Official Thread for Defense Scaling Changes
By
Alexio_DeAmore,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 13:40 in Developers' Corner
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This thread is solely for discussions regarding the the new defense scaling system. From the Issue 7 Training Room patch notes:
Modified PvE critter accuracy. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless if they have higher accuracy. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. Previously, a more accurate critter could circumvent much of your defense, but this will no longer happen. This change is designed to alleviate the disparity between Defense and Damage
resistance powers (for instance, a player with super reflexes will now be more effective against a high level critters, a boss or Arch villain) This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense. More accurate critters may have a greater chance at the extreme low end of the To Hit scale than previously due to this change. For instance, an Archvillain whose To Hit previously was set at the 5% minimum, will now have a 7.5% chance to hit. This change does not affect PvP.
All off topic posts will be removed. Please do not post bugs/feedback/balance issues before testing this content.
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Cricket:
The only problem with this is with ED in place, it cuts the defensive bonuses by 40% since the inherent defensive bonus is weaker than the other enhancements. So I propose you raise the enhancement bonus from 5%, 10%, 20% to 8.3%, 16.7%, 33.3%. This would allow us to have better defenses.
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One has nothing to do with the other. The I7 change is not a change to Defense, and is not intended to directly strengthen defense sets specifically. Its intended to ensure that critters do not have unintentionally common ways to bypass defense.
As I've put it in the past, prior to I7, every LT, Boss, AV, and +1 and higher, has had the defensive equivalent of unresistable damage. I7 takes it away. Yes, it makes Defense sets hurt a lot less when fighting those things, but they were never meant to hurt disproportionately more in the first place.
The change has nothing to do with actual defensive set strength: all it does is ensure that whatever strength defensive sets have, they continue to have against all I7 critters in exactly the same way that resistance sets have the same strength against those same critters.
Put more directly: this change should have been in place right at release, regardless of the strength of defense sets at release. Whether defense sets need to be buffed, nerfed, or kept the same, this I7 change is how it was always supposed to be.
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Is accuracy bonuses still supposed to kill defense? I have been doing quite alot of Devouring Earth missions lately and if a Guardian gets to drop that quartz pet of his everything, and I do mean everything, hits me without problem. Same thing with Nemesis if I kill the lieu. I just don't understand why defense isn't a seperate check from the mob's attack check.
Oh, and I do agree with any post that augments for defense and resistance need to be on a better schedule, considering the low base numbers for toggles and the miniscule bonus for passives. Heck, the only thing that makes passives worth taking is the base numbers for toggle defenses are so small that any increase is helpful.
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Is accuracy bonuses still supposed to kill defense? I have been doing quite alot of Devouring Earth missions lately and if a Guardian gets to drop that quartz pet of his everything, and I do mean everything, hits me without problem. Same thing with Nemesis if I kill the lieu.
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Both of those are tohit bonuses, not accuracy, and yes, they are not healthy for defense. I don't know if Nemesis Vengeance is identical to player Vengeance, but I can tell you that the DE quartz eminator is +100% tohit. Basically, if you are not under Elude or three simultaneous stacked defender bubbles, you might as well not have defense at all verses any DE that is standing in its buff aura. If you are a defense set, you need to kill those (or the LTs that spawn them) very fast.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
any statements on the new IO enh/sets regarding defence? in trying to eke out every last bit of 'no you ain't' from the set i'm wondering how the seemingly minimal upgrade of 2% defence bonus from 4 slotting focused fighting/senses with IO's over SO's is going to make me a happy scrapper? and/or whether defence really benefits from a shifting into IO's overall from a level 50 p.o.v. across the board through the passives as well?
i'm floating round test if you'd like to chat or could use a hand with testing specifics - on test @E-Razor lvl 50 claw/sr
Kittens give Morbo gas.
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any statements on the new IO enh/sets regarding defence?
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Yeah, right-click on everyone before dueling them in the arena: if you see "Enhanced Accuracy" like eleven times in their set bonuses, don't.
There is a lot more to-hit than defense in the sets. Castle just cut them all in half, and there's *still* massively more tohit than defense in the sets: that's how large the discrepancy is.
The best buff for defense powersets in the IO sets isn't generally more defense: its more speed, if you can make use of more speed (which mostly requires building around speed).
It is *possible* to get more defense, but for SR, you need positional defense, and that requires either five or six of a set to get, for the sets that have it, which will make positional defense very expensive to acquire.
One +Tohit IO (at about +6% tohit) almost knocks out the positional defense achievable with about 30 set IOs (out of which you can probably get about +7.5% defense to melee/ranged/AoE).
In PvE, things are somewhat better, mostly because the critters don't get to use inventions, so any benefit you get is a benefit over the critters - even tohit buffs.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Shortly after Issue 9 goes live here's what's going to happen.
The rich PvPers will stack their characters with + Acc and + ToHit set bonuses.
Invulnerability Scrappers will be able to use set bonuses to get their Defense to higher levels than Super Reflexes Scrappers. And of course they will still have the Resistances which */SR Scrappers do not.
Super Reflexes Scrappers will be able to use set bonuses to get Perma-Hasten and near-perma-Elude. But it won't make the slightest bit of difference because the PvPers will have so much + Acc bonuses stacked on their characters that they'll still be able to hit Super Reflexes Scrappers running Elude 93.5% of the time.
Which means that */SR Scrappers will go from So-So Scrapper in PvP to squishier than a Blaster!
My MA/SR Scrapper is one of my favorite characters. I am an occasional PvPer, now I will not ever be able to take this character into a PvP zone. The */SR Scrapper will be as squishy as a Blaster but at least a blaster can use ranged attacks. The */SR Scrapper cannot, and since melee attacks generally do more damage than ranged attacks that means that the */SR Scrapper will take more damage faster than a Blaster. So like I said, */SR Scrappers become squishier than Blasters.
And no one can figure out why I'm not looking forward to Issue 9...
Defense is not working in PvP, especially for Heroes who face the two-hit Stalker AT's. Basically, any To-Hit buff is more than enough to break through 70% plus Defense 90-95% of the time. I will explain.
My BS/SR Scrapper has Parry, Dodge, Focused Fighting at maximum Defense slotting, so stacking 2 Parry's on a street mob grants about 70% defense to Melee attacks and I can easily keep 3 stacked. In comes a Stalker, hits Build Up, 90-95% successful hitting with AS, SR has no Heals so it's an instant win/defeat. Also means that your game mechanics for Defense don't work. Or it could be a Bug, but you should try this test because you are telling players that Defense is good when it is not.
And I don't need to tell you what this means to players with Force Field Defenders whose defense is much much lower. They might as well not even have a Force Field although at the level of PFF defense, buffed attacks are usually deflected.
Obviously PFF is too high, but perhaps a (Foe) Acc Minus effect needs to be added to the regular Defense mechanic since Accuracy Debuffing works fairly well.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
I think some Defender and Controller defenses should be increased especially in pvp zones with villains... most of those arch types stand no chance against ambushing villains such as stalkers and brutes especially with their hold powers.. Makes a player really hate villain toons..
I still don't think defense is working properly...
Why does toxic not have an attack tag?
Why does psi not have a positional tag?
Some defense sets REALLY get screwed over here because of this. Like positional based elude, which gets owned by some mob types that have nonpositional mind attacks or status effects.
Illusion decoys also seem to have nonpositional attacks, which is another big problem.
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This thread is solely for discussions regarding the the new defense scaling system. From the Issue 7 Training Room patch notes:
Modified PvE critter accuracy. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless if they have higher accuracy. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. Previously, a more accurate critter could circumvent much of your defense, but this will no longer happen. This change is designed to alleviate the disparity between Defense and Damage
resistance powers (for instance, a player with super reflexes will now be more effective against a high level critters, a boss or Arch villain) This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense. More accurate critters may have a greater chance at the extreme low end of the To Hit scale than previously due to this change. For instance, an Archvillain whose To Hit previously was set at the 5% minimum, will now have a 7.5% chance to hit. This change does not affect PvP.
All off topic posts will be removed. Please do not post bugs/feedback/balance issues before testing this content.
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Cricket:
The only problem with this is with ED in place, it cuts the defensive bonuses by 40% since the inherent defensive bonus is weaker than the other enhancements. So I propose you raise the enhancement bonus from 5%, 10%, 20% to 8.3%, 16.7%, 33.3%. This would allow us to have better defenses.