Official Thread for Defense Scaling Changes
By
Alexio_DeAmore,
Posted on: 2006-05-01 13:40 in Developers' Corner
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I read the guide a few pages in this thread but have a stupid question. Am I right in that this in no way affects the double ding that acc debuff and to-hit debuff powers get (as level increases your power loses it's effect and the critter to-hit increases)?
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Yes, this is the effect of the purple patch: your tohit drops when attacking higher level critters, which reduces the chance for a debuff to land in the first place (unless its autohit), and reduces the effectiveness of all your effects, including damage and debuff strength. These effects are completely unaffected.
Critters got 50% tohit and some accuracy - like accuracy enhancements - to compensate. This has the *side effect* of improving the scalability of defense. But no actual mechanical change was made: everything "works" as it did before.
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Just to confirm, so the acc and to-hit debuffs are straight applications to the formula you've included in your guide? That is, assuming an even con / no purple patch side effects, a 50% to-hit combined with a 25% to-hit debuff is altered to a 37.5% to-hit and then used in the formula (same for acc debuff)? I'd like to take the work you did and make a quick spreadsheet for the values for minion/lt/boss/av and scale it with level (0, +1, +2) to show see how the values end up.
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I'm not sure what you mean. A 50% base tohit attacker that is hit by a 25% tohit debuff has a net to hit of 25%, assuming the tohit debuff isn't somehow resisted (and I don't know anything that resists tohit debuffs), or degraded by the purple patch. The I7 change did not change any of the math or how it works.
What it did was change the critters - the NPCs. Originally, some had base 50% tohit (i.e. minions) and some had 75% tohit (i.e. AVs). A 25% tohit debuff subtracted 25% from each, so the minion would be at 25%, and the AV would be at 50% net tohit.
In I7, those critters trade their inherent tohit buffs for accuracy. So the minion is still 50%, but the AV is now base 50%, and 1.5 acc (what some people would call +50% acc). A -25% tohit debuff still brings the minion down to 25%, but it now brings the AV down to 1.5 x (50% - 25%) = 1.5 x 25% = 37.5%.
Thats for AVs. If it was a boss, the boss would be base 50% tohit and 1.3 acc, and the debuff would reduce him to 1.3 x (50% - 25%) = 1.3 x (25%) = 32.5%
Tohit debuffs are becoming stronger against things that in I7 used to have higher base tohit, because the tohit debuffs get to act first, before accuracy.
Its important to note that only INHERENT tohit increases due to RANK and LEVEL are being affected by I7. "Buffs" and "Debuffs" in the conventional sense are totally unaffected by the I7 change. If a critter runs tactics, thats a tohit buff, and it works in I7 exactly the same way it works now in I6 (of course, because the critters now have accuracy, the tohit buffs of tactics would be modified by their inherent accuracy also = but the math works the same in I6 and I7). And it does nothing specifically to alter player tohit debuffs - they are exactly the same in I7 as they are in I6, its just that now they are striking critters with lower base tohit and higher accuracy, instead of low accuracy and higher base tohit. That makes their effects different (usually stronger) but tohit debuffs (player or critter) haven't themselves been touched or scaled in any way.
People are talking about tohitdebuffs "changing" in I7 and getting confused. Let me try to put this into perspective. In I3, prior to the addition of the intermediate floor in tohit, tohit was only floored once - at the end. It wasn't floored twice like it is now.
So, lets say you're a perma-elude or perma-MoG scrapper, and you have enough HOs to sink a ship, and something like 300% defense or something crazy. Basically, unless you face off against something else with massive buffing, your defense is going to drive their tohit past 5% and into deep negative territory. Now, the 5% floor will apply, so they will always have a 5% chance to hit you. But if they turn on tactics, that will turn -135% tohit to -125% tohit, which is meaningless. And if they 6-slot dmg/acc HOs, that will add 300% accuracy, on top of a negative number, so you'd just be turning -135% tohit into -540% tohit, making it actually worse.
In such a situation, I might say that ultra high defense turns off your accuracy, and turns off your tohit buffs. But in actuality, it does nothing of the kind. Your accuracy and tohit buffs are working exactly the same way they always worked. They just no longer do anything *useful*.
Player tohit buffs and debuffs are going to work in exactly, precisely the same way in I7 that they do in I6. They aren't being "scaled" in that sense of the word. Only critter base tohit is changing (everything is now 50%) and critter accuracy is changing (if they were higher than 50% in I6, they'll get accuracy to compensate). Tohit debuffs will be hitting critters that are different in I7 than I6, and that means - obviously - they will have somewhat different net effects in I7 than I6. But they are not changing. Their *targets* are changing. But a -25% tohit debuff in I6 is going to be a -25% tohit debuff in I7.
If you want to chart someting, you could chart the net effect of a -25% tohit debuff against minions, LTs, Bosses, and AVs, or against +0s, +1s, +2s, etc. The *net* effect will be different than I6, because of the critter changes. But just keep in mind when you are doing the calculations that the -25% debuff works the same way in I7 that it does in I6: base tohit minus 25%, and then times accuracy. In I7, base tohit and accuracy are different for critters than in I6, so those numbers change. But the tohit debuff and the way the numbers work stays the same.
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Actually, upon re-reading it, it looks like he just was checking the numbers, which may have been changed in error - especially since he didn't know about the changes in his first post in that topic.
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That would be a reasonable interpretation of what happened.
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Regardless of whether or not the 1/3 buff to the SR passives was intentional, it was an improvement to a low-powered set, which for me at least made the game feel a touch more fun.
I don't go planning my set out perfectly in advance, I create on concept, but it seems to me that nobody who plans the perfect set wants to touch these powers.
*sigh* I'm way off topic, aren't I?
Black Starbeam - The Reciprocators
Making money, not earning it.
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Regardless of whether or not the 1/3 buff to the SR passives was intentional, it was an improvement to a low-powered set, which for me at least made the game feel a touch more fun.
I don't go planning my set out perfectly in advance, I create on concept, but it seems to me that nobody who plans the perfect set wants to touch these powers.
*sigh* I'm way off topic, aren't I?
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I take them. I'm not a min/maxer, but I also advocate taking them as well. Although many SR scrappers would dispute my opinion on their worth, not many would call it an uninformed opinion. So you can add me to the nobody list if anyone asks.
Especially for stalkers that are often stacking both hide and stealth on their SR defenses, not taking the passives is bordering on insane.
Not that I don't think SR needs a buff, but I'm not going to lie about my opinion of the strength of the passives to try to get one.
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This seems the best place to put it.
According to the latest (5-10) patchnotes, the SR passives buff has been removed.
o.O
I was pretty happy with the buff. I wonder what made them decide to remove it. Wasn't it there to better balance it with /Nin?
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*sigh*
I guess I won't be dusting off my MA/SR anytime soon ....
Sign It : http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Regardless of whether or not the 1/3 buff to the SR passives was intentional, it was an improvement to a low-powered set, which for me at least made the game feel a touch more fun.
I don't go planning my set out perfectly in advance, I create on concept, but it seems to me that nobody who plans the perfect set wants to touch these powers.
*sigh* I'm way off topic, aren't I?
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I take them. I'm not a min/maxer, but I also advocate taking them as well. Although many SR scrappers would dispute my opinion on their worth, not many would call it an uninformed opinion. So you can add me to the nobody list if anyone asks.
Especially for stalkers that are often stacking both hide and stealth on their SR defenses, not taking the passives is bordering on insane.
Not that I don't think SR needs a buff, but I'm not going to lie about my opinion of the strength of the passives to try to get one.
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Agreed, Removing those buffs will not result in me taking them out of my build. I have every intention of getting all three and keeping them. I like the scaling resistance and I like the "always on" Defense buff.
I still liked that buff though.
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I take them. I'm not a min/maxer, but I also advocate taking them as well.
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* Reads Arcanaville's multiple posts using statistical analysis too complicated for the devs to bother with to divine whether his powers are actually giving the bonus he already browbeat the devs to find out.*
Umm... yes, you are a min/maxer. Yessir you are. No doubt about it. Min/maxing isn't all about uberizing your characters.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Ran some missions in granville on Ruthless with my EM/EA Brute, as before he performed will. Noticed a very nice change with the +2's and bosses. Much better survivability.
Flip side, he is still horrible in PVP. Abyssmal even. 1v1 testing vrs a spines/regen, a inv/ss tank and a fire./kin troller.
Overload off, Spines/regen destroyed me in 5 attacks. He never missed once. Was running all sheilds, including energy cloak and combat jumping, but overload. All three slotted 40++SO's.
Overload on, lasted about 10 secs longer. He was hitting so often I only got my aid self offf once without being interrupted.
vs the tank, longer fight but KO blow got through and he mopped me up. Fight only lasted longer as he did less damage. He was hitting me around 85% of the time.
vs the troller he kited and kited and stacked slows and siphoned speed. Again he was hitting 80-85% of the time. Was a closer fight but every time I hit with energy transfer he would heal and kite some more. A passing scrapper finished me off.
In the gank base camping situation it was even worse. Had no lasting survivability.
Devs, great job on the PVE end but the PVP side needs huge work still. It still feels like a defense based set might as well not even have armors.
Was this RV PvP?
If it was in RV then the /Regen probably had Focused Accuracy.
The SS Tanker would have had Rage, which is pretty much like having FA for toHit purposes.
So, yeah, those guys would be nasty against you one-on-one.
Remember, nothing is different about how defense sets work in PvP. In fact, they've made them work in PvE like they've worked in PvP for a good while.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Was this RV PvP?
If it was in RV then the /Regen probably had Focused Accuracy.
The SS Tanker would have had Rage, which is pretty much like having FA for toHit purposes.
So, yeah, those guys would be nasty against you one-on-one.
Remember, nothing is different about how defense sets work in PvP. In fact, they've made them work in PvE like they've worked in PvP for a good while.
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That would be the problem. He has always been sub par in PVP nothing changed there. My SS/DA brute is 5x the PVP build as my Em/EA and that is without the Tier 9 Super Power like Overload. It still feels like defenses just aren't balanced in PVP like resitance. Powers like FA and rage and debuffs just seem to kill the concept.
I was looking foreward to the Passives buff on SR... After all, Super reflexes is supposed to be the absolute best set for defense, the way that Stone armor (with granite) is for Resistance... Seems kinda silly for there to only be a 7.5% (unenhanced) benefit over other Defense sets...
I'm guessing that the change was to stop stalkers from being over-powered when they could stack hide with stealth and the passives to make it all worth-while, but why not leave the buff for scrappers only? That would appease the "heroes get no love" arguments too...
I was quite happy to see the change hit test, and am now rather disappointed to see it leave, And I hope that the Devs will reconsider, or find a compromise.
My thoughts on Defense Scaling changes:
PvE
1) Changes are good and provided better survivability for defensive-based sets
2) SR should not have had its Passives lowered after receiving the 1/3 buff. SR has way too many powers that offer redundant defenses and the Passives are WAY too low. Presently, a Defender can provide an entire group, including himself a base of 4% defense running Manuevers. It takes a SR Scrapper three Passive Powers to gain equivalent protection for themselves. A Stalker isn't even granted a passive for AOE, but runs Hide to help (3 powers again).
PvP
High level PvP Def-based characters are hurting. There are too many skills to CUT THROUGH Defense.
To put it simply, if there was a skill called Armor Piercing and it gave a bonus to Acc, Perception, and Cut Resistances in Half, the world would be outraged. Furthermore, if there were skills called Bombard and Penetrate and they offered a buff to Dmg and cut Resistances in half, the community would be appalled.
Well, that's how Defense based characters feel when facing Focused Accuracy, Aim and Build Up. These powers cripple defense based characters and debuffs only compound the problem.
In summary, Defensive sets require a bump in PvP. However, the fix isn't a decimal point, it is a GLOBAL CHANGE that requires the addition of new powers or the nerfing of current powers.
Cheers,
SUN
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In summary, Defensive sets require a bump in PvP. However, the fix isn't a decimal point, it is a GLOBAL CHANGE that requires the addition of new powers or the nerfing of current powers.
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This is why the I7 Critter Accuracy Scaler is a good thing to put in now, so people mainly interested in PvE don't have to wait forever for a perfect solution that fixes PvP balance (which is probably an albatross).
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on test i swapped out the passives on my nb/sr stalker for stimulant/aidself, and noticed immediately a much longer longevity
oh well, every set's gotta have some skippable powers so you can fill holes with power pools, right? lol
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on test i swapped out the passives on my nb/sr stalker for stimulant/aidself, and noticed immediately a much longer longevity
oh well, every set's gotta have some skippable powers so you can fill holes with power pools, right? lol
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The problem is that if you make the passives from SR obsolete, Ninjutsu becomes a strictly better set. Only two toggles to run and a host of unility powers. Those passives need to be worthile!
(I havn't analyzedif they really are, however)
yeah too bad i cant swap SR to nin now, my char's lvl 40
oh well, i still get quickness 
im also not taking elude, since it (supposedly) got nerfed, i already had it and it used a lot of end, and running with it off i live about the same time, so i'll respec out of it with i7
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I asked this the first time this change was announced, but never saw an answer.
When facing a +6 enemy, will defense (and to-hit/accuracy debuffs) work at a similar level as they do now against a +6, or will they work at a similar level as they do now against a +1?
In other words, will there be a steep dropoff in effectiveness between a +5 and a +6, or will +6 be where a gradual decline in effectiveness begins?
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The change is only in effect for up to +5 from what they said long ago. Sorry, but a +6 foe is still gonna own you.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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im also not taking elude, since it (supposedly) got nerfed, i already had it and it used a lot of end, and running with it off i live about the same time, so i'll respec out of it with i7
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Huh? Elude (and Kuji-in Retsu, the ninjitsu version) has +recovery. Its a click and costs no end to run beyond its initial activation cost. It restores END all the while it runs.
And if there's one thing SR scrappers and stalkers notice, its the day they get Elude.
Are you thinking about Evasion instead?
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yeah thats the one
I already mentioned this but I've continued to do some more testing and it's still a big issue:
Lucks. Anyone can floor PvE foes with two; SR/ninja can with one, and the SR passive defense is basically pointless past SOs if you carry enough lucks.
i could forego any attacks and just pop a bunch of reds and use brawl, whats your point?
that's not the same thing. Various attacks have debuffs and offer different levels of damage. Defense, however, is simply a matter of dodging.
Personally, I don't see why one power alone (Build Up) should buff the to-Hit level to the point of exceeding top-tier defense-only skills. And defense-only trees have been seriously abused; with streakbreaker involved the maximum dodge rate you can get is rougly 87% effective.
Defense-only sets NEED to be able to dodge two dozen attacks without getting hit, because once they're hit it's painful. I can understand if someone was running Tactics and popped Build Up, or several Insights, to get a fair chance at piercing a high-defense power. And Bu + Tactics + Focused Accuracy is a combo of 3 powers that SHOULD be devastating. But what's the point if there's no "Armor Piercing" buffs to do the same to Resistance that To-Hit does for Defense? It makes it simply no contest which of the two is best to have.
Further explanation - from the Devs.
There have always been some issues with Defense and Resistance. The former was affected by level differences, while the latter was not. For example, an even con would have a base to hit value of %, while a Boss 2 levels higher than a player would have a %. But if a player had damage resistance, it would apply the same discount to damage regardless of the mobs level.
In order to balance the playing field, we decided to give mobs the same base To Hit value instead. Now all mobs, regardless of level or rank, have a base to hit of 50%. The only difference between ranks of mobs (boss, lieutenant and minion) and levels is the Accuracy.
In order to decipher this a little bit easier, lets take a look at the to hit formula.
Base To Hit + To Hit Buffs - To Hit Debuffs Defense capped at 5% or 95% * Accuracy (capped at 5% or 95%, again)
In the case of the Base To Hit Defense, the value is floored at 0.05 or 5%. It cant go below that. Similarly, the result after being multiplied by Accuracy cant go higher than 0.95 or 95%
In the old system, the To Hit chance increased over level. A +1 level had a 1.05 modifier, +2 level 1.1 and +3 1.15. For example, the base to hit chance of a lieutenant +2 levels was 0.58*1.1 or 63.8%.
After the I7 change
Instead of changing the base to hit chance, we instead are changing Accuracy. Take an even con boss: his To Hit is only .5, but his Accuracy is 1.3. The net effect is that an even level boss still hits 65% of the time against someone without Defense, but with Defense, the equation changes substantially.
Lets take Radiation Infection again. Its a Schedule "B" now; with 2 SOs, the net result would be 0.3123 * 1.4 = 0.4372.
Every single mob has now been given Accuracy to make it so that their base To Hit value is only .5 rather than the values you see above. In addition, higher ranks have an inherent resistance to To Hit Debuffs (.1 for Lts., .2 for Bosses, .3 for AVs).
Ill work it out a little more fully here with the To Hit Formula. Taking that boss mentioned above, his To Hit would work out like this
(0.5 - 0.4372) * 1.3 = 0.0816 or 8.16%.
Whereas previously, the To Hit chance had a level modifier, now that applies to Accuracy. +1 level is 1.1, +2 1.2, and +3 1.3.
Looking at a Lieutenant, it works out this way vs a target with no Defense:
Even Con = 0.5 * 1.15 = 57.5%
+1 = 0.5 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 63.25%
+2 = 0.5 * 1.15 * 1.2 = 69%
+3 = 0.5 * 1.15 * 1.3 = 74.75%
If the target had 20% Defense,it works out this way:
Even Con = 0.3 * 1.15 = 34.5%
+1 = 0.5 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 37.95%
+2 = 0.5 * 1.15 * 1.2 = 41.4%
+3 = 0.5 * 1.15 * 1.3 = 44.85%
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If the target had 20% Defense,it works out this way:
Even Con = 0.3 * 1.15 = 34.5%
+1 = 0.5 * 1.15 * 1.1 = 37.95%
+2 = 0.5 * 1.15 * 1.2 = 41.4%
+3 = 0.5 * 1.15 * 1.3 = 44.85%
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I think those 0.5's are typos and should be 0.3's correct? For base 50% to hit - 20% defense?
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
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I read the guide a few pages in this thread but have a stupid question. Am I right in that this in no way affects the double ding that acc debuff and to-hit debuff powers get (as level increases your power loses it's effect and the critter to-hit increases)?
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Yes, this is the effect of the purple patch: your tohit drops when attacking higher level critters, which reduces the chance for a debuff to land in the first place (unless its autohit), and reduces the effectiveness of all your effects, including damage and debuff strength. These effects are completely unaffected.
Critters got 50% tohit and some accuracy - like accuracy enhancements - to compensate. This has the *side effect* of improving the scalability of defense. But no actual mechanical change was made: everything "works" as it did before.
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Just to confirm, so the acc and to-hit debuffs are straight applications to the formula you've included in your guide? That is, assuming an even con / no purple patch side effects, a 50% to-hit combined with a 25% to-hit debuff is altered to a 37.5% to-hit and then used in the formula (same for acc debuff)? I'd like to take the work you did and make a quick spreadsheet for the values for minion/lt/boss/av and scale it with level (0, +1, +2) to show see how the values end up.