Official Thread for Defense Scaling Changes

Cricket_NA · 05-01-2006 01:40 PM

This thread is solely for discussions regarding the the new defense scaling system. From the Issue 7 Training Room patch notes:

Modified PvE critter accuracy. Defense powers will now work equally well against critters, regardless if they have higher accuracy. For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion. Previously, a more accurate critter could circumvent much of your defense, but this will no longer happen. This change is designed to alleviate the disparity between Defense and Damage
resistance powers (for instance, a player with super reflexes will now be more effective against a high level critters, a boss or Arch villain) This change has no effect on a player who does not have any Defense. More accurate critters may have a greater chance at the extreme low end of the To Hit scale than previously due to this change. For instance, an Archvillain whose To Hit previously was set at the 5% minimum, will now have a 7.5% chance to hit. This change does not affect PvP.

All off topic posts will be removed. Please do not post bugs/feedback/balance issues before testing this content.

EvilGeko · 05-01-2006 03:07 PM

Momemt of Glory needs to be changed. This power depends on the mobs being at 5% final to-hit. The defense bonus was formerly high enough to make that so. Now with the changes this is much less likely to happen. Only even conned minions can be capped at 5%. Every other rank of mob will be higher.

Since MoG is rarely needed fighting even cons this is a significant downgrade. Any additional damage is meaningful to MoG since the power does not allow healing or regeneration.

I recommend one of the following:

1. Remove the HP drop

2. Remove the -heal, but keep the -regen

3. Throw the power out and replace it with Overload

4. Throw the power out and make it an actual regen power

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

IIIusionist · 05-01-2006 03:10 PM

And by changed you mean it's actually useful?

EvilGeko · 05-01-2006 03:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And by changed you mean it's actually useful?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I'm saying they need to change MoG because the defense changes work out to a nerf for that power. While the defensive changes are positive for SR and other primarily defensive sets, this makes an already lackluster power weaker.

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

IIIusionist · 05-01-2006 03:17 PM

Ah, well I see you edited your post with info rather than just calling out a power.

Angus_Black · 05-01-2006 03:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3. Throw the power out and replace it with Overload

[/ QUOTE ]

That would make it a MOG

(H)Dark/Rad, Rad/Psi, Spine/Regen, Ice/EM, Psi/EM, Earth/FF,
(V)EM/NIN, Bots/FF, Fire/Rad,Fire/Fire, Earth/Fire, Grav/Energy

@Angus.Black

Lallendos · 05-01-2006 03:20 PM

I.... don't follow. The stated change doesn't sound like it does anything but help. Is there more change than that explained bycricket?

Raiven · 05-01-2006 03:27 PM

Sweet! This is very welcome news. Now it just makes being an EA Brute that much more fun! Perhaps now I can play on a difficulty higher than the lowest... I was always a little miffed how Resistance worked against everything equally (95% resistance to damage is 95% resistance to any damage; it doesn't get reduced except by debuff) while Defense could be debuffed AND reduced by a simple advantage in levels. Sounds cool, I'll get to testing it as soon as this patcher gets done.

Happy_Thoughts · 05-01-2006 03:31 PM

I asked this the first time this change was announced, but never saw an answer.

When facing a +6 enemy, will defense (and to-hit/accuracy debuffs) work at a similar level as they do now against a +6, or will they work at a similar level as they do now against a +1?

In other words, will there be a steep dropoff in effectiveness between a +5 and a +6, or will +6 be where a gradual decline in effectiveness begins?

Catwhoorg · 05-01-2006 03:36 PM

For those who dont know.

MoG in I6 puts everyone at 5% to hit.
In I7 versus bosses/AV the floor will be 7.5%

You get hit half as much again, and STILL cannot regen or heal.

@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617

glycerine · 05-01-2006 03:45 PM

While it is kind of a nerf, getting hit 2 times more (than issue6) in the tier 9 defense powers is not bad. In my 3 minutes of a tier 9 power, I'll get hit twice. Ok ...double that to 4.

WaffleSupreme · 05-01-2006 03:49 PM

scaling with the buff to passives Is total help for Super Reflexes. OMG

Futurias · 05-01-2006 03:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Momemt of Glory needs to be changed. This power depends on the mobs being at 5% final to-hit. The defense bonus was formerly high enough to make that so. Now with the changes this is much less likely to happen. Only even conned minions can be capped at 5%. Every other rank of mob will be higher.

Since MoG is rarely needed fighting even cons this is a significant downgrade. Any additional damage is meaningful to MoG since the power does not allow healing or regeneration.

I recommend one of the following:

1. Remove the HP drop

2. Remove the -heal, but keep the -regen

3. Throw the power out and replace it with Overload

4. Throw the power out and make it an actual regen power

[/ QUOTE ]

So you got noticiably more killed running MOG now?

Still here, even after all this time!

UberGuy · 05-01-2006 03:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
For those who dont know.

MoG in I6 puts everyone at 5% to hit.
In I7 versus bosses/AV the floor will be 7.5%

You get hit half as much again, and STILL cannot regen or heal.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYI, AVs have a higher base toHit than bosses. An even level AV will hit you 75% (7.5% floor) and an even level boss 65% (6.5% floor).

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

Cobaltix · 05-01-2006 04:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Momemt of Glory needs to be changed. This power depends on the mobs being at 5% final to-hit. The defense bonus was formerly high enough to make that so. Now with the changes this is much less likely to happen. Only even conned minions can be capped at 5%. Every other rank of mob will be higher.

Since MoG is rarely needed fighting even cons this is a significant downgrade. Any additional damage is meaningful to MoG since the power does not allow healing or regeneration.

I recommend one of the following:

1. Remove the HP drop

2. Remove the -heal, but keep the -regen

3. Throw the power out and replace it with Overload

4. Throw the power out and make it an actual regen power

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't agree more.

Fix this poor excuse for a power please. Thanks.

Sign It : http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes

EvilGeko · 05-01-2006 04:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
While it is kind of a nerf, getting hit 2 times more (than issue6) in the tier 9 defense powers is not bad. In my 3 minutes of a tier 9 power, I'll get hit twice. Ok ...double that to 4.

[/ QUOTE ]

For Elude and Overload and Kuji In Retsu it's not bad at all. For MoG an additional few hits is the difference between a faceplant and living.

For anyone going to troll my suggestion let me get this out of the way:

1. No I haven't extensively tested this and I couldn't although I will test it. Probabalistic powers like defense are better tested mathematically. If you don't agree please feel free to flame me, but it doesn't change the facts.

2. If you want to see a good discussion of the math, check out Arcanaville's very extensive test in the Scrapper forum. Cliff notes: A regen is better off not hitting MoG and sticking with their normal regen powers. Primarily this is because you spend too long in the buff without the ability to heal and with inadequate HP. My suggestions are meant to correct that.

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

FreelanceWizard · 05-01-2006 04:36 PM

I got to play with it briefly on my 45 Claws/SR character in between server crashes. I took on two even con Rikti bosses without Elude or inspirations and... only got hit twice. Everything else was "Dodged" (courtesy of the UI changes ). Either I was very lucky or, as I suspect, this change is actually very beneficial.

I'll do further testing later and post up more experiences, including some with my 28 SS/EA Brute.

Supermax · 05-01-2006 04:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't that mean that everything will have the same 5% chance to hit, regardless of whether they're a minion or AV? I mean....that's what that sentence says. And it's posted by a red name.

Are we not being told something?

UberGuy · 05-01-2006 04:57 PM

You need to read up on the various defense and accuracy threads.

The floor is no longer 5%. It's now 10% of the foe's base accuracy. So 6.5% for a +0 boss, 7.5% for a +0 AV, and so on, up to 9.5% "cap" on the floor.

Edited to not seem mean.

Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

Fidens · 05-01-2006 05:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Momemt of Glory needs to be changed. This power depends on the mobs being at 5% final to-hit. The defense bonus was formerly high enough to make that so. Now with the changes this is much less likely to happen. Only even conned minions can be capped at 5%. Every other rank of mob will be higher.

Since MoG is rarely needed fighting even cons this is a significant downgrade. Any additional damage is meaningful to MoG since the power does not allow healing or regeneration.

I recommend one of the following:

1. Remove the HP drop

2. Remove the -heal, but keep the -regen

3. Throw the power out and replace it with Overload

4. Throw the power out and make it an actual regen power

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't agree more.

Fix this poor excuse for a power please. Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT, now waiting on a dev response to tell us how much fun MOG
is for regen scrappers.

Fidens lvl 50 Katana/Regen Scrapper
Scarred Dream lvl 50 Ice/Dark Corrupter
Hephaestus II lvl 40 Fire/Thermal Corrupter
Evolution/Malevolence - Virtue

EvilGeko · 05-01-2006 05:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For instance, your defense powers will work equally well against a Boss or any critter up to 5 levels higher than you, as it does for an equal level minion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't that mean that everything will have the same 5% chance to hit, regardless of whether they're a minion or AV? I mean....that's what that sentence says. And it's posted by a red name.

Are we not being told something?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I thought at first too, but what's happened is instead of a to-hit buff for being higher level and/or higher rank, mobs now get an acc bonus. It's .1 for every level, plus higher cons get their former acc.

So formerly a +0 AV had a to-hit of 75%.

Now that AV has a to-hit of 50% and an accuracy bonus of .5

Assuming no defense that still leads to a 75% final chance to hit.

Make that AV +5 and his final accuracy is 95% (bounded from 100%)

So in Issue 6 this is how MoG would have treated these mobs (assume MoG three slotted for defense)

+0 AV = 75% - 124.8 (approx defense of MoG) = final to-hit of 5%
+5 AV = 100% - 124.8 = 5%

In Issue 7

+0 AV = 50% - 124.8 = -74.8 (bounded to 5%) * acc bonus 1.5 = 7.5%
+5 AV = 50% - 124.8 = -74.8 * 2 (1+level and rank bonus) = 10%

That's a substantial difference. It's not the highest either. There are a few specialized mobs (turrents and the like) that have extremely high to-hit in I6 that was still floored by the very high bonus of MoG. In Issue 7 slotting MoG for defense is a waste. You're stuck with the mobs acc bonus.

If I've done the math incorrectly, anyone feel free to correct me. I know I took some shorts, but I think the result is essentially correct.

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

Arcanaville · 05-01-2006 05:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Momemt of Glory needs to be changed. This power depends on the mobs being at 5% final to-hit. The defense bonus was formerly high enough to make that so. Now with the changes this is much less likely to happen. Only even conned minions can be capped at 5%. Every other rank of mob will be higher.

Since MoG is rarely needed fighting even cons this is a significant downgrade. Any additional damage is meaningful to MoG since the power does not allow healing or regeneration.

I recommend one of the following:

1. Remove the HP drop

2. Remove the -heal, but keep the -regen

3. Throw the power out and replace it with Overload

4. Throw the power out and make it an actual regen power

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Don't use MoG.

2. Use Reconstruction, a fast charging heal power.

3. Get Drunk.

4. Profit.

[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)

Arcanaville · 05-01-2006 05:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I asked this the first time this change was announced, but never saw an answer.

When facing a +6 enemy, will defense (and to-hit/accuracy debuffs) work at a similar level as they do now against a +6, or will they work at a similar level as they do now against a +1?

In other words, will there be a steep dropoff in effectiveness between a +5 and a +6, or will +6 be where a gradual decline in effectiveness begins?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would guess that starting at +6, critters are very likely to stop getting accuracy bonuses (which is how the I7 scaler works), and start getting tohit bonuses (which is how the I6 scaler works), without an abrupt change.

In this particular case, you should consider that a very very good guess.

[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)

EvilGeko · 05-01-2006 06:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Momemt of Glory needs to be changed. This power depends on the mobs being at 5% final to-hit. The defense bonus was formerly high enough to make that so. Now with the changes this is much less likely to happen. Only even conned minions can be capped at 5%. Every other rank of mob will be higher.

Since MoG is rarely needed fighting even cons this is a significant downgrade. Any additional damage is meaningful to MoG since the power does not allow healing or regeneration.

I recommend one of the following:

1. Remove the HP drop

2. Remove the -heal, but keep the -regen

3. Throw the power out and replace it with Overload

4. Throw the power out and make it an actual regen power

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Don't use MoG.

2. Use Reconstruction, a fast charging heal power.

3. Get Drunk.

4. Profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is my current strategy. I'm looking for a reason to get sober!

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

marqaha · 05-01-2006 06:07 PM

From Cricket's introduction:[ QUOTE ]
This thread is solely for discussions regarding the the new defense scaling system. From the Issue 7 Training Room patch notes
--snip--
All off topic posts will be removed. Please do not post bugs/feedback/balance issues before testing this content.

[/ QUOTE ]
Note that I added the bold for emphasis.

From Evil Geko[ QUOTE ]

1. No I haven't extensively tested this and I couldn't although I will test it. Probabalistic powers like defense are better tested mathematically. If you don't agree please feel free to flame me, but it doesn't change the facts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, why are we debating MOG instead of testing the defense scaling?

Meet my characters: Marqaha's Managerie
Adversity/Animosity: Strength through Diversity. Respect and Fun.