presume either sr or perhaps ninja, but at any rate the defense of this stalker was to say the least excessive.
I think perhaps the scaling is way off from this observation.
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"Defense scaling" did not change PvP in any way, form or manner. This was a change to critter toHit calculations only.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Uberguy hit the key points, but I would also note that Regens are normally at an advantage against toxic damage. It's our strength. In MoG it becomes a weakness, a detriment. Where a regen will usually have about 20-47% resistance to Toxic, you now have 75% (capped) but you only have 1/4 of your HP which effectively makes it even more of a debuff.
Now you asked a trick question. You asked if MoG was superior to a regen at 100% health with no resists and regular defense. Well that't true, it's better than absolutely nothing. BUT, MoG is substantially inferior to two other options available to regens:
1. Your normal regen powers (especially, the vastly more potent IH + Dull Pain combo)
2. Two lucks
Either of those options is vastly safer than MoG. It's not even close. I've tested it pre-I7, it was true then. Now it's even worse.
People see 71% resists, 80% defense and think UBER! But when you add that -regen, -heal, -75% of your HP, you're in a demonstrably worse position than you were before you hit the power.
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The tricky thing about MoG is that it actually does two good things (high defense, heal to "full"), one weirdly neutral thing most of the time (+RES, -HEALTH), and one bad thing (-regen). And the trick is that the good thing is front-loaded, while the bad thing is backloaded.
If you are at low health and dropping fast in the face of something that can actually kill you, and you have two options:
1. Flip on IH
2. Go MoG
here's the interesting thing that will happen. MoG will start off better: MoG can actually save your life in that first few seconds faster than IH can, which is why some people like it. But then it shuts off regeneration, which means each second that ticks by, the IH regen gains on the MoG scrapper. Somewhere in the general vicinity of 90 seconds, the IH scrapper "catches up" with the MoG scrapper, and (coincidentally) IH shuts off.
Now you have a regen scrapper with everything but IH, vs a MoG scrapper with whatever damage they absorbed in the first 90 seconds and no way to heal. No contest: the (formerly) IH scrapper now pulls ahead of the MoG scrapper, so that the net survivability of the IH scrapper over three minutes (the duration of MoG) is better overall than the MoG scrapper, who has to hold his breath for three minutes, or at some point run.
My rough estimate is that if MoG lasted between 90 seconds and two minutes, it would (because of the instant heal to full at the start) occasionally tie or outperform instant healing during that stretch (Defense being probabilistic, no guarantees).
Regardless, MoG is basically worthless against toxic, and less than worthless against psi, which would still be problematic. But a shorter MoG would at least not be a net loss overall.
MoG is actually aptly named: it really is "A Moment of Glory." Its main problem is that it lasts a lot longer than the moment does.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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Just tested this in recluse's victory. And I watched as a stalker not hidden, and in all honesty it was hard to even see if he actually had any toggles on I pray he did. As 20 heroes attempted to hit him as he just stood their. I would presume either sr or perhaps ninja, but at any rate the defense of this stalker was to say the least excessive.
I think perhaps the scaling is way off from this observation.
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1. He got lucky. If you could prove that 20 attackers simultaneously couldn't connect at all for an extended length of time, that would be suggestive evidence of a bug in the tohit floor. But I've never seen 20 all miss all the time. One or two at least connect, which is exactly how many ought to under elude.
2. Conversely, you put a large number of attackers (certainly not 20) around a regen stalker while both DP and IH are up, and you'll get the same net result: you'll hit, but most likely not damage fast enough to defeat it. Psychologically, people hate missing: they would rather hit ineffectively than miss. But if I'm running Elude on you, its certainly not to make you happy 
3. As others have mentioned, the scaler didn't change PvP, because the scaler didn't change Defense. It changed the inherent tohit of critters only.
4. I've run Elude as a scrapper and Kuji-in Retsu as a stalker in PvP. If 20 attackers have me surrounded, I might get away with that for a brief period of time, but I know my seconds are numbered: a lucky double strike is going to kill me before I have a chance to use Aid Self. I'll go down swinging, but I'll go down nonetheless.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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I haven't been able to figure out how to properly test the difference in Test and Live. However I notice quite a difference. Against minions from lvl 50-53, I notice pretty good defense. I'm pretty much satisifed. However, when I am fighting +2 bosses, thats when I notice something doesn't seem right. In Live, I was able to fight the boss and I seemed to be hit alot less but I died because of the minion that was shooting me from behind. But when I got to Test, The minion attacks missed.. which is good.. but the hits from the boss seemed to go through almost everytime! Only one attack missed but then I dropped very shortly after. I'm not much of a numerical person... game wise. I guess i need to spend some time and learn about that lol. But I was wondering if anyone else felt no difference.. if not even worse results in test.
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MoG is actually aptly named: it really is "A Moment of Glory." Its main problem is that it lasts a lot longer than the moment does.
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I agree. I suggested a long time ago that it be reduced to 60 seconds and lose it's ending crash. 90% of the reasons one should use MoG would be done by that time.
And this fits with all my testing. It is exactly between 60 secs to 120 seconds when you get in trouble with MoG. That plus it's other problems kills it for me.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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from the 2 pre-canned Net-res-debuff answers i got, i can tell that this issue has been debated before. I don't want to drag a dead horse out again but it looks like you guys are dissecting the power into it's individual parts without considering the compounding effects of defense with resistance together.
MoG Might be a net resist debuff when compared to your total health but the remaining health is protected by awesome defense AND is resistant to the very few hits that get through.
I know that Arcanaville has dissected all this but can you give me a cliff's note version? I still believe the remaining 25% health with 70% resist at insane defense levels is more survivable than 100% health with no resist and regular defense level.
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Uberguy hit the key points, but I would also note that Regens are normally at an advantage against toxic damage. It's our strength. In MoG it becomes a weakness, a detriment. Where a regen will usually have about 20-47% resistance to Toxic, you now have 75% (capped) but you only have 1/4 of your HP which effectively makes it even more of a debuff.
Now you asked a trick question. You asked if MoG was superior to a regen at 100% health with no resists and regular defense. Well that't true, it's better than absolutely nothing. BUT, MoG is substantially inferior to two other options available to regens:
1. Your normal regen powers (especially, the vastly more potent IH + Dull Pain combo)
2. Two lucks
Either of those options is vastly safer than MoG. It's not even close. I've tested it pre-I7, it was true then. Now it's even worse.
People see 71% resists, 80% defense and think UBER! But when you add that -regen, -heal, -75% of your HP, you're in a demonstrably worse position than you were before you hit the power.
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And slotting for defense allows you to face off with Archvillains that are higher levels (+3, fairly easily.)
What? It *could* be useful? If slotted? Yup.
Figure that an archvillain +3 is 50%*1.25*1.3=82.5% accuracy. Now factor in 80%*1.57=125% defense.
(IIRC, it actually works out to 40%*1.575=63% but directly to the base accuracy total. So a +3 AV is no only hitting you about 9% of the time.
Figure that against getting hit *82.5%* of the time for 130% archvillain damage. You are over nines times tougher running MoG for a short time with a few holes.
That's why MoG does (not) get changed, because it has utility and does work.
It just doesn't work thematically in regen, but oh well. There are several power oddities that are like that.
Still here, even after all this time!
I really think you should read Arcana's analysis, just above, Futurias.
No one is saying the power does nothing. What is being said is that the way it works in total is inferior to just using Regen's other powers, and is significantly inferior if you pop a couple of lucks with your Regen powers.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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And slotting for defense allows you to face off with Archvillains that are higher levels (+3, fairly easily.)
What? It *could* be useful? If slotted? Yup.
Figure that an archvillain +3 is 50%*1.25*1.3=82.5% accuracy. Now factor in 80%*1.57=125% defense.
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It doesn't work like that. A +3 AV has acc mods of .5 (for rank) and .3 (for level). They aren't multiplied in until AFTER defense is applied to the base to-hit of 50%.
Assuming MoG is at least 75% (which we're all pretty sure it is) there is no reason to slot MoG for defense against a +3 AV. The calculation would go like this:
Base to hit(50%) - Defense(75%) =
-25%(5%) (Minimum to-hit is 5%, so the to-hit that is multiplied by accuracy is 5%)
5%*1.5=7.5%
7.5%*1.3=9.75%
(please note you could have multipled 1.5*1.3=1.95*5=9.75%)
Slotting MoG for defense would not change the result in any way.
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Figure that against getting hit *82.5%* of the time for 130% archvillain damage. You are over nines times tougher running MoG for a short time with a few holes.
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The correct accuracy assuming no defense is 95% (bounded from 97.5%). Now I can't disagree with you. All things being equal you have a better shot against the +3 AV running MoG than running nothing. But that tells us nothing.
Run against the same AV with:
Dull Pain, IH, two little lucks (50% defense)
Even assuming no other defense or resistance, you're now much better off than you would be under MoG.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Run against the same AV with:
Dull Pain, IH, two little lucks (50% defense)
Even assuming no other defense or resistance, you're now much better off than you would be under MoG.
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Can't you run DP in conjunction with MoG as well? IF so it should be factored out of the comparison.
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Run against the same AV with:
Dull Pain, IH, two little lucks (50% defense)
Even assuming no other defense or resistance, you're now much better off than you would be under MoG.
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Can't you run DP in conjunction with MoG as well? IF so it should be factored out of the comparison.
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Except that DP increases the HP regenned by IH and your normal healing powers. So while the relative HP stays constant you get more benefit from Dull Pain in the second scenario.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Except that DP increases the HP regenned by IH and your normal healing powers. So while the relative HP stays constant you get more benefit from Dull Pain in the second scenario.
Even so applying it to one instance and not the other is unfair as Dull Pain is one of the few powers that will function under MoG conditions to any degree.
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Slotting defense in either Elude or MoG will help counter high tohit buffs in PvP. In PvE, there are very few tohit buffs high enough to overwhelm either (DE quartz eminators would be one). And as EvilGeko said, it also helps with defense debuffs. MoG has no protection from defense debuffs, and SR has something they call defense debuff resistance but seems to have the same effect on defense debuffs as prayer does.
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Ok so if a person doesn't do any PvP, there's really no reason to slot either one, right? Because I can't really think of any serious defense debuffs in PvE, other than MAYBE DE quartz, but those are really rare).
Well.....at least that saves some slots.
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PvE don't slot MoG for defense (Actually, don't take MoG but you are too wilful to listen to reason.).
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.