AtomicQuin

The problem is to turn /EA into something remotely playable without massive IO investment.

I have be rolling my Night Widow of late, surrently LV42. Also a defense based armor set (which after 40 levels or /EA made me apprehesive) but does it ever blow /EA out of the water in survivability.

Positional vs Typed defense and a much easier time getting those defenses up to a meaningful level without IOs.
The scaling resists based on health mitigates the 2 shot syndrome /EA suffers from.

Elude>>>Overload.

I have been soloing relentless on my NW since I got foresight and never once felt I needed to dip into medicine for Aid Self. +2 Bosses or EB no worries at all. Hell I am actually thinking of dropping Elude as I find I just don't need and hardly ever use it.

On my /EA brute Vicious is a stretch and Relentless a pipe dream. With out the aid self crutch and using Overload for anything over a LT I don't think even Vicious would be doable.

Thorizdin, you guys are the exception more than the rule. I've played with your guild and you guys rock!. You're built for PVP and focus on it. The 5-6 corruptor and 2-3 Dom team is one of the best, if not THE best PVP team setups in the game, hero or villian. I think the only hero team to compare would be a mixture of defenders and blasters or controllers and blasters.

With stacked kinetic,sonic and thermal buffs, my Dom is a monster! I have also found success in reasonably even number situtations with me, Paris and another dom. We tend to jump around like squirrels on crack, but it works.

The biggest difference I found last night to other nights on test was the absence of the IOP buffs I had been enjoying as part of the SG I was in on test. Most specifically the mez protection buffs. Its a whole other world when I didn't have to worry about being stunned left right and center by /em tanks and blasters, or MA scrappers. Now the problem with this is PVP centric SG's will persue and defend these items of power. Casual SG's will not.

Now, none of this will stop me from playing my Dom in RV on live. The added damage of having my tier 9 attack makes killing other squishies much easier. As well I do find Blaze still drops toggles on a reasonbly frequent basis. Incinerate, well not so much.

I will be skipping the PPP's as I want to work stealth and invis into my build. Now, if they add some mez protection into the Patron armors, I might consider it.

On a PVE topic. I have been following the AV/GM change thread closely. With the purple triangles of Dom doom already in place I was already having my doubts about our inclusions in the AV/Hero teams that, if COV follows the COH pattern, will be the norm in the 40+ game.

The feeling I am getting is that with the boost in regen rates on the AV/Heros a -regen set like rad is almost a must have to overcome the regen rate.

Now on the hero side this makes a /red troller even more popular. Even if they can't hold a AV they can debuff it and buff their team. On the villian side, if we can't hold an AV to over come its regen that way, we also can't buff/debuff much and if a group of brutes/mms and corruptors can't beat the regen rate a Doms attacks aren't going to add much.

So here is what I would like to test. How many Doms does it take to overcome the triangles and hold an AV/Hero and is it even possible? With Domination up and down. Is there a breaking point at which you need X amount of doms to get close to a perma hold situtation, but will that many Doms make a team not damage heavy enough to take down the held AV.

Any other doms on test willing to give this a try? I have the infernal mish on my 40 dom to test against.

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A minor point that's bugging the everloving [censored] out of me.

Stop saying a Dominator + X is better than just X as if it's some inherent boon to being a Dominator. ANYTHING is better with more numbers.

ANYTHING.

A Mastermind who doesn't spec in his pets and a Stalker is better than just a Stalker. [censored] Jenkins and a Stalker is better than just a Stalker. It's not a [censored] selling of Dominators that if you pair them up with another AT, things don't get worse.

Breathe. Two. Three. Four.

Okay, continue.

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Well seeing as a lot of people are saying the Dom's don't bring any benefit to a team, its a valid point to show examples of where they do.

Being as COX PVP is balanced around teams, showing how a Dom can be successful and bring benefits to a team is probably one of the most important topics for PVP Doms.

If you want to argue around in circles that a Dom will have a hard time soloing a lv50 Broadsword/regen scrapper with laser beam eyes, feel free. Won't do you any good as the PVP design is not balanced around that.

Come on over to Guardian, I am in Sirens everynight. I'm averaging 5-9 SO's a night in bounty and am sitting at over 200 rep.

Again, I am by no means saying Doms are the Uber AT in PVP, and yes I wouldn't kick more damage,more HP,mez protection or longer duration, higher mag holds out of bed, but then what AT would. Do I face plant, of course. Do break frees bother me, of course they do.

Perhaps I am placing to much emphasis on my primary, but the slow and -recharge of Ice is an effective debuff. If you are in my 3 slotted slow AA aura, on top of my Ice Slick and hit with my 3 slotted slow shiver, unless you have TP you are going no where and attacking nothing. That is an effective debuff.

What I am saying is that at this point in time, on live, I am experiencing success with my Dom in PVP in a teamed environment.

YMMV.

That may have been true in the first couple of months, and yes Stalkers are the most solo friendly PVP AT inn the game on both sides. But and this is a big but, once people figured to how to counter stalkers most good PVP players do not get suprised by them any more.

The majority of toons have Super Jump as a travel power, the best way to avoid getting nailed is to be in constant movement. Dom's can combat that tactic using holds,slows.

Most hero players take tactics to spot a stalker before they get to close. Im sure its nice to be able to see defeat coming when you are held and place and the swarm of my stalkers are descending on you.

Again Dom+Stalker> solo stalker. This doesn't say a solo stalker is not effective, we know they are. What it says is that having a AT that compliments the most prevelent villian PVP AT is a good thing. Also, don't over look the crits out of hide a stalker gets on a held foe.

_Ilr_, I'm not saying Doms are perfect or couldn't still use some help, but they are not the PVP gimp you are implying. The AT can and has been shown to be effective in PVP, and it does bring benefits to a team environment. With our LV38 powers+domination plus any buffs we may get from teammates we do provide decent damage as well. My blaze slotted with 3 43 dam SO's +domination+fiery embrace is pushing 270 on a squishy plus follow up DOT of a couple ticks of 20. Sure its nots broadsword scrapper damage but its not totally horrible either.

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So if the right combo of AT's aren't in a zone when a Dom enters, shoulld they just leave? PvP should be easy, fun and quick. The changes to Domination should help, but the fact that active Defenses don't work in PvP is very evident. A non-aligned Dominator (coming in already on a team) will still be like the last kid picked in P.E. class, a pity pick-up at best.

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All you need is one stalker and a Dom can be successful in PVP.

The last kid to get picked in P.E. is the kid no one knows. In any PVP game, RL or game life you need to make a reputation for yourself. If you put in the time and effort it will payoff.

All it took for me on live on Guardian was showing a couple of stalkers that dom+stalker >solo stalker, and it was easy. Send a couple of tells to some stalkers asking if they want free and easy rep. If so follow me. Hold a blapper or two for them to AS. Then tell them to imagine me doing this all over the zone and calling out the held target in team. Bingo! Word gets around. I have been PVP'n my dom in Sirens for a couple weeks. The first week was hard, but now most of the regular stalkers are eager to team with me. Same with the brutes and MM's.

Most people are just not familiar with what a Dom can do, so ya you need to prove to them you are an asset. I personally have no problem with that. I would rather people are teaming with me for my skills and what I bring than getting invites because I have the uber FoTM build.

12hrs in Sirens 220 rep and counting.

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I just gotta throw my bit in here in total agreements that while Dom's may now perform with some measure of success on a good team in RV, they still offer the least of any villain AT to a team and are likely only be invited last, or rather if there is an extra spot open and no one else is looking for a team. And I think that's true for both PvP AND PvE. The only unique thing we offer any team is 90 seconds of domination, especially post 40 where most AT's have access to single target holds and others have access to aoe soft controls.

In PvP I think we can all agree that it's the ssingle target mez powers that matter. Soft aoe power likes fears and slows can be useful, especially the slows, but aoe holds are near pointless. No group is going to bunch together for 'em, the aoe holds have very short durations and very long recharges. Essentially, in PVP our aoe powers are good for an end expensive but quick extra stack on that tanker or scrapper, and not much else.

But, as Czar pointed out, some corr's can stack stingle target holds far better than any Dom. And Ice/Dark Corr can have three ST holds in Warburg and four in RV. No Dom even has two unless you count Mind having TK. EM brutes and stalkers can stack disorients like it's going out of style.

So I've been asking this since I7 went to test, and I'm going to keep asking it till someone gives a reasonable answer.... What do Dominators offer a team other than 90 seconds of Domination?

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Dayraven, Do you play a dom?In PVP? What are your primary and secondarys?

What does a Dom bring outside of domination? ST Holds (with a higher mag,quicker recharge and longer duration than any corruptor) debuffs in some sets, damage ranged and melee, best toggle dropping % in the game, and then for 90 sec we get the best self buff in the game.

Domination is up on a regular basis on test in RV/Sirens. On a good team you will be popping it, and popping it and popping it.

On live while I rarely get domination up in PVP Doms can help turn the tide of a battle or a zone. Got blapper problems, call a dom. Got Stormie problems, call a dom, scrappers, tanks, khelds call a dom. I don't wait for invites I craft my own teams.

BUt if you have that much of an issue, Don't play them. The less doms in PVP the easier it is for the rest of us to sneak up on the energy blaster and call in our stalkers.

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Whether you want to believe me or not is your choice. I can say that Doms are worth having on PvP teams. Doms on good teams do quite well, we ran with 3 last night, 2 VG members and a pickup and did very well in RV till our /Thermal ran into network problems.

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I was that pickup last night playing my Ice/Fire Dom, Glacier Mistress. It was a thing of beauty I'm telling you. I teamed with LoTD for about 1/2hr or so. Everything and I mean everything fell to our group. Tanks, scrappers,blapper trollers. I was building domination so fast it was crazy. Popped it 4 or 5 times in that 1/2hr. I'm gonna miss teaming with LoTD when I7 hits as they aren't on my server.

The thing I have taken from this as a player is: COX PVP is balanced around teams. Trying to fight this is futile and counter productive. I have done it myself, but carping about the PVP capabilites of a solo Dom is pointless. They were never meant to be solo. No AT is. Even Stalkers benefit from a team environment. How much easier is it to AS a held and helpless foe than someone jumping all over the map?

PVE wise I have never felt gimped as a Dom. Running missions on the test server and it is even better. The quicker recharge on Domination is making a difference to me.

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Even with Psi and FoN they are going to need

A) Perception buffs
B) Healing
C) Fortitude
D) Mez protection
E) Slow/Port protection

etc. Nobody is saying the PPPs are as good as the hero APPs. We are simply stating that dominators are now strong enough to be utilized on good PvP teams, where before they were a handicap.

I don't recall any AT yet that I wasn't able to hold eventually in RV when domination was up. And with speed boosts, that is a good percentage of the time.

As far as two doms being better than one, well damn you should be happy. Before I7 they would have been considered 2 gimpy handicaps for the team, now they are an asset.

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Matt Miller - the Lead Designer of Heroes and Villains - introduces patron powers in part one of a five part series

MMORPG.com: In terms of balance, is there an equivalent power set available to the heroes in CoH, or is this a villainous advantage?

Matt Miller: The Patron Powers are stronger and more powerful than the “equivalent” powers in City of Heroes (the Ancillary Power Pools), because there is less diversification and the fact that Patron choices are permanent alterations to your character.

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hmm, which power is it in our PPP's that is more powerful than Force of Nature or indomitable will exactly?

As to the ICE/ICe that cant solo on villianous I too would like to see the build. You would have to ignore your entire secondary. Solo PVE has never been an issue to me. PVP can be a real pain some nights and glorious some others. Usually the difference is haveing a corruptor around handing out mex protection.

I have discovered one thing, STUN>holds. Why, cause there is no need to stack stuns. Either your stunned or your not and usually you are. I would say 9 out of 10 times when I am hit with a attack with a stun secondary I'm stunned. Wish my holds were that reliable.

One last question, is confuse autohit? Seems like trollers can confuse me at will, never seems to not work.

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Was this RV PvP?

If it was in RV then the /Regen probably had Focused Accuracy.

The SS Tanker would have had Rage, which is pretty much like having FA for toHit purposes.

So, yeah, those guys would be nasty against you one-on-one.

Remember, nothing is different about how defense sets work in PvP. In fact, they've made them work in PvE like they've worked in PvP for a good while.

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That would be the problem. He has always been sub par in PVP nothing changed there. My SS/DA brute is 5x the PVP build as my Em/EA and that is without the Tier 9 Super Power like Overload. It still feels like defenses just aren't balanced in PVP like resitance. Powers like FA and rage and debuffs just seem to kill the concept.

Ran some missions in granville on Ruthless with my EM/EA Brute, as before he performed will. Noticed a very nice change with the +2's and bosses. Much better survivability.

Flip side, he is still horrible in PVP. Abyssmal even. 1v1 testing vrs a spines/regen, a inv/ss tank and a fire./kin troller.

Overload off, Spines/regen destroyed me in 5 attacks. He never missed once. Was running all sheilds, including energy cloak and combat jumping, but overload. All three slotted 40++SO's.

Overload on, lasted about 10 secs longer. He was hitting so often I only got my aid self offf once without being interrupted.

vs the tank, longer fight but KO blow got through and he mopped me up. Fight only lasted longer as he did less damage. He was hitting me around 85% of the time.


vs the troller he kited and kited and stacked slows and siphoned speed. Again he was hitting 80-85% of the time. Was a closer fight but every time I hit with energy transfer he would heal and kite some more. A passing scrapper finished me off.

In the gank base camping situation it was even worse. Had no lasting survivability.

Devs, great job on the PVE end but the PVP side needs huge work still. It still feels like a defense based set might as well not even have armors.

Ran my first mayhem mission this morning.Solo LV40 Ice/Fire dom set to malicious. ST.Martial contact. Rob the bank in brickstown. What a blast. Ran my timer up to over 30 mins by destruction and side tasks. Kidnapped one guy and raided a warehouse.

Only issue I had was with Jack Frost. With no controls on him and all the civies as targets he pretty much lost his little icey mind. He was running rampant everywhere trying to hold and blast civilians while I was up to my neck in police and longbow.

Other than that issue it was a real blast. Still had about 25 mins on the timer when I finally went and completed the mission as I had to leave for work. Could have spent hrs in there! Also ended up with two temp powers. A health bonus and a psionic attack.

Like I said, better than a kick in the [censored].

Really though, I'm sure my extra 8 points of damage has the tanks and scrappers shakin' in their boots. LV50 Stone Tank with earths embrace 3 slotted for heals = max HP of 3073 HP. A /regen scrapper regens more HP by sneezing that this boost gives us, and we have to get in melee range of AT's than can two shot us to deliver it. I can see it now:

Ahha take that Mr.Regen. What? Oh haha, smack smack dead Dominator.

Test Bed - Lv40 Ice fire dom vs lv 40 Council Marksman.

Only melee attack - Incinerate slotted 2 x 40+ damage. Attack does Damage over Time

On Live:
Incinerate: 10 ticks x 10.95 per
Fiery Embrace + Incinerate: 10 ticks x 16.43 per
Domination + Incinerate : 10 ticks x 15.79 per
Domination + Fiery embrace+Incinerate : 10 ticks x 21.27 per
On test Server:
Incinerate: 10 ticks x 11.73 per
Fiery Embrace + Incinerate: 10 ticks x 17.61
Domination + Incinerate : 10 ticks x 16.91
Domination + Fiery embrace+Incinerate : 10 ticks x 22.79

Blaze not affected.Fire Breath not effected. Do not have combustion so I'm unsure if this is considered melee or close AOE. Close rated attacks not affected by the buff.
Really, a difference of 8 points of damage between live and test. As my dad used to say "better than a kick in the [censored]" but not by much. Close attacks like Blaze and fire breath should get the benefits of this buff. Sets with multiple melee attacks like /thorn and /ice will benefit more than sets with only one melee attack.

It doesn't need it, you cant land a hold on a blaster running it.

Sorry, meant IndomitableWill. Blasters with Force of Nature bring pretty much the same issues though. Thank Goodness I get.......nothing in my Patron Powers that compares.

I am curious if a Dev can explain to me how I am supposed to beat a Controller running Force of Nature? He out holds me, out damages me and is completley immune to my holds and attacks. There is nothing in our Patron Powers that even comes close to this.

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Comprehensive list of AT's that can two shot a dom in Recluse's Victory:
electric/electric blaster
Ice/Energy Blaster
Energy/Energy Blaster
Fire/Energy blaster/
Ar/Energy Blaster
Broadsword scrapper without any criticals.
Katana Scrapper
Claws Scrapper
Spines Scrapper
/EM tank
Illusion Controllers with phantom army out.
Any troller with the fireball epic after being held.


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Im a dm/regen scrapper and im not in the list, so let me tell you my reaction from the opposite side of the equation.

Doms in RV are the only AT the feels like a different fight in i7. Everything else is pretty predictable, but doms seem changed. They are just as squishy as before, but their holds seem to break through more often. I think it's because of the toggle drop changes. Doms get the highest chance to drop toggles now, plus, if the mez protection toggle drops, then boom, you are held and ALL the toggles drop. No other AT can do this and it happens fairly often if you have two or more doms attacking you.

Now, having said that, doms still cant kill me. The only threat is if the dom is teamed.

So, if I were a dom, I would probably think that a) I need to team with at least one other dom, b) I need to team with at least one other dom and a damage dealer, and c) I need to team with one other dom and a damage dealer and someone who can taunt or otherwise protect me all the time.

Which means: doms are far too situational, unfriendly in pvp, and a pain in the rear. They need help.

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Nver ran into a DM/* scrapper but I'm sure if you gave it a go you could two shot me with a critical.

Last night I was teamed with another dom, 2 Brutes,1 Necro MM and a stalker. The tactics used on me were as follows:

Broadsword Scrapper does a jump by attack and nails me for 2/3 of my health with one non crit attack, his friend the spines scrapper follows right behind him with another fly by finishing me off in the second shot. They never even bothered to engage the brutes, no need when two shots drops me like a bad habit and jousting keeps them out of harms way.

Comprehensive list of AT's that can two shot a dom in Recluse's Victory:
electric/electric blaster
Ice/Energy Blaster
Energy/Energy Blaster
Fire/Energy blaster/
Ar/Energy Blaster
Broadsword scrapper without any criticals.
Katana Scrapper
Claws Scrapper
Spines Scrapper
/EM tank
Illusion Controllers with phantom army out.
Any troller with the fireball epic after being held.

AT's a Dom can to/three/four/five shot in Recluse's Victory:
.....NONE......

Was playing on a full team including brutes masterminds another dom and some stalkers. The Heros would jump into the team just to drop me and the other dom. They didn't even both with anyone else as we were such easy kills.

I'm sorry, in Sirens we do ok but in the new zone, forget about it. Even with a team we are just fodder.Actually had a regen scrapper that cared so little about us she hit an awaken/BF with both the Dom's standing right over her and got away......

Did some testing tonight flipping between live and test to compare. Sirens Call on live as its still the only zone with any players in it.
Live: was playing cat and mouse with a Spine/Regen Scrapper. Had domination ready before i engaed him. Result, never held him once the whole time it was up.Spammed hold after hold (block of ice). Never missed once but he was never held. On the flip side he immobilized me numerous times with Impale, and two shotted me with one being a critical. Had slightly better luck with a claws/regen scrapper. With out the ranged attack of impale my slows held him off of me till domination built. Dropped his mez toggle with incinerate and held him, but the damage output was nowhere near to his regen rate. Never got him below 1/2 HP and ran screaming like a school girl when Domination dropped.

Next, Had a Storm Electric Defender engage me, hit domination held her, she popped a BF, close to melee and shut down her hurricane, held her and beat her.

Test: Enaged a Energy/Energy Blaster. Domination built faster as I Jousted with him, making sure i stayed out of bonesmaher range. Was at about 80% domination when he managed to hit me, 3/4 health gone, stunned and defeated with the follow up attack. Payed my respects to the nurses and hit the zone again. Jumping around got chased down by yet another spines/regen. Similar to the live server only lasted even less time.

There were other fights but those stuck out in my mind. End of the night I was 1W - 15L.

Domination does build faster but still not fast enough. Also, even when its up, the chances of holding any hero with mez protection were pretty much zero with the in ability to drop off their toggles.Adding breakfrees into the equation and I'm afraid other than the slows in arctic air and shiver I wasn't bringing much to my team except as live bait.That would be the one team that would even have me. Most of my tells looking for a team were totally ignored.

The problem I see is that players are in constant motion. This tends to seperate teams abit. Due to our low HP and lack of any defense or mez protection, it is hard to stay alive log enough for a team member to back me up. No corruptor in the world can heal me fast enough to offset the massive damage from some scrapper and blaster melee attacks. The only rep I contributed to was when a hero was gloating over my dead body and the stalkers on my team would AS them.

Fishwork, I know personally I would love to see a succesful Dom in action. Would you be interested in running some training sessions in the Arena or one of the zones on test for the rest of us?

Well, like all Dom threads some good points and some disagreements. I took my 40 ice/fire onto test to give the changes a go. I find I can still have my bar refilled easily before Domination is recharged, even at 200 sec. Would be nice if they removed the recharge altogether and let us use it whenever its built up. Last time I checked Containment didn't have a recharge time, or gauntlet or even criticals for that matter.

For PVE, well I find my dom is good solo or on a team of 3-4.
Whats ironic, seeing as I have a 40 dom myself, is when playing my Brutes and building a team, I never look for doms. Weird but true. I know what doms are capable of but any corruptor set helps me to SMASH much faster than Doms.

The problem I see is that in a team setting while we can contribute, we don't increase the teams capabilities. Support AT has been tossed around in this thread, but what support do we bring. The classic support ATs: Defenders, Controllers, Tanks and Corruptors all bring things that support the team. Aggro control, buffs, debuffs, healing and rezzing.There are build types within these AT's that also bring some nice damage to the table.

Doms as a "support" AT don't bring any buffs, some builds have a slow as a debuff but most don't, no healing, no rezzing and I guess some aggro control as we seem to draw more than our fair share . This does concern me in the late game and what niche will Dom's fill and be wanted for?

The reasoning behind the I5 global defense reduction and I6 ED was that Defenders were feeling unneeded. The result, the inability for people to reach defense and damage caps without defender buffs and debuffs. Dominators need something similar. We need something that we bring that the others can't accomplish with out us. The only idea I can come up with at this point involves Domination. I would say to make us a welcome, nay, a desired addition to teams in the post 40 ( and even below) game would be unresistable holds when Domination is up.

Including AV's/Hero's

Solo, there is no way we could overcome an AV's regen rate, especially after the buffs they just received, but it would add a special something that only Dominators could bring to a team.

Now, PVP. I don't engage in PVP with my Dom very often. If I'm in need of that kinda pain I can always just run head first into a brick wall repeatedly, over and over.

I'm not sure how hard it would be code wise but what if when Domination wasn't up our secondary attacks got the same unresistable damage percentages as the Blasters do. Or better yet, what if we had a chance of a critical unresistable hold on the same scale as a scrapper's criticals. Even with BF's in the equation it would give us a chance to drop all toggles on a target, something no other AT brings to a PVP team.

While thinking of a role for Dominators, I tired to keep the balanace vision of no AT is required. I don't want my Dom to be the UBER, I just dream of having my own special role.

Ran a toon to lv 3 last night will continue on today. In the quick time i was on street hunting seemed to me it delivers some pretty decent damage. Not sure if this is more due to Snakes not resisting energy attacks like they do the smashing damage in SS or Stone.

Noticed a lag in activation vrs the recharge of the attack icons. Would click an attack when it was available and get the recharging message. Could have been server lag though.

Other than the minor end drain I didn't notice it providing any secondary effects like stun or knockup/back. Is there anything with some of the higher level attacks?

Thoughts on slotting end mod enhancments in the attacks and maybe being a stamina free build?

Waybreaker, just wanted to thank you for such an excellent quide. After running a blaster to 50, a tank to 40 and a Brute into the 20's i was looking for something different. After reading your guide I rolled a Ice/Fire Dominator last night. She is awesome! Skipped the immobilize powers as you suggested and took block of ice and shiver along with the fire blasts and concealment. She leveled to 9 in just over 3 1/2 hrs and each level I am liking her more! I just wish i had seen this guide on the weekend and rolled her in time for the jetpack.
I do have one question, what do you suggest for a travel power? I think fly would be helpful but that takes alot of slots to be of real use. Would SuperSpeed work well having hasten for recharging the holds and superspeed along with concealment to help stealth some missions?