Official Thread for Defense Scaling Changes
By
Alexio_DeAmore,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 13:40 in Developers' Corner
Who knew Cuppa was such a number cruncher? And we thought she only crunched chocolate covered espresso beans!
I'm confused. What happens when multiple To Hit Debuffs apply or when a To Hit is there WITH a character with defense? Is that where the caps apply or do the caps apply at all stages?
Example using what you've provided:
Base To Hit + To Hit Buffs - To Hit Debuffs Defense capped at 5% or 95% * Accuracy (capped at 5% or 95%, again
(.5 + 0 - .4372 - .2) * 1.3 = X
(-.1372) * 1.3 = -1.7836
Now, is the cap applied at the end thus resulting in a .05 or 5% chance or is it applied to each stage before moving forward like so?
(.5 + 0 - .4372 -.2) * 1.3 = X
(-.1372) * 1.3 = [APPLY CAP]
.05 * 1.3 = .065 or 6.5%
I'm gathering that it's the one that gives 6.5% for a boss, but I'd just like to be sure. This helps us number crunchers so we know how many lucks are need(assuming the numbers on those get fixed 
)
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In the old system, the To Hit chance increased over level. A +1 level had a 1.05 modifier, +2 level 1.1 and +3 1.15. For example, the base to hit chance of a lieutenant +2 levels was 0.58*1.1 or 63.8%.
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Actually, although its somewhat moot now, I believe that in I6 and earlier, the modifiers worked like this:
BaseToHit + (Mod-1)
I.e. +1 was BaseToHit + (1.05-1) = BaseToHit + 0.05, +2 was BasetoHit + 0.10. Or if you prefer, +1 was +5% tohit, +2 was +10% tohit, etc.
I've had this confirmed to me many times.
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I'm confused. What happens when multiple To Hit Debuffs apply or when a To Hit is there WITH a character with defense? Is that where the caps apply or do the caps apply at all stages?
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1. 50% + AllToHitBuffs - AllToHitDebuffs - AllDefenseBuffs + AllDefenseDebuffs
2. Take number above, and apply 5% floor and 95% ceiling (if less than 5%, set to 5%; if more than 95%, set to 95%).
3. Take result from (2), and multiply by all accuracy terms. If you have one accuracy term, multiply by that. If you have two accuracy terms, multiply by each in turn. Do NOT add accuracy together. If you are dealing with a +2 Boss, multiply (2) by 1.3 (for the boss factor) and then by 1.2 (for the +2 factor). If you are dealing with a +2 Boss that is using thunder kick, multiply by 1.2, then 1.3, then 1.05 (for the martial arts accuracy bonus).
4. Take the result from (3), and apply the 5% floor and 95% ceiling again. You're done.
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I'm confused. What happens when multiple To Hit Debuffs apply or when a To Hit is there WITH a character with defense? Is that where the caps apply or do the caps apply at all stages?
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For the database minded:
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
LEAST(GREATEST(LEAST(GREATEST(0.5 + To Hit Buffs - To Hit Debuffs - Defense,
0.05),
0.95) * Accuracy * (1 + (Level Difference * .1)),
0.05),
0.95)
</pre><hr />
If you want to plug it into Excel replace greatest/least with max/min.
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(Base To Hit + To Hit Buffs - To Hit Debuffs Defense capped at 5% or 95%) * Accuracy capped at 5% or 95% again
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For those questioning when are the caps applied, from above the cap is processesed twice. Once after the overall To Hit has been calculated:
Base To Hit + To Hit Buffs - To Hit Debuffs Defense = Overall To Hit (capped)
Note that the Defense value will include any debuff's applied to the player.
And again once the Accuracy modifier has been applied:
Overall To Hit * Accuracy = Attack chance (capped)
NB: correction in the qoute, added brackets to indicate precedence
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I already mentioned this but I've continued to do some more testing and it's still a big issue:
Lucks. Anyone can floor PvE foes with two; SR/ninja can with one, and the SR passive defense is basically pointless past SOs if you carry enough lucks.
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Actually, it takes four lucks to 'floor anything'. Testing by several posters revealed that lucks provide only 12.5% per. This was confirmed by Castle.
Carry on.
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Personally, I don't see why one power alone (Build Up) should buff the to-Hit level to the point of exceeding top-tier defense-only skills. And defense-only trees have been seriously abused; with streakbreaker involved the maximum dodge rate you can get is rougly 87% effective.
Defense-only sets NEED to be able to dodge two dozen attacks without getting hit, because once they're hit it's painful. I can understand if someone was running Tactics and popped Build Up, or several Insights, to get a fair chance at piercing a high-defense power. And Bu + Tactics + Focused Accuracy is a combo of 3 powers that SHOULD be devastating. But what's the point if there's no "Armor Piercing" buffs to do the same to Resistance that To-Hit does for Defense? It makes it simply no contest which of the two is best to have.
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qft (to a point)
defense is a fun set, the variables make it that way due to its unexpectedness. that very same 'funness' about the set however drops off as a level of 'seriousness' is applied; like, oh, i don't know, say....
PVP.
defence runs at an even greater disadvantage over time versus any other secondary due to its own mechanics combined with the game mechanic 'streakbreaker'. if sr has a defense debuff protection, then doesn't it also make some sense to have an accuracy buff resist as well against the build up or aim moments? certainly not a complete protection as stacking should be relative, but the disparity requires a resolution as any other set excepting dark armour (although at least it has a heal) has a measure of controllable decline or regeneration such as 'dull pain'. it's been mentioned 'well, just get aid self'. which is true, however shoehorning 2 powers into any super reflex build is almost impossible until the later levels as the only options for replacement are the passives (your only resists of any type) or attacks. i'm sure that the devs have seen the varied threads by just about any one asking about super reflexes in the scrapper forums is told the same thing. there are only 2 considered skippable (quickness and evasion), the second shows at 35. obviously builds are personal things with a variety of options.
and while i always appreciate a good numbers arguement, the one number that fails to show in any calculation to defence that i've seen by the devs is the addition of 'streakbreaker' in the equation during any fight, which again, drops your defence.
my 2 inf, now time to get the coffee (yawn).
Kittens give Morbo gas.
Just a minor point here...
The 'streakbreaker' code ONLY affects your attacks vs. NPCs. Not your attacks vs. other players, not NPCs' attacks on you, not other players' attacks on you.
Kam
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Just a minor point here...
The 'streakbreaker' code ONLY affects your attacks vs. NPCs. Not your attacks vs. other players, not NPCs' attacks on you, not other players' attacks on you.
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thanks for the info, although it appears counter to other info i've seen posted, but have no time to look for and post right now. are we sure that streakbreaker is not a global mechanic?
Kittens give Morbo gas.
Hm. After research, it appears my memory has failed me, and I need to eat my words.
I was going by Castle's post here, which says
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The streakbreaker will force a hit if there has been a long series of misses (only for heroes)
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My faulty memory led me to interpret that as "only for heroes vs. NPCs", since I don't PvP all that much.
However.
After Castle's post, WeirdBeard came along and said this:
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Critters get the benefits of the system as well.
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SO: I was wrong. My apologies - and back to your bashing of the streakbreaker. 
Kam
Sorry, still not good enough. When any Blue sider who wants to can routinely hit me through well slotted toggles AND Overload, then something's wrong with Defense and/or the Hero side To-Hit. I might as well save myself the end and not run any toggles for all the good they do me.
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Further explanation - from the Devs.
Looking at a Lieutenant, it works out this way vs a target with no Defense:
Even Con = 0.5 * 1.15 = 57.5%
+1 = 0.5 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 63.25%
+2 = 0.5 * 1.15 * 1.2 = 69%
+3 = 0.5 * 1.15 * 1.3 = 74.75%
If the target had 20% Defense,it works out this way:
Even Con = 0.3 * 1.15 = 34.5%
+1 = 0.5 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 37.95%
+2 = 0.5 * 1.15 * 1.2 = 41.4%
+3 = 0.5 * 1.15 * 1.3 = 44.85%
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in this example you have compared a person who has defense in issue 7 vs a person that does not have defense in issue 7. What i havn't seen is how this will effect the rest of us. Can you post some numbers to compare how this will effect my blaster. Lets say i was fighting a lutenant in issue 6 with no defense at all VS the same lutenant in issue 7 with no defense at all. Am i more or less likely to get hit under this new system
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in this example you have compared a person who has defense in issue 7 vs a person that does not have defense in issue 7. What i havn't seen is how this will effect the rest of us. Can you post some numbers to compare how this will effect my blaster. Lets say i was fighting a lutenant in issue 6 with no defense at all VS the same lutenant in issue 7 with no defense at all. Am i more or less likely to get hit under this new system
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no change at all. issue 6, a Lieut had 57.5% tohit and zero acc to buff it. In Issue 7, that Lieut has 50% tohit and 15% acc. 50*1.15 = 57.5% final tohit.
this change only affects people using purples and def powers, and it makes them perform better for the most part.
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Am i more or less likely to get hit under this new system
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Interestingly, I actually forgot to have this question in the FAQ:
Q: If I have no defense, will I get hit more, or less often, in I7 than I6?
And the answer is:
A: against even level critters, you'll get hit at exactly the same rate in I7 relative to I6, if you have no defense. However, against +1 and higher, you'll get hit very slightly more frequently by LTs and Bosses in I7 than I6. A +2 Boss, for example, will hit you 78% of the time in I7. It was hitting you 75% of the time in I6. You're not likely to notice.
Maybe I should update the FAQ.
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Streakbreaker mainly applies to people with a decent chance to hit who keep missing, not to people with low chances to hit, so don't worry about it.
In my experience as a Brute defence based sets work fine except against FA and similar powers.
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3. Take result from (2), and multiply by all accuracy terms. If you have one accuracy term, multiply by that. If you have two accuracy terms, multiply by each in turn. Do NOT add accuracy together. If you are dealing with a +2 Boss, multiply (2) by 1.3 (for the boss factor) and then by 1.2 (for the +2 factor). If you are dealing with a +2 Boss that is using thunder kick, multiply by 1.2, then 1.3, then 1.05 (for the martial arts accuracy bonus).
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Wait, and here I thought I understood the new system. Weren't the +con modifiers supposed to be removed up to +5 or so? So a +1 Boss and a +4 Boss would have the same overall chance to hit a person with Defense in I7, and only after +5 would it get abruptly more dangerous again? Wasn't that supposed to be big part of what helped Defense to scale versus higher cons?
Where and how am I getting confused? Thanks to your many other informative posts, I thought I understood how the former +ToHit modifier for con level contributed to making life more difficult for Defense sets compared to the Resistance sets. But if that same exact modifier exists on Accuracy now, and it still begins at +1 con level, then what did we gain? Why did we go through this whole exercise?
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Ill work it out a little more fully here with the To Hit Formula. Taking that boss mentioned above, his To Hit would work out like this
(0.5 - 0.4372) * 1.3 = 0.0816 or 8.16%.
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This example does not take into account that the boss now has a .2 resists factor to tohit debuffs.
Even con boss with 2 SO in RI:
(0.5 - 0.4375*0.8) * 1.3 = 0.195 or 19.5%.
You should also probably note that ToHit debuff are also resistant by level, same example with a +2 boss
(0.5 - 0.4375*0.8*0.8) * 1.3 * 1.2 = 0.342 or 34.2%.
With 3 slotted RI:
(0.5 - 0.48*0.8*0.8) * 1.3 * 1.2 = 0.30 or 30.0%.
Edit: Before I7 ToHit debuffs were double-penalized for level difference. Now they are double-penalized for level difference and rank. Was this really warranted??
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3. Take result from (2), and multiply by all accuracy terms. If you have one accuracy term, multiply by that. If you have two accuracy terms, multiply by each in turn. Do NOT add accuracy together. If you are dealing with a +2 Boss, multiply (2) by 1.3 (for the boss factor) and then by 1.2 (for the +2 factor). If you are dealing with a +2 Boss that is using thunder kick, multiply by 1.2, then 1.3, then 1.05 (for the martial arts accuracy bonus).
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Wait, and here I thought I understood the new system. Weren't the +con modifiers supposed to be removed up to +5 or so? So a +1 Boss and a +4 Boss would have the same overall chance to hit a person with Defense in I7, and only after +5 would it get abruptly more dangerous again? Wasn't that supposed to be big part of what helped Defense to scale versus higher cons?
Where and how am I getting confused? Thanks to your many other informative posts, I thought I understood how the former +ToHit modifier for con level contributed to making life more difficult for Defense sets compared to the Resistance sets. But if that same exact modifier exists on Accuracy now, and it still begins at +1 con level, then what did we gain? Why did we go through this whole exercise?
</obviously-missing-something>
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Bosses hit everyone more often than minions do. +5s hit everyone more often than even cons. And that's what we want.
But if a Boss hit *everyone* 30% more often, that's pretty much like hitting everyone 30% harder right? That's fair to everyone, whether you have defense or not.
But in I6, that's not what happened. In I6 and earlier, instead of hitting us 30% more often, they instead hit us fifteen percentage points more often. What's the difference?
Compare a regen scrapper with zero defense to an SR scrapper with 30% defense. Against minions, the regen scrapper gets hit 50% of the time. The SR scrapper gets hit 20% of the time.
Now a boss comes along. In I6, he just added the number 15 to both of those numbers. So the regen gets hit 65% of the time, and the SR 35% of the time.
In proportional terms, the regen gets hit 65/50 = 1.3: 30% more often.
The SR: 35/20 = 1.75: 75% more often. Ouch.
In I7, that boss now has an accuracy buff instead. He just boosts the net tohit by 30% for everyone. So, he hits the regen scrapper 30% more often than minions do, from 50% of the time to 65% of the time. He also hits SR scrappers 30% more often than minions do: from 20% of the time, to 26% of the time.
A similar thing happens with higher conning critters. They hit more often, but *fairly* more often to everyone. A +2 hits everyone 20% more often whether you have defense or not. Which means everyone takes (on average) 20% more damage. That's how we measure "fair" for damage mitigation (everyone takes the same amount more damage).
The change was never supposed to make Bosses hit you just as often as minions. And it was never supposed to make +5s hit you just as often as evens. It was supposed to make the more accurate things equally more accurate against everyone, whether you have defense or not. In I6, the "more accurate things" were a little more accurate against the stuff with no defense, and *a lot* more accurate against the stuff with a lot of defense. In I7, they are still more accurate, just fairly so.
The one sentence version: accuracy is fair, tohit is not fair, so in I7 critters trade in their evil tohit buffs for accuracy buffs, but they still get to be more accurate than their near-sighted brethren.
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The one sentence version: accuracy is fair, tohit is not fair, so in I7 critters trade in their evil tohit buffs for accuracy buffs, but they still get to be more accurate than their near-sighted brethren.
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Hmm, I guess I get it. So the multiplicative Accuracy bonus gives them the same proportional advantage, whereas the additive ToHit bonus didn't.
Fair enough, but I wonder where I got the impression that the change was somehow expected to make higher cons (+1, +2) effectively the same as even cons versus Defense buffs or ToHit buffs, up to +5 or so? I'm certain I didn't make that up, but I haven't a clue what mistaken assertion I read. I remember wondering how that could possibly work given the formula as stated.
I guess I can see why some SRs would be a little disappointed, given that the overall to-hit floor for bosses, AVs, etc. isn't just 5% * (their rank modifier) but actually 5% * (their rank mod) * (their con mod) * (per-power mod). As someone whose current main is a Dark def, I can understand. I can see how it's mathematically fair, but it does mean that I'm still not protecting the team as much as I thought, or hoped.
Oh well. Thanks much for the explanation.
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Fair enough, but I wonder where I got the impression that the change was somehow expected to make higher cons (+1, +2) effectively the same as even cons versus Defense buffs or ToHit buffs, up to +5 or so? I'm certain I didn't make that up, but I haven't a clue what mistaken assertion I read. I remember wondering how that could possibly work given the formula as stated.
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Because a lot people kept saying it, many more than I could find to correct.
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I guess I can see why some SRs would be a little disappointed, given that the overall to-hit floor for bosses, AVs, etc. isn't just 5% * (their rank modifier) but actually 5% * (their rank mod) * (their con mod) * (per-power mod). As someone whose current main is a Dark def, I can understand. I can see how it's mathematically fair, but it does mean that I'm still not protecting the team as much as I thought, or hoped.
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The "new floor" (its not really new, its been this way since I4) really only affects you if your total +DEF and -ToHit exceeds 45%. If you used to be able to drive things like AVs (that didn't have inherent accuracy bonuses) all the way down to 5% before, well you won't be able to now. But for most reasonable values of defense and tohit debuff, I7 is better than I6.
Lets say you're facing off against a +1 AV. In I6, he had 80% base tohit. In I7, he has 50% base tohit, and 1.1 * 1.5 = 1.65 total accuracy.
If your total debuff strength was like -72% tohit or higher in I6 (wow), you could have debuffed that AV better in I6 than now in I7. If your debuff strength is less than that, you're better off in I7.
That's because in I7, once you hit 45% debuff, you've hit the floor, which for this particular AV is 1.65 * 5% = 8.25% In order to beat that in I6, you would have needed 80%-8.25% = 71.75% debuff strength or better.
These numbers are really the kind of thing you only see with Elude, MoG, and stacked bubbles (or highly stacked debuffs).
I get the feeling you'll be protecting your team better in I7 than I6, by a wide margin. Hope that helps.
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These numbers are really the kind of thing you only see with Elude, MoG, and stacked bubbles (or highly stacked debuffs).
I get the feeling you'll be protecting your team better in I7 than I6, by a wide margin. Hope that helps.
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And my personal favorite, Vengeance with some Defense SOs slotted. I actually slotted it that way in anticipation of the 50% base to-hit change in I7, and it doesn't disappoint. If I recall correctly (and read an accurate source), three Defense SOs put Defender Vengeance at almost 45%, plus whatever extra smidge I provide with Shadow Fall. One of the things I like about my Dark def is that although I can't always prevent someone from dying, the combo of Vengeance and Howling Twilight means he's very, very good at preventing disaster.
That does help, and it makes sense. Thanks very much for taking the time.
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so basically this means the defense effects the accuracy or the base defense....
if it effects the base defense thent he accuracy bonus is going to make higher level things actually do better andhte origianl problem will remain.
If it effects the accuracy then the defense will have a floor to it....meaning no matter what the enemies will hit you 50% of the time...whihc means basically everyother hit you will get hit....ergo the defense is in a worse standing then before.
So anywise which of those does it effect the accuracy or the base...
Also is there any chance to see how this effects the character blocking or defelcting or absorbing hits.....i noticed i had a power doing this when i turned it on....
In my opinion this would signify i was getting defense but something esle in addition.....
So anywise maybe i am totally off....
I do not know about scaling but my 40 Ice tank gets creamed when quartz is placed by DE. I am talking about a near 100% accuracy by boss's, LT's, minions and pets alike. I can "tank" a mob of 5 Boss's or I can get killed by 3 minions and some quartz. Thank you...
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Lets take Radiation Infection again. Its a Schedule "B" now; with 2 SOs, the net result would be 0.3123 * 1.4 = 0.4372.
Every single mob has now been given Accuracy to make it so that their base To Hit value is only .5 rather than the values you see above. In addition, higher ranks have an inherent resistance to To Hit Debuffs (.1 for Lts., .2 for Bosses, .3 for AVs).
Ill work it out a little more fully here with the To Hit Formula. Taking that boss mentioned above, his To Hit would work out like this
(0.5 - 0.4372) * 1.3 = 0.0816 or 8.16%.
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This example uses an even con boss where 0.5 is the base to hit, 0.4372 is the To-Hit Debuff and 1.3 is the boss accuracy modifier. A few lines above it theres a reference to a boss level To-Hit Debuff resistance of 0.2 that I don't see in there. Would the equation therefore then be:
(0.5 - (0.4372 * (1-0.2))) * 1.3 = 0.1953 or 19.53%
The resistance to To-Hit Debuffs seems pretty substantial if that is the case. If it is not and the natural resistance for higher-ranking enemies is calculated in a different fashion, what would that be?
Thank you very much for further enlightening us on these changes.
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