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So now we are at a point were we are being nerfed even though small and why because we are uber no because the other villian ATs can not keep up with us in PvP.
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Again he didn't just say villain ATs. He said all ATs, that includes hero ATs also. And I don't think it is a matter of "keeping up" but more of a you are an olympic runner and the other ATs are crawling babies.
@Sufferance: Crying? maybe a strong term, but the thread title is, "Placate nerf" and the affects that it will have. It isn't a nerf though that is the thing. It is a bug fix to prevent the exploitation of an unintended power effect. Besides, a good stalker would not have needed to rely upon this glitch anyway. My comment about tohit debuffs getting nerfed was to show what an actual nerf looks like (in this patch at least).
That being said, the Grant Invis nerf is kind of interesting and is what I am paying attention to. Though it is a global AT nerf, it will affect pvp stalkers the most I think
It must be reapplied to gain the stealth benefit from it after a stalker (or anyone I assume with GI on them) attacks. Think about the work necessary to keep a stalker at the stealth cap now.
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That being said, the Grant Invis nerf is kind of interesting and is what I am paying attention to. Though it is a global AT nerf, it will affect pvp stalkers the most I think
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Question: Is this actually new, or are we just being told about this now? It's not recorded in the current patch notes, and _Castle_ doesn't talk about it like a future change.
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Just to parse Castle's response, though... does that mean that GI has to be reapplied every time someone attacks?
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To get teh Stealth benefit, yes.
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[censored] is the point of Grant Invis if I have to keep recast it then
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If you can't see the point to 100% immunity to all toggled attacks, debuffs, and controls, and guaranteed total invisibility when you're 11 feet from an opponent....
You CRAZY!!!!
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Additionally, this change was mostly aimed at the Bloody Bay and Siren's Call levels where Stalkers are so far above any other AT in Kill Count vs Death Count that it isn't even funny.
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And why is this? Because all the other villain ATs are subpar compared to stalkers for PvP. Villains burst damage is lousy in PvP except for stalkers. So of course stalkers will have more kills then any other villain AT.
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Think you misquoted him. He said "any other AT". That includes hero ATs too, right?
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Yeah - I would read it that way.
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Seriously though, what do you guys think? Whenever Im attacking a team, I usually get beat down right away. Stalkers always get the most hero aggro. Even with placate, attacking a team that has half a brain and surviving is tough. Nerfing placate lowers my already low chance of survival.
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I didn't read everything on this post but this part of the OP jumped out at me.
No offense to the OP, and I'm guessing he didn't mean this literally, but this kind of shows the wrong attitude to have if you ask me. How many ATs expect to jump a group and not take a beating? Maybe scrappers and tankers? Maybe brutes too? That's about it. Everyone else who tries this pretty much expects a beating. Why? Low hp and low or no RES means quick kill in most cases. Plus stalkers are always annoying everyone else. So it's part emotional and part smart to concentrate fire on a stalker when you see them.
The natural counter to that argument is that as a Stalker you are required to mix it up and melee. This means you have no other choice but to jump a group in order to do your job.
To some extent this is true but only if a group stays bunched up. I suppose a really good team will do that but not always. Besides, there are ways to separate targets so you can avoid getting a group attacking you.
Maybe I'm wrong but it's hard for me to see this as doom yet. At the very least it might mean that players need to be smarter though. We shall see.
Doesn't sound like a nerf, no. Just something that no one noticed, and is a bit counter-intuitive (since the GI icon stays on your bar even after you've attacked/been attacked). Good to know how it really works, though.
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Again he didn't just say villain ATs. He said all ATs, that includes hero ATs also. And I don't think it is a matter of "keeping up" but more of a you are an olympic runner and the other ATs are crawling babies
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Heard and understood.
But I am not sure what server you are on but on Justice I find more villians PvPing then I find heros. I think personaly alot of the unbalance in PvP has to do with CoV being new. I know myself and lot of my friends that play have not touched our Hero toons since CoV came out. I can only assume there are many others doing the same.
I would like to know if they took that into account when they came up with this overwhelmingly onesided acount of PvP activity and stalker kill %.
For example say there are 100 people playing on server X while they wait for CoV. These 100 people are all playing CoH now we know that CoH had 7 ATs they could roll 5 normal 2 epic. Now say CoV hit the stores and 50 of the 100 people playing CoH buy CoV. Now lets say of those 50 people 25 get hooked on CoV and do not play the heros that they played for over a year and got board of for a few months. So now we have 100 people that used to play CoH, 50 now play CoH and nothing else. 50 play both and 25 of the 50 that play both now only play CoV and have set their CoH toon aside for a bit.
So while all this is going the devs hop in and say ok lets see what AT is getting the most kills. And they say it is stalkers well thats a no brainer cause you have people that do not play CoH anymore or very rarely and what is the best villian toon to roll for PvP umm stalkers.
It almost makes me belive the dev did not really crunch #s here and just tossed a dart at a wall with the ATs listed and hit stalkers as they are played more in PvP then any other AT.
In other words if you had a player base of 300,000 people and now 200,000 play CoV more then CoH well no kidding there are more stalkers making kills then any other AT first there are 100,000 more people playing CoV then CoH and of those extra 100,000 alot roled stalkers the best PvP AT the villians offer.
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No offense to the OP, and I'm guessing he didn't mean this literally, but this kind of shows the wrong attitude to have if you ask me. How many ATs expect to jump a group and not take a beating?
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I can see it being read like that. Of course I dont mean attacking a whole team and surviving. I mean it in the sense that I attack someone on a team, then because I am a stalker I draw the entire team aggro and get gunned down. Most other players would die too from drawing a entire team's aggro, but being a stalker (and the only consistent threat from villains) I'll draw a ton of aggro every single time.
I doubt they're looking at the numbers without normalizing it somehow, and they are also talking about kills/deaths ratio. Stalkers kill a lot, but they rarely ever die. EVEN when they can be seen, a stalker isn't an 'easy' target. Not as hard to kill as a brute, admittedly, but harder to kill than anyone else.
I never realized that placate got me out of the view of more than one person... I always thought it just got the attention away from the person I used it on...
And maybe I'm just a really crappy stalker but I've never been able to do well solo... even if I do manage to get an AS off (which I've found to be bloody hard most of the time) I often draw alot of hero aggro...
I'm a Ninja Blade stalker btw... In no way was I trying to be uber when I rolled my stalker... I just wanted to have fun in PVP with a cool character... hmm
I get killed by scrappers and blappers quite alot in PVP...
and I've never felt overpowered at all...
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Ok I am going to say it and I am going to be flamed.
IT IS EACH AND EVERY SINGLE STALKERS FAULT THIS HAPPENED.
I have been saying from beta if the stalker comunity sits back and let the people spewing propaganda about this AT with no voice of reason they would win. So you all set back and flamed me every time I said it and now its going to happen so thanks for letting uninformed BS spewing toolboxs distroy our AT because you were too busy flaming me when i told you this would happen.
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To be honest, I never thought Placate should strongly affect anything but the target, since it autohits in the first place. Because of the way the mechanism is designed, it has to allow the stalker to crit anything, it can't make the target itself vulnerable to crits. But Placating one target and becoming untargettable by everything everywhere (short of overpowering +perception which would nullify hide itself anyway) seemed conceptually wrong to me anyway.
And because of the way perception and aggro affect NPC critters, stalkers never really had the ability to disappear from other targets in this sense in PvE anyway: its essentially a PvP change.
Changing Placate to require a tohit roll shuffles the problem around a bit: if you are surrounded by several targets, you could simply target the one with the lowest defense, and still get the full stealth behavior against all of them, and still crit any of them (of course, only the targetted one would have the placate status effect on them). That seems odd behavior to me.
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That being said, the Grant Invis nerf is kind of interesting and is what I am paying attention to. Though it is a global AT nerf, it will affect pvp stalkers the most I think
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Question: Is this actually new, or are we just being told about this now? It's not recorded in the current patch notes, and _Castle_ doesn't talk about it like a future change.
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It's been there since Suppression for Stealth powers was added.
Thats what i am hoping too man.
I really am.
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No offense to the OP, and I'm guessing he didn't mean this literally, but this kind of shows the wrong attitude to have if you ask me. How many ATs expect to jump a group and not take a beating?
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I can see it being read like that. Of course I dont mean attacking a whole team and surviving. I mean it in the sense that I attack someone on a team, then because I am a stalker I draw the entire team aggro and get gunned down. Most other players would die too from drawing a entire team's aggro, but being a stalker (and the only consistent threat from villains) I'll draw a ton of aggro every single time.
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That's what I figured you meant (thanks for not getting mad) but you'd be surprised what others think in the other boards. For example, I've seen far too many defenders whine about how they are nothing in PvP but big fat targets and their only purpose is to boost stalker kills. Meanwhile you come here and see how Hurricane and Clear Mind are just ruining a stalker's life.
It can be hard to filter all the forum traffic if you don't have a perspective from all the different points of views.
This is pretty silly. I personally know that as a Stalker, I get slaughtered plenty in Siren's Call. I also know that the only thing that prevents me from getting repeatedly ganked is Placate.
Aren't there more important things to nerf? Storms? PFF? Regen for Scrappers? EM for Stalkers?
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I personally know that as a Stalker, I get slaughtered plenty in Siren's Call.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one... Was starting to think I just sucked!
Still, all this anti-stalker hysteria out there makes me want to level up my corr or a brute for use in PVP just so I don't have to hear "oh look, another stalker" again...
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So previously placate was rehiding a stalker against many people within a certain range( ie. AOE PLACATE), I noticed this once when a non-hidden stalker was testing with a few of us. When he placated the scrapper my blaster lost sight of him too.
Sounds like they fixed a bug that was making a power work in a manner that was not intended.
<off-topic portion snipped>
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/agree
I strongly disagree with giving placate an acc check in PvP, due to reasons stated on another thread and personal experience. It has too long of a recharge and affects too few targets to be compared to taunt, as I have seen it done.
On an awkwardly delusioned optimism, this will make me feel just slightly better playing my /ninj next to a /sr. While he stands in the middle of a crowd, getting hit by nothing and a stray grenade wanders over to the corruptor next to me outside of a fight... and hits me, of course... I know that, if it comes to PvP, he can placate one mob... I can smoke flash and blinding powder... if I haven't already been smacked down.
What I would like to see is stalkers doing damage on par with scrappers for their normal attacks. Of course, that may just be my MA stalker talking.
And I agree and if this was it the end no more nerf no one shot changeing I would over look this too.
And to be 100% real here the 2 nerf they are adding will not effect me in the least. I just fear that if we as a community sit here and let these 2 happen when they realy do not change much and really will not effect most PvP stalkers it is just the start of a snowballing nerf quest to distroy our AT.
The 2 thing are minor but it only takes a small stone to start an avalanch that can distroy a city. Once it gets rolling it can not be stoped I do not want to see this happen to this AT or this game cause once this AT is made usless in PvP the next one will be put on the choping block to be nerfed too.
Then were going to end up with the same kinda mess that SWG did. first was the nerf BH so they did then it was nerf CMs so they did then Jedi then rifle then carbs then Drs then medic then the hole game became one big carbo copy class using different weapons with the same skills.
Now 32 awsome new interesting classes have been distroyed and left with 9 weak shells of their formerselves classes and 75% of the people playing quit.
And it all started over and I " No big deal its just a small change to the BH class"
I would hate to see CoX end up being a 3 class shell of itself because the dev get sick of endless pointless nerf crys and distroy the game to the point that knowbody can complain cause all you can be Hero or villians Is One melee AT one ranged AT or One healer AT. But maybe everyone would be happy after all there will be no stalkers and that is the point after all right?
Thank you my point was not lost.
Using SWG in an arguement about nerfs is like using Hitler in an arguement about anything else.
Nothing the community says will prevent further nerfs if the developers feel they're warranted.
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This is pretty silly. I personally know that as a Stalker, I get slaughtered plenty in Siren's Call. I also know that the only thing that prevents me from getting repeatedly ganked is Placate.
Aren't there more important things to nerf? Storms? PFF? Regen for Scrappers? EM for Stalkers?
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Storm got nerfed today too. And theyre just as unhappy as you are. Does that make you feel any better?
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75% of Hide is 375 -perception.
Grant Invis is 611 -perception.
Stealth is 390 -perception.
So it just means that a Stalker needs to have a friend or a Buffbot to do the same thing. It won't actually prevent the problem.
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Hide Suppresses for 10 seconds when you attack or are attacked.
So does Stealth.
Grant Invisibility and Group Invisibility cancel the stealth bonus all together when you attack or are attacked (you keep the +Def though.)
EDIT: Additionally, this change was mostly aimed at the Bloody Bay and Siren's Call levels where Stalkers are so far above any other AT in Kill Count vs Death Count that it isn't even funny. In higher level PvP zones, players have plenty of options of dealing with Stalkers, which *should* force Stalkers to Team more.
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That sounds an aweful lot like a dev is saying Stalkers are overpowered in Siren's Call...but surely that can't be the case because we all know that stalkers aren't unbalanced (as evident by previous repeated assurances of said stalkers)
Formerly "Back Alley Brawler"
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This is pretty silly. I personally know that as a Stalker, I get slaughtered plenty in Siren's Call. I also know that the only thing that prevents me from getting repeatedly ganked is Placate.
Aren't there more important things to nerf? Storms? PFF? Regen for Scrappers? EM for Stalkers?
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Storm got nerfed today too. And theyre just as unhappy as you are. Does that make you feel any better?
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Slightly!
Still, this is an unnecessary nerf; it takes TONS of work to get away after killing. Stalkers may have the highest kill-to-death ratios, but in my experience, it's a DIFFICULT archetype to play. We've been practicing to have good timing and a good attack chain and general skills, as opposed to the simple click-click-click tactics of other melee archetypes. Additionally, most of us (coughNOTENERGYMELEEcough) cannot take down anything above a Blaster, Controller, Kheldian (as squiddie), or a Defender without outside help, and there are even exceptions there, not to mention ANY advantage we have is pretty much negated by a pool power (Tactics).
We've been forced to adapt to Stormies (not so much any more), Perception, and the general hatred towards Stalkers in general. Why not force them to adapt to our stealth, as they already have been? This nerf will just increase the other side's ability to gank us as a team, which I do not regard as a good thing. There's plenty of that already.
Stalkers take more skill to play than is widely assumed, and I don't think it's fair that we're getting a nerf because we're good at what we do.
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Just to parse Castle's response, though... does that mean that GI has to be reapplied every time someone attacks?
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To get teh Stealth benefit, yes.
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[censored] is the point of Grant Invis if I have to keep recast it then